Let's talk class balance....

[Climhazzard]

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

 

 

On hard my monk consistently outputs more than any other class I've played, without excessive knockouts.  I don't use things I consider broken so that statement doesn't count certain barb builds, but it does include ciphers because I always use them, though usually for control.

 

Some people I guess are just going to keep theorycrafting about how bad monks are until they get buffed, then they'll be OP, people will realize they were great in the first place, and they'll get nerfed as a result.  I'm not really looking forward to the process tbh.  Give monk a try for a full playthrough, and you'll realize he's just fine how he is.  Just a hint, don't build him as a tank or a glass cannon.  Try dual sabers + torment's reach if you really want something fun.

[Seeders]

is barb really that bad?  I've been playing on hard solo with barb and haven't really had issues.  i guess i need to try potd

Edited April 10, 2015 by Seeders

[b0rsuk]

Ranger at least has a ton of abilities to choose. I think it's the Hunting Bow and Dual Wield rangers that need help the most. Contrary to tooltip, Marked Prey is not +20 damage, but +20% damage. I think Stunning Arrows is the only talent that benefits from fast attacks. It doesn't depend on your low damage with Hunting Bow, just accuracy. You can also take Interrupting Blows, but so can everybody else.

[Shadenuat]

is barb really that bad?  I've been playing on hard solo with barb and haven't really had issues.  i guess i need to try potd

If by "bad" you mean can clean encounters by himself with left-click with other party members just serving as window dressing then barb is p. bad.

If you ask if he's poor at killing stuff or suffers on PoTD then hell no he's a good class you can build in various ways.

Better than a Fighter a lot if you ask me - I think player who understand how to not give mobs high chance to hit your party or do damage would appreciate a front line character/tank that can do lots of damage more than 2 might 3 dex wild orlan fighter with 150 deflection.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Shadenuat

[Epsilon Rose]

 

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

 

 

On hard my monk consistently outputs more than any other class I've played, without excessive knockouts.  I don't use things I consider broken so that statement doesn't count certain barb builds, but it does include ciphers because I always use them, though usually for control.

 

Some people I guess are just going to keep theorycrafting about how bad monks are until they get buffed, then they'll be OP, people will realize they were great in the first place, and they'll get nerfed as a result.  I'm not really looking forward to the process tbh.  Give monk a try for a full playthrough, and you'll realize he's just fine how he is.  Just a hint, don't build him as a tank or a glass cannon.  Try dual sabers + torment's reach if you really want something fun.

 

Does it really make sense to talk about how much damage a monk does vs. another class if you're explicitly not using that class for damage? Similarly, how much do you micro your monk vs your other characters? That seems to be a rather telling indicator for which character does the most damage.

[Climhazzard]

Alright, I don't know how my monk compares to my cipher because I often use cipher for CC, I know how he compares to druids though whom I exclusively use for damage, and other melee classes whom I often use for damage, compared to pretty much everything but barb retaliation builds (which are broken as all hell) monk is performing great.

[MadDemiurg]

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

Barb is fine once the bugs are fixed. Cipher mostly needs duration nerf on L6 CC I think. Otherwise would be too underwhelming compared to other casters.

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[peddroelm]

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

------

Problem is early game // low level - dual fist cannot get +12 accuracy by gripping 1 hand better with the other like the 1h weapons can.  Cannot up accuracy with enchants like other weapons can.I strongly suggest peasant weapon focus at lvl 2 for the +6 accuracy ..

Big jumps in effectiveness at lvl 4, 7 & 10 ..

 

I'm not convinced about slowing attack speed to get pierce .. Would help early but hurt late-engame max DPS builds ..

Edited April 10, 2015 by peddroelm

[Climhazzard]

about monk and their unarmed attacks scaling

 

Lvl 10 monk gets + (5-7) (Monk) + (8-8 )(Transcendent suffering 4) damage  to base unarmed attack resulting in 18-23 WEAPON BASE DAMAGE RANGE   (and +12 to unarmed accuracy) ..

