Racial Villification, did you feel any?

[Katarack21]

 

I can agree with that. There is a discrepency between how Orlan NPC's talk about being treated and how other NPC's discuss orlans, and how an Orlan PC is treated within the game world.

 

This is a reflection of issues with reactivity in general within the game. Nobody in the game world makes a peep about you being a Priest of Eothas, either, as far as I can tell.

 

Raedric does!

 

I was expecting to get arrested a bit more for going around in a cloak with the symbol of Eothas on it, though.

 

 

Awesome! That is good to know.

[sparklecat]

Eder does not, however, which is a big omission if you ask me.  As is (Twin Elms main plot thing):

 

 

The lack of an Eothas symbol/shrine in Teir Evron

 

[Katarack21]

That last one under the spoiler tag--I don't think that's an omission. I think that's deliberate; I think it ties in to the whole series of events.

[sparklecat]

Isn't that place supposed to be pretty old, though? 

 

 

No constellation-symbol I could see, if the gods themselves are making them appear, but there should still presumably be a place and a useless leftover shrine to click on for it, I'd have thought.  But maybe it'll make more sense after Thaos stops kicking my ass and I get the ending proper.

 

[eRe4s3r]

The (lack of) reaction of the world to the race choice (specifically Orlan and Godlike) is imo one of the reasons why for me this game was a 7.5 score wise. Which is a bit weird when you read the lore of the nations. Orlans are slaves in many nations and second class citizens in many others. Godlikes are entirely shunned and feared.

 

If you walk around as godlike in Dyrwood or Gilded Vale, a mob should form (according to LORE). But Obsidian wrote themselves into a dead end by putting Backer characters everywhere where they shouldn't even be thematically, so they couldn't even do world reactivity if they wanted. Not to mention it'd have been an interesting RPG experience to play Orlan and have some actual gameplay differences. This could be done in such a way as to show the player how racism can feel like even in a fantasy world.

 

If we go the nit pick route and dismantle the lore, story and world of PoEt we'll never be happy. It is very clearly a world that simply flat out WASN'T THERE a few years ago. It had no time to fully develop over many writers and many with many people inputting story and stuff. And hence the lore in the game "is there" but also only half-assed and so-so implemented into the world. And reactivity is entirely missing. But then, this is the first game in the IP, lots of possibility to enhance that particular thing.

 

Ps.: That godlike example is especially jarring because in the PoEt lore I thought godlikes were like Drow, heavily stigmatized, shunned and feared. So I played one to see what would happen. Turns out aside from being able to light fires with my head nobody really cares.

[Katarack21]

 

I took it as the constellations *are* the gods, the earthly manifestations in the heavens of the gods very existence, seperate from their ability to incarnate as physical beings. Eothas is no longer represented because, quite simply, he doesn't exist anymore. Eothas is ash. Eothas is *gone*. Souls can, after all, be destroyed.

 

[Taritu]

In fact, in the middle ages, culture and religion were more important than skin color, generally speaking.  i was very disappointed by the lack of reactivity to my Eothas priest, however, especially as I played her completely "in your face" about it whenever possible. Completely unapologetic, and if anyone's got a problem with her faith, come at her.  (Only Raedric cared.)

 

So far Durance hasn't even mentioned it, which is ludicrous.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Taritu

[Katarack21]

In fact, in the middle ages, culture and religion were more important than skin color, generally speaking.

But not superstition and physical appearance. If you were born with hair covering your entire face, life was going to be terrible.

[Mungri]

Offended I am for I am black.

 

To twitter!!!!

[ednanf]

As an Orlan myself, I feel offended by the game

Edited April 9, 2015 by ednanf

[Varana]

The (lack of) reaction of the world to the race choice (specifically Orlan and Godlike) is imo one of the reasons why for me this game was a 7.5 score wise. Which is a bit weird when you read the lore of the nations. Orlans are slaves in many nations and second class citizens in many others. Godlikes are entirely shunned and feared.

