Learn Penetrating Shot, never turn it off...

[b0rsuk]

The way Damage Reduction works in this game heavily penalizes fast weapons. I know they've just been made slightly stronger in 1.03 patch, but the issue still stands. And the boost was for melee weapon only anyway.

 

DR means a fixed number of HP is substracted from weapon damage on each hit. When your attacks are weaker but faster, they are affected by DR more. Obsidian claimed earlier that they would make all weapons viable, even in late game, but I don't believe this is very much the case for fast weapons.

 

Almost all monsters or human enemies have at least 5 DR. Even priests and mages in robes tend to have as much. This means fast attacks - and I'm looking at YOU, Sagani ! - may as well have a Fast Weapon Tax. They only shine against totally soft enemies, which are rare, and in this case I'm not convinced they actually outdamage a crossbow or a pistol.

 

So I took Penetrating Shot on Sagani, she was already specialized in hunting bows by the time I reached her at level5. I don't feel like ever turning it off.

 

Hunting Bow has base damage 10-15. If you substract 5, you get 5-10. Average damage drops from 12.5 to 7.5 on a monster with 5 DR, a decrease of 40%. Penetrating Shot slows her down by 20%, so the net benefit is about +12%. In other words, the talent slows Sagani down 20% for +5 damage essentially. A no-brainer.

 

My consolation prize is Champion's Boon, a level5 Priest spell which gives an ally +5 Might, +5 Perception, and +5 DR penetration.

 

Which brings me to the question: why not go with a War Bow instead ? Smaller portion of it is consumed by DR. I would have a spare talent. When is a Hunting Bow better than a War Bow ? Should I take Interrupting Shots, or something ?

------------

 

In related news, I feel silly for taking Weapon Specialization: Adventurer on Eder. He spends a lot of time with a large shield, which means he has to put up with a fast and weak flail. Knight specialization would let me choose between mace and sword, Soldier would grant me the flexible warhammer. I'm slightly tempted to get Vulnerable Attacks, but that will pidgeon-hole my Eder into using flails, and doesn't do anything to his ranged attacks when I feel like using tactics.

 

The bottom line, I guess, is that the game doesn't have enough critters with 0 DR.

[ErlKing]

1) There are debuffs for casters that reduce enemy DR

2) Penetrating shot affect only recovery time, so actual dps drop less than 20% (attack frames 33 recovery 54 total about 88, with PS 33+(54*1.2)=98 so difference is about 12% instead of 20%)

3) Warbow - average speed, hunting bow - fast.

 

4) I totally agree that there should be much more enemies with 0 DR + lot of health.

Edited April 6, 2015 by ErlKing

[Caerdon]

Double stilettos has been shown to be perfectly competitive choice compared to estoc. There are so many ways to increase your per-hit damage that DR isn't as much of an issue as one might think.

 

Penetrating shot is good for bows (and, surprisingly, some spells), but with the heavier-hitting ranged weapons it's likely to be counterproductive.

[Nordicus]

Which brings me to the question: why not go with a War Bow instead ? Smaller portion of it is consumed by DR. I would have a spare talent. When is a Hunting Bow better than a War Bow ?

That is something I've been wondering as well, and I've come to some sort of an answer that I do not have numbers to back up, just anecdotal evidence.

 

It generally seems, that past giving yourself a lot of Dex and choosing a fast weapon/style, it is considerably tougher to increase your attack speed than it is to increase your damage and accuracy. Fast weapons suffer because often they are at that rather awkward spot where enemy DR just about absorbs 80% of your damage. At least without putting genuine effort to buff up the damage numbers of your quick blows.

When you got a fast weapon that deals around 10 damage and average speed weapon that deal 15, DR is a considerable factor. Fast weapons are a significant 40-50% faster than average speed weapons, but that doesn't work to their advantage at this point. Fast forward further into the game and you're standing at 14DMG fast versus 21DMG average? DR starts mattering in less cases. 20DMG fast versus 30DMG average? With possible armor penetration to boot? Fast weapon takes over the average.