 

People keep complaining about not being able to enchant his fists - but weapon damage enchantments are "additive" ..

There is no 1 handed melee weapon in the game with anywhere near 18-23 base damage range ..

NOT EVEN 2 handed weapons get this high (14-20) ..

 

Where does that factor in ?  When you start adding the additive damage modifiers on that huge base 18-23 damage range you're going to see the difference .. You need to stack damage modifiers on (endgame) monks to squeeze most of their uber endgame fists ..

 

+20%  to 11-16 base weapon range (sword)  is not the same as +20% to 18-23 endgame uber monk fist that (attacks faster ? on top of that) ..To really make a difference you'll really need over 400% (achievable ?) additive damage mods  ..

 

Monk base fist damage progression

L01 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L02 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L03 12-17 TS 1 (+2-2 damage )

L04 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L05 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L06 14-19 TS 2 (+4-4 damage +4 accuracy)

L07 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L08 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L09 16-21 TS 3 (+6-6 damage +8 accuracy)

L10 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L11 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

L12 18-23 TS 4 (+8-8 damage +12 accuracy)

 

There guys need the highest might you can get and also all the other additive damage modifiers you can get from abilities. potions , etc ..

 

It should also be noted when you're considering this that fists have the same attack speed as fast weapons do.  But I honestly don't think monk fist damage is what people are considering lacking here, tbh I'm not sure what they consider lacking in the monk.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Climhazzard

[The Josip]

You're playing < PotD , anything is absolutely great < PotD.

My own monk melted faces on Normal and could frontline like a baws while my backline just stood there and watched.

 

Then you hit PotD, get up against 70 def enemies with 18 DR, against your level 3 monk.

And that's where you realize your awesome stunning punches just don't connect 8/10 times, and your Force of Anguish consistently fails to knock enemies prone.

On top of that, your unarmed attacks now deal 3-6 damage per hit, while lions crit you for 40+.

 

In the meantime, 3 mobs got past your tank and are now mauling your backline, you're out of stunning punches, your FoA missed but at least you're still on 7/10 endurance.

You get crit for 60 damage and drop to 2/10 endurance + 7 wounds.

You dump them all in more FoAs which miss superbly.

You press F8.

 

 

There's no need for PoTD elitism. That mode is in itself broken, as it's usually the case when you make hard mode by simply inflating the stats. Then the balance is completely off and many skills and playstyles become pointless.

 

So let's talk about Hard (possibly ironman) balance. And if 6-man hard is too easy let's talk about 5-man hard or 4-man hard - it doesn't matter.

 

My first impression of a monk (first several levels) is that it's underpowered, fragile, and requires too much micromanagement. Now, I'm not giving up on a monk yet (although I rage-remove it from the party after 2 minutes every time I try him), and will try it with leech weapon which I did not have before. If leech doesn't help enough then the class is useless because "taking others down with me" is not a successful tactic. My current party can win most battles without a scratch so why do I need a monk? People say he does a lot of damage. I have a few problems with that claim:

 

1. Dps monk is a liability, and you don't want that in ironman mode. Non dps monk is for my party worse than other tanks. I still remember when I played PotD how FoA ability never pushed any enemy that was actually dangerous - it only worked on weak useless enemies (and that's when it actually managed to hit of course). In Hard I hoped that would work better but let's say that the whole wound + maybe hit + maybe pushed combo did not work well for me so far and I quickly lost patience.

 

2. Monk dps may do a lot of damage in ideal circumstances but if he gets hit hard then what? He's dead and useless or has to run back and do autoattacks. And if he doesn't get hit no wounds.

 

3. Monk requires a lot of micromanagement which is a stat in itself.

 

4. It has no synergy with the rest of the party. True, neither do some other classes but then again I don't use these other classes either.

 

 

 

My experience with the monk goes like this:

 

Phase 1: Battle started and I've no Wounds.. argh

Phase 2: Argh I got hit! 1/3 hp/end down. Oh look, Wounds!