 

If you walk around as godlike in Dyrwood or Gilded Vale, a mob should form (according to LORE). But Obsidian wrote themselves into a dead end by putting Backer characters everywhere where they shouldn't even be thematically, so they couldn't even do world reactivity if they wanted. Not to mention it'd have been an interesting RPG experience to play Orlan and have some actual gameplay differences. This could be done in such a way as to show the player how racism can feel like even in a fantasy world.

 

If we go the nit pick route and dismantle the lore, story and world of PoEt we'll never be happy. It is very clearly a world that simply flat out WASN'T THERE a few years ago. It had no time to fully develop over many writers and many with many people inputting story and stuff. And hence the lore in the game "is there" but also only half-assed and so-so implemented into the world. And reactivity is entirely missing. But then, this is the first game in the IP, lots of possibility to enhance that particular thing.

 

Ps.: That godlike example is especially jarring because in the PoEt lore I thought godlikes were like Drow, heavily stigmatized, shunned and feared. So I played one to see what would happen. Turns out aside from being able to light fires with my head nobody really cares.

I think that you read a bit too much into the lore there.

 

The Collector's Guidebook states outright:

A diverse medley of races populate Eora. Their separating characteristics are more apparent on a cultural level, with racial boundaries presenting neither roadblocks nor advantages in any given dealing between civilized men and women. An elf from one of the Glanfathan tribes, for example, would share more kinship with a dwarf of a neighboring tribe than with an elf from the Aedyran Empire.

That race is not a defining factor, is intention, not oversight.

 

As for Orlans - yes, they're often slaves in Readceras or the Vailian Republics, and servants in the Dyrwood. But not because they're viewed as inherently inferior, or similar RL-based notions. Wild Orlans are even considered to be "poor slaves" because of their violent nature. So while many Orlans may be slaves or at the lower end of the society, it's not because of their race per se.

And with Godlike, it depends - no, them coming to town does not automatically entice the population to get their forks and torches:

The godlike are the children of kith who have been blessed (or cursed, depending on personal or social view) with the physical manifestation of a divine spark granted by the gods... Sometimes, the reaction they get is overwhelmingly positive. Many times, the reaction is overwhelmingly hostile.

Could there be better reactivity? Sure.

But outright hostility, blatant racism and things like that are not what the lore states.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Varana

[Aron Times]

Racism Actually Sucks

 

To those of you advocating for more racial reactions/tension in the game, have you actually experienced real racism against your perceived race in real life? I find that even non-racist whites tend to be really naive when it comes to real racism because they are the wide majority where I live, and the actual racists don't bother them as much. I have it a lot easier than others, as I'm brown instead of black, plus I speak unaccented English. People regularly ask me where I'm from, but the tone of their voice implies that they're asking where my ancestors are from. Most of them assume that I was born here, and are genuinely surprised to discover an immigrant who speaks like a native.

 

The point is, racism really sucks because it's prejudice against something you have no control over. The same goes for sexism, which is why there isn't much difference between male and female characters in the grand scheme of things. While it is a known fact that in real life, men are generally stronger than women, there are many, many exceptions to the rule. People like the PC and his or her companions are by no means regular people; for them to have survived their ordeals, past, present, and future, they'd have to be exceptional individuals who don't fall into the realm of ordinary.

 

Race != Nationality

 

Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Obsidian is an American company. Whether they like it or not, American values will seep into their games, chief among them the idea that race doesn't equal culture, or rather, nationality. Here in the USA, race has nothing to do with nationality. Whether your ancestors are Chinese, Navajo, Korean, Russian, South African, Arab, etc., it has no bearing on your legal citizenship status here in the USA. If you are an American citizen, you are ONLY an American citizen; dual citizenships aren't recognized legally on American soil.

 

One thing that confuses foreigners watching American news is that when an American citizen makes the news abroad, he is referred to primarily as an American, regardless of race or previous nationality (in the case of naturalized citizens). For example, recently, an American citizen died trying to get his family out of war-torn Yemen. Countries where race = nationality would find this reporting odd, because the man was "clearly" Arab and Yemeni, whereas from an American perspective, he was clearly American (because his loyalty was to the Star-Spangled Banner).