 

I gave Sagani a very damaging unique hunting bow from one of the early levels in Endless Paths, and just kept buffing and buffing and buffing her damage and accuracy through different talents. Now, she doesn't deal as much damage per hit as she would with say a firearm, but because the usual damage is so high compared to enemy armor with the crits she commonly does, it doesn't matter anymore. She fires multiple high damage arrows in the time it takes for guns to fire and reload

 

So you'll not start seeing advantages until rather late, but going full-on offense, fast weapons have a bit of an exponential growth compared to average/slow weapons' more linear growth in power.

 

Now, if you want a more versatile or a slightly more defensive build, then faster weapons and stuff like dual-wielding can't compete, because you need to go all-in for them to shine

 

The bottom line, I guess, is that the game doesn't have enough critters with 0 DR.

Agreed. Before DR, faster weapons actually seem to have much higher DPS, but you never really get to see that. Edited April 6, 2015 by Nordicus

[Caerdon]

Hunting bow is better than war bow against most targets with low DR, though not necessarily by much. What this "low" is really depends on a huge number of factors. 10 might be in the right ballpark.

[Naevius]

Sagani may not do much damage, but seems to get a lot of interrupts, which are also useful. I wish I could enchant a bow to interrupt constantly. (If I can, I haven't found out how.)

[Daemonjax]

When is a Hunting Bow better than a War Bow?

 

The Hunter's Bow is garbage because it's both fast and can't be dual-wielded, only redeemed by the Lenas Êr unique Hunter's Bow due to its nice stats (including 5 DR).

 

The ranger only hunter's bow is pretty crappy, and I would prefer the stats swapped between it and Lenas Êr in order to redeem Sagani's character and (by extension) the entire ranger class (at least somewhat).

 

I think that could be accomplished with mods one day.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Guest BugsVendor]

Another problem with the whole mechanics side of things is that damage depends on accuracy.

 

Accuracy is also a very limited resource compared to others.

 

Yet because of miss / graze / hit / critic mechanic you can't get enough of it.

 

If you only have border line accuracy you will almost always graze and do pretty much nothing.

 

It is so much different to just miss / hit mechanic where you can go for more damage and less accuracy and hope for some luck.

[cdd]

Penetrating Shot + Lead Spitter = 12 DR reduction for each of the 6 projectiles

 

that combo is just insane, especially on cipher with draining whip

[lastpawn]

Agreed on feeling a lack of high HP low DR enemies. It makes certain weapons too good too often.

[Shdy314]

PoE should have embraced the firearms/arbalests/crossbows that helps make their world more distinct from usual fantasy drek and just ditched the stupid bows. But no of course thats not possible because of the hard-on a lot of geeks have for bows.

[Molcho]

PoE should have embraced the firearms/arbalests/crossbows that helps make their world more distinct from usual fantasy drek and just ditched the stupid bows. But no of course thats not possible because of the hard-on a lot of geeks have for bows

 

This would have made the whole world much less believable. 

[Shdy314]

 

PoE should have embraced the firearms/arbalests/crossbows that helps make their world more distinct from usual fantasy drek and just ditched the stupid bows. But no of course thats not possible because of the hard-on a lot of geeks have for bows

 

This would have made the whole world much less believable. 

Got a bow fan proving my point right here. Yeah a world where guns have relegated archery to a status and hobby symbol. SOOOOO unbelievable.

[Crucis]

 

 

PoE should have embraced the firearms/arbalests/crossbows that helps make their world more distinct from usual fantasy drek and just ditched the stupid bows. But no of course thats not possible because of the hard-on a lot of geeks have for bows

 

This would have made the whole world much less believable. 

Got a bow fan proving my point right here. Yeah a world where guns have relegated archery to a status and hobby symbol. SOOOOO unbelievable.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you've got another bow fan here.  And I've gotta say that the idea of a bow-less fantasy world is just ... wrong!

 

 

[Crucis]

Another problem with the whole mechanics side of things is that damage depends on accuracy.

 

Accuracy is also a very limited resource compared to others.

 

Yet because of miss / graze / hit / critic mechanic you can't get enough of it.

