Does secondary (elemental) damage ignore elemental damage reduction?

[Night Driver]

Does the additional damage from elemental lash enchantments (burning, corrode, etc.) ignore whatever DR an enemy has against elemental forms of damage? Looking at the way attack damage of this type is calculated, it appears as if elemental lash damage is simply 25% additional damage appended to the end of the damage calculation.

 

What this means is that it doesn't matter at all what type of elemental lash damage you enchant a weapon with because they all apply a flat 25% additional damage regardless of an enemies elemental damage resistances.

 

Is this correct or do I have this all wrong?

Edited April 11, 2015 by Night Driver

[steelshark]

What I would like to see is, with the lash enchantments the lowest of all apllziing DR types is chosen.

eg.: Sword with Burning lash goes against the lowest of pierce/slash/fire.

However I suspect that the lash damage has to against its corresponding DR alone, which would be very disappointing.

[Aron Times]

Don't quote me on this, but someone did some tests and found that the lash enchantments (25% bonus damage of that element type) are affected by the appropriate resistance at 25%. For example, if your burning lash deals 4 damage, and the enemy has 4 fire resistance, you deal 3 fire damage to that enemy (since 25% of 4 fire resist is 1 fire resist).

 

My answer is inaccurate. Look at the posts directly below mine for the right answer.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Aron Times

[Daemonjax]

Tests that I've seen show that the secondary damage enchantments do an additional 25% of weapon damage done AFTER being modified by DR (so pierce, crush, slash DR applies).  

 

The additional 25% of that damage ignores all DR completely, so the enchantment type (fire, corrosive, shock, frost) is only flavor text and has no mechanics attached to it other than the capability of being modified by other talents which increase damage of that type.

 

Example:

 

40 damage - 10 DR = 30 + (30 * 0.25) = 30 weapon damage + 7.5 secondary effect damage = 37.5 total damage (a 25% damage increase)

 

If you had an ability which granted +20% burn damage, would that result in (30 * (0.25 + .20)) or (30 * .25 * 1.2) additional damage. I don't know.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Luckmann]

Tests that I've seen show that the secondary damage enchantments do an additional 25% of weapon damage done AFTER being modified by DR (so pierce, crush, slash DR applies).  

 

The additional 25% of that damage ignores all DR completely, so the enchantment type (fire, corrosive, shock, frost) is only flavor text and has no mechanics attached to it other than the capability of being modified by other talents which increase damage of that type.

 

Example:

 

40 damage - 10 DR = 30 + (30 * 0.25) = 30 weapon damage + 7.5 secondary effect damage = 37.5 total damage (a 25% damage increase)

 

If you had an ability which granted +20% burn damage, would that result in (30 * (0.25 + .20)) additional damage?  I don't know.

 

This.

 

Except one thing. No, Talents that increase Elemental damage does not increase Lash damage.

 

Also, for all paladins out there, Flames of Devotion acts as a Lash, so.. don't take Scion of Flame, thinking it'll increase your Flame damage.

 

The mechanics of lashes are very inconsistent and very unclear on how they are supposed to work, to the point where I'd judge them broken and bugged, but based on what we know, it all seems intentional. It's been a known issue for a long time and the developers know about it, but have never commented on it (as far as I know).

[Daemonjax]

No, Talents that increase Elemental damage does not increase Lash damage.

 

Well, that's rather inconsistent.  I didn't expect the type to be pure fluff.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Night Driver]

The additional 25% of that damage ignores all DR completely, so the enchantment type (fire, corrosive, shock, frost) is only flavor text and has no mechanics attached to it other than the capability of being modified by other talents which increase damage of that type.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Talents that increase Elemental damage does not increase Lash damage.

Thanks for clarifying this information. I hadn't thought about how elemental damage boosting talents would affect lash enchantments, but I would have eventually, and now I don't have to go searching for an answer. Edited April 12, 2015 by Night Driver

[Epsilon Rose]

Tests that I've seen show that the secondary damage enchantments do an additional 25% of weapon damage done AFTER being modified by DR (so pierce, crush, slash DR applies).  

 

The additional 25% of that damage ignores all DR completely, so the enchantment type (fire, corrosive, shock, frost) is only flavor text and has no mechanics attached to it other than the capability of being modified by other talents which increase damage of that type.