 

The reverse is also true. Citizens who renounce their citizenships stop being Americans, even if they've lived their entire lives in the USA before giving up their citizenship. Many citizens announced that they would renounce their citizenships when George W. Bush was elected in 2000, and when Barack Obama was elected in 2008. A few people were actually stupid enough to go through with this, and the result is that they are now legally foreigners, and can and will be deported if they stay too long in the USA, if they can even legally enter in the first place. Never mind that some of them were born and raised here.

 

This concept isn't new. The ancient Romans were known for their view that culture mattered more than race. There are many accounts of African Roman governors, but their blackness isn't remarked on as something significant, more like a description of how they looked like. They even had a long standing practice of holding the children of their vassals prisoner and raising them in their own homes and sending them to Roman schools so they would become real Romans, so the vassal states would be run by real Romans when those kids grew up.

[eRe4s3r]

Re: Varana

 

Ah, then I was indeed reading too much into the lore. But when you say it "depends" note I was specifically talking about a fire Godlike in my example. And at least for Gilded Vale that is one example where the lacking reactivity instantly becomes apparent. A Fire Godlike Priest of Eothas should literally trigger army response considering the recent history.. ok. Maybe not total hostility (though for Gilded Vale it really should be), but a different reaction than "Hi, who are you?" most definitely. Especially from Durance, for that matter.

 

And blatant outright racism doesn't need to be everywhere. But it needs to be somewhere or the writing dulls its own lore and following that, immersion. What you quoted says not that there is no racism, it says there is not EVERYWHERE racism. Funnily enough the areas that we travel to seem to be totally accepting of a priest of Eothas with a burning head.

 

And above me. The fact that as an European my definition of race/nationality is slightly different is very true, and this is why the lore confused me

[Khalid the bear]

Racism Actually Sucks

 

i liked your post, and i a totaly agree with it

 

but the thread isnt about racism per se, but the lack of reactions ingame that were hinted during character creation and lore

 

orelean reactions should be mild or rare

godlike reactions shoud wary and be often wtf like

priest of Eothas? you shoud get in trouble in situations when people recognise you as such, as there were purges, and some people still advocate them

....

 

your land of origin should matter more than which atribute point you get(especialy valian with valian embasy and patriotic npc), also in some lesser measure your bacground (background does get mentioned once or twice)

 

we dont have as much racism here as im in the meadle of eastern europe (only example i can think of right now are Romany, and black/eastern tourists who get strange looks because they are (were) novelty. but we are constantly souronded by people with bias based on religion, nationality (even city rivralies, which is ridiculos considering how small Croatia is) you basicaly cant go out to town or watch the news without hearing some biased remarks/conversations around you

 

if the chargen and other lore sugests such tensions, you should experience them on your character. maybe even on party members

(someone comenting on pelegrina/Hirvais)

 

and also in case of durance in Marigans temple in drywood

[Aron Times]

I'd like to clarify my stance. I'm okay with greater reaction to race, nationality, background etc., because as my own thread shows, they don't come up often enough.

 

How often does your backstory come into play?

 

Of course, this could be another subconscious Americanism that creeped into the game. It's considered very mildly offensive here to ask where someone is from, especially if said person actually lives there, though in the more homogenous parts of the USA (e.g. ethnic neighborhoods, predominantly white/black/hispanic areas), people tend to violate this unwritten rule more often. Responding that you actually live there may make people apologize for assuming that you're foreign instead of local.

 

A clear example of this is a sailor in Ondra's Gift who remarks that my aumaua fighter wasn't from around here (Defiance Bay). I replied with "What made you think that I'm not from around here?" The reply was something like [Aumaua] "Well, I, er... Big guy like you, I just assumed..." This is a very American reaction, and I'd imagine that if PoE was made in another country, the sailor would reply, [Aumaua] "Well, aumaua aren't that common around here." without being as apologetic.

[sparklecat]

 If you are an American citizen, you are ONLY an American citizen; dual citizenships aren't recognized legally on American soil.

 

Uh.  What?

 

 

That's simply not true.

 

eta: are you referring to the fact that a foreign national who wants to become an american citizen must renounce their prior citizenship first?