Phase 3: FoA.. yeah.. finally some action. (a moment later) *missed* ..ffs..

Phase 4: Argh another hit! 2/3 hp/end down. Evacuate! Oh wait can't because of disengagement mechanic.

Phase 5: Fight to the death!

Phase 6. Death.

[The Josip]

On topic of class balance and damage dealt, we all know that melee dps has potential for highest damage. So boasting that some dps class has high damage is no indication of overall contribution when the only thing that character does is damage.

 

On top of that it seems that many didn't notice that statistics don't include indirect damage. I noticed that when looking at the Chanter. Insane amount of damage done by Phantom evaporates along with the Phantom.

 

 

 

I prefer utility more than raw damage. Right now my party consists of:

Paladin tank (speed aura)

Chanter tank (speed chant)

Chanter (Ila)

And each one of 6 party members has speed Talent.

With this I can kill anything as long as there's space for running - without a scratch. And have fun doing it.

If there's no space for running I block the passage with 1-2 tanks.

If there's no space for blocking the passage I just unload all the spells needed from two druids and a wizard, plus scrolls on anyone else. These are usually story-triggered scenes and thus rare.

 

To be honest, this is a bit of overkill for Hard ironman. Does it get more difficult later on? Because if Hard will be this easy up to level 12 then I could just remove Chanters and go with 6 melee classes and plow through everything. When I do hit-and-run attacks the battles last long enough for me to use Invocations, but otherwise most battles are over in several seconds. I had my first Stronghold defense yesterday and was looking forward to it. And everything was over in seconds because hirelings spawned near the nemies. I spiritshifted druids because I estimated they would not even be able to reload arbalest once, and they managed to reach the enemy, make a hit, and battle over. In Hard ironman I noticed that I can just right click the enemy, and 90% of battles will be won just by doing autoattacks without any additional micromanagement. That's a bit disappointing considering that no one in my group is good at autoattacking (as in, has additional bonuses worth mentioning). 3 casters, 2 chanters (one of which no-damage tank), 1 no-damage tank. 

[Kaigen42]

For what it's worth, I'm running a PotD game right now with a Paladin and a Monk as my tanks. It took the Monk a few levels to hit his stride, but now that he's got some actual CC he's beginning to shine. My PC Paladin has nice tanky defense numbers but not much else to do, so I can point her at the enemy and mostly forget about her after using Lay on Hands.

 

The Fighter's extra engagements are handy, especially against the large groups PotD throws at you, but you can do fine with other tanks if you use good tactics. Positioning, use of terrain, CC, and good targeting discipline can all keep your squishies safe when you don't have enough green lines to snare all the enemies.

[Ganrich]

Yeah, IMHO any issues with the Monk and PotD are systemic of accuracy being removed from attributes late in the backer beta. Whiffing abilities is punishing enough, but abilities that require wounds are doubly so. I don't think anyone should expect knock backs, prone, stun etc to work consistently on PotD though.

 

The problem I have is people on these forums are saying "The Monk is bad." This is flat out untrue. If your only considering the highest difficulty then say so. However, claiming the class doesn't work as a blanket statement isn't helping anyone.

 

@The Josip

 

1) no more a liability than a melee Cipher, or other frontline squishes. The class requires positioning.

 

2). Don't move in with tanks, and you won't get aggro from the bulk of enemies. If you get focused use AoE CC from a caster. If you don't get aggro you can use your other characters to hit the monk. I use an archer to pop the monk once or twice to generate quick wounds, or (post level 9) Thrust of tattered veils is per encounter, or aim the AoEs so they hit the monk (not big damage AoE, but lighter damage ones). Not having enemies attack you doesn't mean you can't have wounds. It just turns into a cost vs rewards scenario. What will do more damage? That per encounter thrust of tattered veils, or 2 Torment's Reach on the cluster around the tank?

 

3). Fair.