 

Example:

 

40 damage - 10 DR = 30 + (30 * 0.25) = 30 weapon damage + 7.5 secondary effect damage = 37.5 total damage (a 25% damage increase)

 

If you had an ability which granted +20% burn damage, would that result in (30 * (0.25 + .20)) or (30 * .25 * 1.2) additional damage. I don't know.

Huh. That is both interesting and annoying. That would make Flames of Devotion much worse on a blunderbuss, right?

[hilfazer]

Don't quote me on this, but someone did some tests and found that the lash enchantments (25% bonus damage of that element type) are affected by the appropriate resistance at 25%. For example, if your burning lash deals 4 damage, and the enemy has 4 fire resistance, you deal 3 fire damage to that enemy (since 25% of 4 fire resist is 1 fire resist).

 

My answer is inaccurate. Look at the posts directly below mine for the right answer.

 

No, Your answer is correct, actually.

Look what 25% corrosive lash did to my monk:

 

http://cloud-2.steamusercontent.com/ugc/29612972902483328/3D19D0D7364C8768092237B5AA722CD2147AC13D/

 

50% more damage. The "+25% damage after DR calculation" is not true then.

 

Target had 8 acid DR.

Unreduced attack damage is 27.4.

25% of 27.4 is 6.85. 25% of 8 is 2.

Which means damage from corrode should be 6.85 - 2 = 4.85. Actual corrode damage was 5 as we can see on the image. Game did some rounding, it seems.

 

And this is how OEI intended it to work.

[Elerond]

At least in current patch Lash damage is reduced by DR of that type.

 

For example when you do 31.8 damage with slash weapon with corrode lash against armor that has slash DR 21 and corrode DR 11, damage that you weapon does is 10.8 slash + 5.2 corrode total 16 points. And as you can see 5.2 is not 25% of 10.8 or 31.8 but it is such from 20.8 (31.8-11). So at least in my testing of my party's weapons against my party members it seem to work as you would think that it works.

 

EDIT: Lash damage don't seem to have minimum damage, so if somebody hits your 21 corrode and pierce resistance armor with 13 points of damage they will only do 2.6 points of pierce damage and no additional damage from lash. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Elerond

[temek]

My tests suggested as well that you take take 25% of base damage done before DR is applied and then reduce it by 25% of the DR of the applicable DR type (regardless of how much % of damage is added so 25% of DR applies to Flames of Devotion +50% burn dmg as well). Seemed like there is no minimum damage for the secondary damage so your lashes can sometimes do 0 extra damage, especially if you attack with fast, low base damage weapons like Blunderbuss/fast 1-handers. Just seems like another effect that heavily favours hard-hitting slow weapons like 2-handers, Sabres and reloading ranged weapons except blunderbuss. In fact lashes with Blunderbuss often adds 0 extra damage if you attack against even middling DR targets, just test it shooting Blunderbuss with a lash enchant at a tank wearing exceptional/superb plate mail and you see that's the case. If weapon has DR bypass effect on it or you are using Vulnerable Attack/Penetrating Shot, it doesn't apply to the secondary damage. 

 

For example, normal Blunderbuss (6-9 piercing, 6 projectiles, 4 DR bypass) with Corroding Lash (+25% dmg as Corrode) against enemy with 10 DR piercing, 6 DR corrode, Penetrating Shot active. 

 

1 Hit, rolls 8 dmg -> 8-(10-4-5) = 7.0 piercing dmg, 8*0,25 - 6/4 = 0.5 corrode dmg

1 Graze, rolls 6 dmg -> 6-(10-4-5) = 5.0 piercing dmg, 6*0,25 - 6/4 = 0 corrode dmg

1 Crit, rolls 12 dmg -> 12-(10-4-5) = 11.0 piercing dmg, 12*0,25 - 6/4 = 1.5 0 corrode dmg

3 misses

 

Total dmg: 7+5+11= 25 piercing, 0.5+0+1.5 = 2 corrode

 

As you can see the +25% corrode lash didn't add anywhere near 25% extra, but with heavyhitting weapons like Arquebus, 2-handers, probably Sabre as well you get 15-25% extra damage from the lashes pretty consistently.

