Why is everything in this game so bland?

[SlayerDorian]

As expected Volourn, you pontificate without offering any proof.

 

Now, there is Right and Wrong, certainly. You are most likely confusing this with Good and Evil.

 

Prove your point. Offer ingame facts that support the existence of Good and Evil in the PoE gameworld. Show us your evidence.

 

Don't point to things and measure them with your opinion - like "so as so does so and so, I consider that Good/Evil" because that is just opinion and not a fact or evidence of such.

Right and wrong are just social constructs.  Incest might be perfectly acceptable in some fictional society. 

 

However, knowingly doing something harmful to someone because you will get some personal gain is evil - always.

 

Of course it can become more complicated when going beyond harming an innocent.  Wars, harming people for funzies vs. hunting animals for food and clothing ect...  But the core of it remains.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[Volourn]

"As expected Volourn, you pontificate without offering any proof."

 

My proof is the game itself.Good and evil exists. As Slayer points out, 'point of view' of what a certain society approves or dissaproves of what is right or wrong varies.

 

It should be pointed out that the characters very much work on the good/neutral/evil line even if alignment itself doesn't exist. Just look at the options the game gives you when dealing with the lord's niece. That is certainly good vs evil.

 

But, hey, keep making up nonsense. The game doesn't have 'good and evil'. L0L

[Luj1]

The game doesn't have 'good and evil'. L0L

 

 

He is right. And its not because there's no alignment. Seems like you didn't even understand the way story is presented. You should play Skyrim that's your level

[WebShaman]

@SlayerDorian

 

Your example has nothing to do with evil, you know. By your definition, all of Nature is evil (doing harmful things for personal gain).

 

And in the game itself, there is no reference to any Good vs Evil conflict. None at all.

 

You see, Nature contains no good or evil. These are terms that us humans have given certain viewpoints. And PoE mirrors this.

 

PoE goes further, however. In our world, those who believe in the Christian & God related faiths have this universal viewpoint of a Good vs Evil conflict (sin yadda yadda). PoE doesn't have this.

 

@Volourn -try harder.

[Volourn]

"Seems like you didn't even understand the way story is presented."
 

Are you trying to pretend the main villain/antagonist wasn't evil? COME ON.

[SlayerDorian]

@SlayerDorian

 

Your example has nothing to do with evil, you know. By your definition, all of Nature is evil (doing harmful things for personal gain).

 

And in the game itself, there is no reference to any Good vs Evil conflict. None at all.

 

You see, Nature contains no good or evil. These are terms that us humans have given certain viewpoints. And PoE mirrors this.

 

PoE goes further, however. In our world, those who believe in the Christian & God related faiths have this universal viewpoint of a Good vs Evil conflict (sin yadda yadda). PoE doesn't have this.

 

@Volourn -try harder.

An act, by itself, is not good or evil.  It is the intent behind those acts.  Just because the word evil is not spoken or written does not mean that evil is not present.  There does not need to be an evil god for evil to exist.  In nature, most things are done for survival.  Generally, animals do not have the capacity for evil.  So, you are correct about nature not having good or evil. 

 

Survival instinct and personal gain are very much different.  Killing someone to take their fancy boots is evil.  You didn't need those boots to survive, nor was there any other reason to kill that person.  If you were on an icy tundra, had no footwear and were going to die of frostbite or something and there was no other solution, then it is a matter of survival to get those boots. 

 

When a creature has the capacity to be aware of the harm they are causing, knows it is not the only choice, but does it anyway for money, fame, ect or even enjoys the suffering of others just for that - that is evil.  There is no question about it.  You can call it whatever you want, it is always the same thing.

[WebShaman]

Because he is not - you may consider Thaos so from your worldview (our modern world) but from the gameworld of your character, there is no Good vs Evil conflict - there isn't en a hint. There are no God's dedicated to evil (like X, God of Evil) or Good, for that matter.

 

Thaos is cruel, heartless, and a plethora of other negative characteristics (a monster), and we outside of the gameworld may judge him with our beliefs, values, whatever...

 

But he is certainly not "going to Hell to burn for eternity in a lake of fire" because there is no hell. There is no afterlife "punishment", and there is no sin. There is no Good vs Evil and no Superior Being judging a soul accordingly.

 

I see you are really struggling with these concepts.

 

@SlaverDorian - no, not true. In a society that values property rights, one would be wrong to take the fancy shoes against the will of another for personal gain.

 

But what about one without such values? Why is that now "evil"? No-one was harmed.

 

This process can be applied to any extent.

 

Good and Evil are not Natural properties, they are meta-philosophical and to an extent societal, constructs.

 

In PoE, we do not even have reference to a Good vs Evil conflict of any sort. From what perspective are you labeling what happens in the gameworld? Do you have evidence that one of the "gods" is doing so?