 

4). Enervating Blows + a Rogue in party. FoA can push mobs into AoEs. It may not have a lot of synergy, but it can be made to have some. I have used my monk, with 0 wounds, as my archer's pin cushion in order to proc Rooting Pain + Use those wounds for Torment's Reach to kill the remaining enemies around my tank.

 

All of this is in hard difficulty. I won't argue the class's value in PotD, but I think that is an issue with PotD moreso than the Monk class itself. Especially after attribute changes in BB.

 

Class is great. You just have to play it a good bit different than any other class.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

That's more or less my monk experience.

[Noctaem]

I think there's some bad calls as to what a class is designed to do in this thread which is tainting the perceptions of people.

 

First off, at least half of the posters rank Paladins in their lowest possible rating.  Most of the time when people explain why that is, they say things like:

 

-Not as good a tank as a fighter

-Not as good a support as a priest

-Not as good a damage dealer as a rogue

 

But let's take a second here and actually LOOK at what a paladin is designed to do.  Can they tank?  Yes, technically most of the melee (if not all) can be made to tank using the right talents and gear.  However they are not actually designed to do this based on the available class talents.  Can they support?  Yes, in fact they have the ability to rez someone per encounter, can restore endurance in various ways (lay on hands and another more important way that I'll get to in a moment), etc..  And finally can they DPS?  Yes, in fact DPS should be their main focus in a group and here's why:

 

Paladins are the best last hit class in the entire game and so should be built as a kill stealer.  This is because they have class talents that grant endurance to all nearby allies when they last hit which then sustains the rest of the party.  They have multiple abilities that allow for burst DPS to easily achieve last hits as well.  You can restore something like 40+ endurance per last hit to everyone in an aoe and if proper micro is used, can ensure no one ever goes down.  Until a time where the last hit is possible, they are also completely capable of dealing efficient damage while giving aura support to allies and being an off-tank.  Wayfarer Paladin is key.

 

You people are comparing a single class to the best single target DPS (rogue), best support (priest) and best tank (fighter) classes while completely ignoring what the class is designed to do.

[dam]

 

You're playing < PotD , anything is absolutely great < PotD.

My own monk melted faces on Normal and could frontline like a baws while my backline just stood there and watched.

 

Then you hit PotD, get up against 70 def enemies with 18 DR, against your level 3 monk.

And that's where you realize your awesome stunning punches just don't connect 8/10 times, and your Force of Anguish consistently fails to knock enemies prone.

On top of that, your unarmed attacks now deal 3-6 damage per hit, while lions crit you for 40+.

 

In the meantime, 3 mobs got past your tank and are now mauling your backline, you're out of stunning punches, your FoA missed but at least you're still on 7/10 endurance.

You get crit for 60 damage and drop to 2/10 endurance + 7 wounds.

You dump them all in more FoAs which miss superbly.

You press F8.

 

 

There's no need for PoTD elitism. That mode is in itself broken, as it's usually the case when you make hard mode by simply inflating the stats. Then the balance is completely off and many skills and playstyles become pointless.

 

So let's talk about Hard (possibly ironman) balance. And if 6-man hard is too easy let's talk about 5-man hard or 4-man hard - it doesn't matter.

 

My first impression of a monk (first several levels) is that it's underpowered, fragile, and requires too much micromanagement. Now, I'm not giving up on a monk yet (although I rage-remove it from the party after 2 minutes every time I try him), and will try it with leech weapon which I did not have before. If leech doesn't help enough then the class is useless because "taking others down with me" is not a successful tactic. My current party can win most battles without a scratch so why do I need a monk? People say he does a lot of damage. I have a few problems with that claim:

 

1. Dps monk is a liability, and you don't want that in ironman mode. Non dps monk is for my party worse than other tanks. I still remember when I played PotD how FoA ability never pushed any enemy that was actually dangerous - it only worked on weak useless enemies (and that's when it actually managed to hit of course). In Hard I hoped that would work better but let's say that the whole wound + maybe hit + maybe pushed combo did not work well for me so far and I quickly lost patience.