Edited April 10, 2015 by sparklecat

[Aron Times]

Dual citizenships exist, but your second citizenship isn't legally recognized on American soil. Many of my fellow Filipinos, myself included, have dual citizenship. It's just that I'm only an American on American soil, while I'm both American and Filipino on Filipino soil.

 

Also, please cite a source that contradicts my statement (and personal experience) instead of simply stating that I'm wrong.

 

Here's a link to the official Department of State website regarding the matter:

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html

Edited April 10, 2015 by Aron Times

[sparklecat]

Dual citizenships exist, but your second citizenship isn't legally recognized on American soil. Many of my fellow Filipinos, myself included, have dual citizenship. It's just that I'm only an American on American soil, while I'm both American and Filipino on Filipino soil.

 

Also, please cite a source that contradicts my statement (and personal experience) instead of simply stating that I'm wrong.

 

Here's a link to the official Department of State website regarding the matter:

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html

Your own source contradicts the statement; I'm not really sure how you want your second citizenship recognised on American soil for you to consider it to count.  Especially not in a way that's any different to how most any other country handles the matter.  I'm a dual US/UK citizen, and I certainly wouldn't consider there to be any difference.

 

 

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. nationals may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist nationals abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

[Jasta11]

I think racism is a prominent enough topic in video game fantasy (most notably The Witcher and Dragon Age) that PoE doesn't really have to embrace that topic. There is more than enough resentment between cultures and religions to have believable tensions. That is not an aspect they really need to put emphasis on.

 

Obsidian just needs to make races more reactive next time.

[Aron Times]

Read it again. Out of practicality, the US government recognizes that dual citizenship exists, but it isn't de jure part of US law.

 

It's kind of like how driver's licenses are only legal in the state you got them, but out of pragmatism, the other states honor them.

 

Edit: Here's the relevant sentence:

 

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Aron Times

[Namutree]

A few thoughts:

 

1) Racism is not as severe in Eora as it is in RL. The reason is because different races can't breed and thus multiracial communities don't threaten "racial purity".

 

2) Racism being shoved in your face isn't very realistic anyways unless it's institutional racism.

[sparklecat]

 

Read it again. Out of practicality, the US government recognizes that dual citizenship exists, but it isn't de jure part of US law.

 

It's kind of like how driver's licenses are only legal in the state you got them, but out of pragmatism, the other states honor them.

 

Edit: Here's the relevant sentence:

 

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another.

 

Okay, but is there any practical difference in how your two countries handle dual citizens, or is it simply a technical distinction?

[Namutree]

I think racism is a prominent enough topic in video game fantasy (most notably The Witcher and Dragon Age) that PoE doesn't really have to embrace that topic. There is more than enough resentment between cultures and religions to have believable tensions. That is not an aspect they really need to put emphasis on.

 

Obsidian just needs to make races more reactive next time.

Why? Race isn't a big deal in Eora. I like that people in Eora aren't obsessed with race. Making it more reactive to race would be a kill joy.

[Badmojo]

It was jarring that everybody treated you pretty much the same regardless of race, which made it feel false and unrealistic.  I mean, It would have been refreshing to see you get treated completely different based on your race, even an occasional "Human scum" thrown my way when around elves, dwarves or other would have been nice.  Godlike should be feared the most since they are so supposedly rare.  Pallegina gave this big speech about her being mistreated by her race and what hardship she had..yet, nothing really like that happens around you except for some very rare token moments.  

[Aron Times]

 

 

Read it again. Out of practicality, the US government recognizes that dual citizenship exists, but it isn't de jure part of US law.

 

It's kind of like how driver's licenses are only legal in the state you got them, but out of pragmatism, the other states honor them.

 

Edit: Here's the relevant sentence:

 

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another.

 

Okay, but is there any practical difference in how your two countries handle dual citizens, or is it simply a technical distinction?

 

It's primarily a technical distinction which rarely comes up except during complicated international incidents. IIRC, Philippine law official recognizes dual citizenship (and de facto encourages it), while American law doesn't, though as a matter of course, it's recognized unofficially due to pragmatism.

 

But we've gone off topic too much already.