 

"I am God X, and I decree that harming for self gain is EVIL!"

 

Where is that stated?

Edited April 22, 2015 by WebShaman

[SlayerDorian]

"Seems like you didn't even understand the way story is presented."

 

Are you trying to pretend the main villain/antagonist wasn't evil? COME ON.

It could be agued that he was doing what he believed was for the greater good.  The thing that tips me that he is evil, though, is that he does not seem to be bothered by killing innocent people.  He, himself being evil, probably made it easier for him to believe that such acts are in the nature of people and they need something greater than them telling them to do better.

[Dadalama]

 

"Seems like you didn't even understand the way story is presented."

 

Are you trying to pretend the main villain/antagonist wasn't evil? COME ON.

It could be agued that he was doing what he believed was for the greater good.  The thing that tips me that he is evil, though, is that he does not seem to be bothered by killing innocent people.  He, himself being evil, probably made it easier for him to believe that such acts are in the nature of people and they need something greater than them telling them to do better.

 

well on the other hand, he could have just been doing it for so long it no longer effected him.

[SlayerDorian]

 

 

"Seems like you didn't even understand the way story is presented."

 

Are you trying to pretend the main villain/antagonist wasn't evil? COME ON.

It could be agued that he was doing what he believed was for the greater good.  The thing that tips me that he is evil, though, is that he does not seem to be bothered by killing innocent people.  He, himself being evil, probably made it easier for him to believe that such acts are in the nature of people and they need something greater than them telling them to do better.

 

well on the other hand, he could have just been doing it for so long it no longer effected him.

 

That is certainly possible.  Probably quite likely.  But at some point, he must have been able to see his choices with fresh eyes.  He gave in to an easier path, easier because he believed it was the most assured way.  And this path came at a great cost.  He paid with lives he had no right to.  (not counting willing sacrifices, just things like soul theft, mass killings, causing wars, stuff like that)

[WebShaman]

That does not make him evil! It makes him cruel, heartless, etc. A monster.

 

You seem to be having a problem grasping the concept as well.

 

He is a bad man. A bad person, he does and has done bad, even monsterous, atrocious things.

 

But not evil. Because in the gameworld, there is no Good vs Evil conflict, no sin. No punishment in the "afterlife" and no heaven, either. Souls are "recycled", over and over and over...you can't really "kill" someone, either. You just destroy the material shell. The soul goes on...

 

Now, apparently there are ways to even interrupt this natural process, but very few have such knowledge or power to do so.

 

And so, one can label Thaos bad, etc. It is really what you mean. But with what ingame authority are you labelling him evil?

Edited April 22, 2015 by WebShaman

[SlayerDorian]

That does not make him evil! It makes him cruel, heartless, etc. A monster.

 

You seem to be having a problem grasping the concept as well.

 

He is a bad man. A bad person, he does and has done bad, even monsterous, atrocious things.

 

But not evil. Because in the gameworld, there is no Good vs Evil conflict, no sin. No punishment in the "afterlife" and no heaven, either. Souls are "recycled", over and over and over...you can't really "kill" someone, either. You just destroy the material shell. The soul goes on...

 

Now, apparently there are ways to even interrupt this natural process, but very few have such knowledge or power to do so.

 

And so, one can label Thaos bad, etc. It is really what you mean. But with what ingame authority are you labelling him evil?

The same authority that you can label someone bad, cruel, or heartless.  It is a word to communicate a concept that explains actions someone has and will likely continue to perform - just like cruel, heartless, or bad person.  Additionally, an explanation of how this person will handle given situations - estimating what their thought process likely is. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[WebShaman]

Ah no.

 

My authority is rather limited to call him bad. Certainly he has murdered, done cruel acts. I think that his victims would consider this as "bad" (re: negative).

 

My character in the game wasn't really one of these victims, of course. Therefore my character has little authority to label him bad from personal experience.

 

But what he has done to others, yeah I am sure his victims consider him bad.

 

But as no-one has a concept of Evil in the PoE gameworld, they naturally don't label such so (and there are no references ingame to such, really).

 

Also, you can't get points in "evil" or "good" - you get instead points in benevolent, cruel, aggressive.

 

No evil, no good.

 

You still are not grasping what I am referencing, the concept, are you?

Edited April 22, 2015 by WebShaman

[Volourn]

"Because he is not - you may consider Thaos so from your worldview (our modern world) but from the gameworld of your character, there is no Good vs Evil conflict - there isn't en a hint. There are no God's dedicated to evil (like X, God of Evil) or Good, for that matter.

Thaos is cruel, heartless, and a plethora of other negative characteristics (a monster), and we outside of the gameworld may judge him with our beliefs, values, whatever...