 

If you only have border line accuracy you will almost always graze and do pretty much nothing.

 

It is so much different to just miss / hit mechanic where you can go for more damage and less accuracy and hope for some luck.

 

If the character has borderline accuracy, it'd probably be betterto use a slow, high damage weapon like a crossbow/arbalest or a pistol/arqaba.

 

Faster firing bows seem more effective when used by high accuracy characters since they may be less likely to get grazes, and more likely to get solid hits or crits.

[Crucis]

The way Damage Reduction works in this game heavily penalizes fast weapons. I know they've just been made slightly stronger in 1.03 patch, but the issue still stands. And the boost was for melee weapon only anyway.

 

DR means a fixed number of HP is substracted from weapon damage on each hit. When your attacks are weaker but faster, they are affected by DR more. Obsidian claimed earlier that they would make all weapons viable, even in late game, but I don't believe this is very much the case for fast weapons.

 

Almost all monsters or human enemies have at least 5 DR. Even priests and mages in robes tend to have as much. This means fast attacks - and I'm looking at YOU, Sagani ! - may as well have a Fast Weapon Tax. They only shine against totally soft enemies, which are rare, and in this case I'm not convinced they actually outdamage a crossbow or a pistol.

 

So I took Penetrating Shot on Sagani, she was already specialized in hunting bows by the time I reached her at level5. I don't feel like ever turning it off.

 

Hunting Bow has base damage 10-15. If you substract 5, you get 5-10. Average damage drops from 12.5 to 7.5 on a monster with 5 DR, a decrease of 40%. Penetrating Shot slows her down by 20%, so the net benefit is about +12%. In other words, the talent slows Sagani down 20% for +5 damage essentially. A no-brainer.

 

My consolation prize is Champion's Boon, a level5 Priest spell which gives an ally +5 Might, +5 Perception, and +5 DR penetration.

 

Which brings me to the question: why not go with a War Bow instead ? Smaller portion of it is consumed by DR. I would have a spare talent. When is a Hunting Bow better than a War Bow ? Should I take Interrupting Shots, or something ?

 

b0rsuk, you make some good observations here.  My PC is a Ranger whose primary weapon is a warbow.  I chose warbow oer hunting bow early on because I just wanted a harder hitting bow, though I didn't know squat about the details of the PoE system at the time.  I don't think that I've taken Pen Shot yet, because I saw the slightly slower recovery time and didn't fully consider the ramifications as you've described them above.  I'll probably try to pick pen Shot next time I level up and have the option to do so, as long as there's not a class talent that's more important to take.

 

As for your question, when is a Hunting Bow better than a War Bow, I have one answer.  If by chance you pick up a NPC who has the weapon focus: Peasant auto-picked, then it'd probably be the better choice.   Why? Because WF: Peasant includes Hunting Bow, and it seems to me that using a warbow instead and giving up +6 to your accuracy may not be worth the cost in the long run, since the greater accuracy should be helping you get more solid hits and crits, in spite of it having a somewhat lower damage range.  Just a thought.

[b0rsuk]

In case you haven't noticed, firearms in PoE have at least -5 to Accuracy and a long reload animation. This is to indicate they are early firearms, unreliable and awkward to use. It would be more believable if they would also randomly not fire or blow up in your hands. But not necessarily fun to play.

 

Actually I think it's Arbalests that gain the most from high Accuracy. These things inflict Prone on critical hit !!!

 

Yes, when it turns out your companion is already trained as a Peasant, it makes sense to stick with Hunting bows. I'm not denying this.

Edited April 7, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Tvättbjörn]

With good damage bonus and average accuracy the bows are roughly equal against (effective) DR5 enemies. Boosting damage bonus and accuracy increases the DR threshold. If you have penetration you have to add that to the DR number. Lower DR means hunter bow is better, higher DR usually means that war bow is better but if the DR is so high that the war bow deals minimum damage the hunter bow becomes better again because of higher rate of fire.

[Mungri]

Does penetrating shot work with penetrating blast?

[b0rsuk]

Using Hunting Bow on a 0 DR enemy* is an optimal use of Hunting Bow, for sure. But is it actually better than a War Bow in that case ?