Edited April 12, 2015 by temek

[Daemonjax]

At least in current patch Lash damage is reduced by DR of that type.

 

For example when you do 31.8 damage with slash weapon with corrode lash against armor that has slash DR 21 and corrode DR 11, damage that you weapon does is 10.8 slash + 5.2 corrode total 16 points. And as you can see 5.2 is not 25% of 10.8 or 31.8 but it is such from 20.8 (31.8-11). So at least in my testing of my party's weapons against my party members it seem to work as you would think that it works.

 

EDIT: Lash damage don't seem to have minimum damage, so if somebody hits your 21 corrode and pierce resistance armor with 13 points of damage they will only do 2.6 points of pierce damage and no additional damage from lash. 

 

 

So I decided to test lash myself using a torch (burning lash: +10% burn damage) against the wolves in the tutorial (those poor wolves!):

 

 

11.9 - 4 = 7.9 (weapon damage) + 0.2 (burn) ==> 8.1 (total)

 

The only formula I can come up with to explain .2 burn damage is:

 

11.9 * .10 = 1.19 - (4 * .25) = .19 (rounded for the gui to .2)

 

 

So it's:

 

(weaponDamageBeforeDR * secondaryDamagePercentage) - (targetDR / 4)

 

Wolves have no special resistance to fire, so it probably uses whatever its fire DR is (in this case it's 4 for every damage type).

 

 

This matches what Elerond observed: (31.8 * .25) - (11 / 4) = 7.95 - 2.75 = 5.2

 

Out of all the possible ways they could calculate it, I like this way the best -- except for the fact it subtracts 1/4 of the target's DR even though lash only does 10% of weapon damage.  This may have unintended consequences, besides just making torches a garbage weapon.  It was probably done differently in other versions.

 

EDIT: I see that Temek said the same thing.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Night Driver]

So, we're saying it doesn't ignore elemental damage reduction?

[famousringo]

Just adding another data point.

 

I did some testing, and it looks like a Druid with both Wildstrike talents will face about 50% of DR of the appropriate type.

[peddroelm]

to put the matter to rest (each lash effect goes against 0.25 *Target's DR of the appropriate type, separately.. Weapon DR Bypass does not apply for lash damage )

 

Fun with 2h handed monk and lash multipliers ..

 

Damage multiplier 1 +  0.27 (might) + 0.15 (fine weapon) + 0.15 (two handed weapon)  + 0.2 (savage attack)

25% corrosion

 

Ex 1

 

hit vs Troll DR 8    (16 crush  4 fire,corrode)   .. 2 handed staff of corrosion ..

 

32.2 - DR (16.0)= 16.2 Crush + 12.1 Crush + 13.5 Burn + 1.2 Shock + 7 Corrode = 50

 

lash ("multiplicative") damage

32.2 * 0.5 - 16*0.25 =12.1   // 50% crush Torments reach

32.2 * ( 0.05 * 9) - 4*0.25  = 13.49 // 9 tuning wheel wounds

32.2 * 0.1 - 8*0.25 = 1.22  // lightning strikes (sucks)

32.2 * 0.25 - 4*0.25 = 7.05 // 25% corrode  on staff

 

Ex 2

crit vs Sporeling 7 (14 crush, 3.5 corrode)   2 handed staff of corrosion

 

37.6 - DR (14.0) = 23.6 Crush + 15.3 Crush + 15.2 Burn + 2 Shock + 8.5 Corrode = 65

 

lash ("multiplicative") damage

37.6 * 0.5 - 14 * 0.25 = 15.3 // 50% torments reach

37.6 * (0.05*9) - 7 * 0.25 = 15.17 // 9 turning wheel wounds

37.6 * 0.1 - 7 * 0.25 = 2.01 // lightning strikes (still sucks)

37.6 * 0.25 - 3.5 * 0.25 = 8.525 // 25% corrode on staff

 

Marked Prey example 1 (40% lash)

 

Warhammer vs Drake  (marked prey debuff) . pierce DR 13.5 , crush DR 18.. 

21 - DR (13.5)  = 7.5 Pierce + 3.9 Crush! 