But he is certainly not "going to Hell to burn for eternity in a lake of fire" because there is no hell. There is no afterlife "punishment", and there is no sin. There is no Good vs Evil and no Superior Being judging a soul accordingly."

 

Good and evil has nothing to do with religion or gods you silly boy.

 

 

"My authority is rather limited to call him bad."

 

Bad = evil. he is evil.

 

PERIOD.

[WebShaman]

No, bad is not the same as evil.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that?

 

How old are you?

 

Seriously.

[Volourn]

Yes it is.

[SlayerDorian]

Evil does not need a point system

Evil does not need god

Evil does not need a game mechanic

Evil does not need a label

Evil is as evil does

 

The failure to grasp, here, is most definitely not on my end.

[Dadalama]

Oh god this is still going?
 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=definition+of+evil

 

e·vil

ˈēvəl/

adjective

 

1. 1.

   profoundly immoral and malevolent.

   "his evil deeds"

   synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt,iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;More

    

    

    

    

      

   •  

      
   •  

      

      

      

      

        
   •  

      

      

      

        

noun

 

1. 1.

   profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

   "the world is stalked by relentless evil"

   synonyms: wickedness, bad, badness, wrongdoing, sin, ill, immorality, vice,iniquity, degeneracy, corruption, depravity, villainy, nefariousness,malevolence; More

    

    

    

 

Now we can go down the rabbit hole of moral philosophy but when most people talk about morals, they mean the general average morality of their culture. It's as good a word as any to use because words are tools for communication.

[Rosveen]

I don't see why the concept of good and evil needs to be linked to the existence of a divine being. Good and evil are social constructs, often with religious roots, but religions are also man-made, so it makes no difference.

 

Someone should just pull the dialogues out of game files and check if good or evil are ever mentioned by NPCs. If they are, it would instantly put this discussion to rest.

[WebShaman]

There is only one direct reference to evil that I know of ingame (in the name of a weapon, which may be a backer item which would explain it).

 

The only other reference I know of is "Saint" from The Saint's War (which is a very strange term ingame seeing as there are no Saint's in PoE).

[Primislas]

Someone should just pull the dialogues out of game files and check if good or evil are ever mentioned by NPCs. If they are, it would instantly put this discussion to rest.

 

Can't disobey an authoritatively cute avatar.

- The Grieving Mother draws back in horror. "What evil is this? To murder a child over a matter of politics?" Her face twists into a mask of fury. "We cannot allow this corruption... this madness... to thrive."

- Her face is carved with stern, rigid lines. "We must not do this, Watcher... We have come to save the children... the future of the Dyrwood. I will not stand by you if you do this evil."

- "Such evil this crisis has wrought... to force a child on the daughter of one's own blood... unthinkable."

- The Grieving Mother's hands fly to her ears, and her mouth frames a silent scream. Only her mind speaks. "Evils that magnify tragedies... this is what we must stop..."

- The Grieving Mother closes her eyes and gives you a single deep nod. "It has been an honor to journey with you... to help you purge Thaos' evil from the Dyrwood."

- "The rîow of my circle believe the Autumn Stelgaer to be a heinous abomination - it is said that if it eats you, your soul is invariably lost. As this was my first and most intuitive form, they deemed me a carrier of its evil."

- "And what even defines 'help' in this situation? Even if they tell me what I think to be true - that it's just fur color, not some mark of evil - then I can't exactly take that news back to my circle and expect them to believe it."

- "I [Watcher] need to fix the evil he's [Thaos] perpetrated on the Dyrwood."

- Aloth shakes his head. "Men and women turn to this evil to cure Hollowborn? Madness."

- "And now... he has joined Kolsc against our lord, and lingers in the dungeons. I fear he may already have fallen victim to Osrya's evil designs."

- "I used to spend a lot of time reasoning about good and evil, right and wrong." (Watcher's background dialogue option with Calisca.)

- "The children they keep down here... pure evil in their eyes."

- "That evil woman will pay for her crimes over a dozen lifetimes."

- He pauses. When he speaks again, his voice sounds dry and cracked. "It's a sickness. Some evil polluting my soul. I've tried everything, but watching Lumdala's performances soothes me in ways those treatments at the sanitarium never can."

- "If what I've told you about that evil, deceitful man hasn't swayed you, I don't know what else to say." He turns back to his papers. "Trust him at your own peril."

 

This is pretty much it for evil. Now if you'll excuse me, I feel I'm in a dire urgent need to find something better to do with my spare time. ><

Edited April 23, 2015 by Primislas

[Rosveen]

You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir. Thank you!

[WebShaman]

I agree.  I never played with GM, so I never had those references.

 

Thank you.