 

Does anyone have a table of weapon delays ?

 

* I remember to turn off Penetrating Shot in such rare case.

Edited April 7, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Caerdon]

Using Hunting Bow on a 0 DR enemy* is an optimal use of Hunting Bow, for sure. But is it actually better than a War Bow in that case ?

 

Yes, it definitely is.

[Crucis]

With good damage bonus and average accuracy the bows are roughly equal against (effective) DR5 enemies. Boosting damage bonus and accuracy increases the DR threshold. If you have penetration you have to add that to the DR number. Lower DR means hunter bow is better, higher DR usually means that war bow is better but if the DR is so high that the war bow deals minimum damage the hunter bow becomes better again because of higher rate of fire.

 

I won't deny what you say here.  But I think that one also has to factor in whether the bow-user in question has a weapon focus on only one type of bow, but not the other.  For example, if you have a charcter with the WF Adventurer but not WF Peasant, he'll have a +6 accuracy on his warbow, but not on the hunting bow.  And in this case, it seems that it wouldn't be all that wise to throw away a parfectly good +6 acc bonus, just because you find yourself in a situation where a hunting bow might be a little better, if not for the WF issue.

[sims796]

 

 

PoE should have embraced the firearms/arbalests/crossbows that helps make their world more distinct from usual fantasy drek and just ditched the stupid bows. But no of course thats not possible because of the hard-on a lot of geeks have for bows

 

This would have made the whole world much less believable. 

Got a bow fan proving my point right here. Yeah a world where guns have relegated archery to a status and hobby symbol. SOOOOO unbelievable.

 

I don't think you have a clue how bows and guns - those guns - actually work. It took some time and advancement before guns overtook bows, since the latter packed mroe power with greater range.

 

Hell, by your logic, we should remove swords, because guns!

[Fardragon]

Yes, PoE gets it pretty right. Early firearms where inaccurate at anything other than point blank range (no rifling), unreliable (PoE is very kind in that respect), and very slow to load. Their only advantage was very high stopping power. They where invented in the 13th century, but didn't displace bows until around the 18th.

 

The Mary Rose (which sank in 1545) had cannon for ship to ship combat, but the soldiers where armed with longbows.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Fardragon

[Urthor]

I don't think you have a clue how bows and guns - those guns - actually work. It took some time and advancement before guns overtook bows, since the latter packed mroe power with greater range.

 

Hell, by your logic, we should remove swords, because guns!

 

 

If you're going to play the realistic ranged weapons card

 

• Hunting bows are completely useless in RL warfare even hundreds of years before guns had even been invented, zero draw strength vs metal armour.  So 100% historical realism in PoE, a hunting bow designed to kill deer is useless against human beings.
• Non-longbow European warbows weren't very useful against armored targets in the era where guns were beginning to see use because again, not enough penetration compared to crossbows which penetrate extremely well even though they're slower.  Few European forces fielded large units of archers that weren't using crossbows or longbows because crossbows were that much more effective even though they fired slower.Crossbows>everything except Longbows and Composite bows.  
• Basically nobody used longbows and composite bows in Europe, ever.  Relatively speaking a few randoms in the British Isles were a tiny minority in historical warfare, and composite bows, although incredibly effective game changing weapons that were far in advance of European archery, just didn't exist in Europe.  100% historical accuracy to Pillars of Eternity.
• Crossbows and guns co-existed and over time guns replaced Crossbow.  The status quo for most of continental Europe in the 1400s and 1500s was well equipped crossbowman=extremely effective, missile weapon of choice for Spain/France/Italian Penninsula/Holy Roman Empire, and eventually guns took over as they became cheaper and cheaper.  So just like Pillars of Eternity, where in the early game Guns are both hard to find and the -5 accuracy renders crossbows far more viable, while

Not surprising for Josh Sawyer, the Pillars of Eternity setup is coincidentally doesn't make much sense at all from a gameplay perspective, entire weapon types are redundant, but is fastidiously accurate historically speaking.  

Edited April 8, 2015 by Urthor