Here's how the marked prey lash damage is calculated .. 21 * 0.4 - TargetDR * 0.25..

 

You'd expect warhammer to pick the pierce DR (lower)  and thus get 21 * 0.4 - 13.5*0.25 = 5.025 ..

Instead, for some oversight, game picks target's crush DR (which was higher than pierce DR)

 21 * 0.4 - 18 * 0.25 = 3.9 as shown in combat log

 

Marked Prey example 2

 

Market target Estoc (5 DR bypass) vs 18 Pierce DR  Market target

23.2 - DR (18-5)= 10.2 Pierce + 4.8 Pierce

23.2 * 0.4 - 18 * 0.25= 4.78

Had the DR bypass effect of the Estoc affected the lash damage the bonus damage should've been

23.2*0.4- (18-5)*0.25 = 6.03

 

/// code tags have combat log lines

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[b0rsuk]

Just adding another data point.

 

I did some testing, and it looks like a Druid with both Wildstrike talents will face about 50% of DR of the appropriate type.

 

So maybe it's proportional to the lash percentage ? That would make sense.

 

+25% damage: reduced by 25% of DR

+50% damage: reduced by 50% of DR

[peddroelm]

So maybe it's proportional to the lash percentage ? That would make sense.

 

read post above

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[b0rsuk]

 

So maybe it's proportional to the lash percentage ? That would make sense.

 

+25% damage: reduced by 25% of DR

+50% damage: reduced by 50% of DR

 

read post above

 

Is this something from actual combat log, or something you've just made up without verifying ?

[peddroelm]

 

read post above

 

Is this something from actual combat log, or something you've just made up without verifying ?

 

what would be the point of posting it , if it wasn't combat log ?

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Matt516]

The DR a lash goes against *should* be proportional to the lash damage, but isn't (it's always 25% DR no matter what the lash is). This is probably a bug and should be reported and complained about on the tech support Forum until they fix it. Right now lashes lower than 25% (like Monk's lightning strikes) are almost useless, while lashes higher than 25% are more useful than they should be.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Matt516

[peddroelm]

The DR a Lash goes against *should* be proportional to the Lash damage, but isn't (it's always 25% DR no matter what the Lash is).

Yess nerf the uber op classes, Paladin, Ranger, Monk !! Nerf them to the ground .. Wait ... what ?! 

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Elerond]

 

The DR a Lash goes against *should* be proportional to the Lash damage, but isn't (it's always 25% DR no matter what the Lash is).

Yess nerf the uber op classes, Paladin, Ranger, Monk !! Nerf them to the ground .. Wait ... what ?! 

 

 

If there is bugs behind game mathematics, then those should be fixed and then classes effected by should be checked and re-balanced if there is need, because if mathematics don't as developers intent then it is much harder for them to make corrections in game balance. Buffing of classes you mentioned (ok not monk as they are seen as quite good class by many) has been asked by quite lot already. 

[Matt516]

 

The DR a Lash goes against *should* be proportional to the Lash damage, but isn't (it's always 25% DR no matter what the Lash is).

Yess nerf the uber op classes, Paladin, Ranger, Monk !! Nerf them to the ground .. Wait ... what ?! 

 

 

I fail to see how this nerfs Monk... seeing as Lightning Strikes is useless right now and would get better if this were fixed. As for Pally and Ranger... arguing to keep a highly unintuitive bug in the game mechanics is a strange way to balance classes at best and nonsensical at worst. As Elerond said, better to fix all the bugs, then balance the game.

[Emptiness]

The whole design is flawed.

 

Take an example where you have +25% burn damage from lash and hit for 12 pierce (or whatever) damage (before lash).  The game compares 12 pierce damage vs 100% of pierce resist and 3 burn damage vs 25% of burn resist.  The problem is that you are doing 15 damage total, with 80% being pierce (12/15) and 20% being burn (3/15).  The game should be comparing 12 pierce damage vs 80% of pierce resist and 3 burn damage vs 20% of burn resist.  The way the game calculates it now overly favors DR.

[Gs11]

Same problem as always after so manny posts... Conclusion: lash enchantment ignore DR or NOT? Does type of lash matter?

 

Or just put any lash on weapon and it always be just pure 25% dmg?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Gs11