 

2. Monk dps may do a lot of damage in ideal circumstances but if he gets hit hard then what? He's dead and useless or has to run back and do autoattacks. And if he doesn't get hit no wounds.

 

3. Monk requires a lot of micromanagement which is a stat in itself.

 

4. It has no synergy with the rest of the party. True, neither do some other classes but then again I don't use these other classes either.

 

 

 

My experience with the monk goes like this:

 

Phase 1: Battle started and I've no Wounds.. argh

Phase 2: Argh I got hit! 1/3 hp/end down. Oh look, Wounds!

Phase 3: FoA.. yeah.. finally some action. (a moment later) *missed* ..ffs..

Phase 4: Argh another hit! 2/3 hp/end down. Evacuate! Oh wait can't because of disengagement mechanic.

Phase 5: Fight to the death!

Phase 6. Death.

 

 

 

And that, my good sir, is my point exactly.

 

 

People keep coming over here saying "I'm playing [class] on easy and it's awesome!" , 'course it's awesome you tool...

 

Monks in Hard are OK but require a lot of micro, and while I saw a "monk enervating blows + rogue" post, I should point out that this requires a custom party, thus forfeiting the banter and quests from the included NPCs.

 

 

Now and regarding PotD, of course it introduces imbalance and of course it's imperfect, very much like Heart Of Fury was for IWD and IWD2, where a lousy goblin could gib one of your casters, and wouldn't go down from a max DC horrid wilting.

 

But that's the ultimate challenge of the game, one would argue, and it makes sense to consider a class' worthiness with regards to a PotD party.

 

 

From my experience :

- Cipher, mandatory, for the spammable single-target lifesaver CC

- Druid, recommended, for the large AOE CC and Sneak Attack tagging

- Fighter, mandatory, for the frontline

- Priest, mandatory, to keep your fighter alive and bolster your backline's defense and offense

- Rogue, very very much recommended, to get past that pesky DR

That leaves you with the one open spot, which should go to a Chanter for the spammable summons.

 

 

My PotD Monk doesn't shine very much, he keeps missing, he can't take hits like a Fighter, he has no regen, he can't CC correctly...

 

I liked my Normal Monk very much, I hate my PotD.

[AncientToaster]

 

 

You're playing < PotD , anything is absolutely great < PotD.

My own monk melted faces on Normal and could frontline like a baws while my backline just stood there and watched.

 

Then you hit PotD, get up against 70 def enemies with 18 DR, against your level 3 monk.

And that's where you realize your awesome stunning punches just don't connect 8/10 times, and your Force of Anguish consistently fails to knock enemies prone.

On top of that, your unarmed attacks now deal 3-6 damage per hit, while lions crit you for 40+.

 

In the meantime, 3 mobs got past your tank and are now mauling your backline, you're out of stunning punches, your FoA missed but at least you're still on 7/10 endurance.

You get crit for 60 damage and drop to 2/10 endurance + 7 wounds.

You dump them all in more FoAs which miss superbly.

You press F8.

 

 

There's no need for PoTD elitism. That mode is in itself broken, as it's usually the case when you make hard mode by simply inflating the stats. Then the balance is completely off and many skills and playstyles become pointless.

 

So let's talk about Hard (possibly ironman) balance. And if 6-man hard is too easy let's talk about 5-man hard or 4-man hard - it doesn't matter.

 

My first impression of a monk (first several levels) is that it's underpowered, fragile, and requires too much micromanagement. Now, I'm not giving up on a monk yet (although I rage-remove it from the party after 2 minutes every time I try him), and will try it with leech weapon which I did not have before. If leech doesn't help enough then the class is useless because "taking others down with me" is not a successful tactic. My current party can win most battles without a scratch so why do I need a monk? People say he does a lot of damage. I have a few problems with that claim:

 

1. Dps monk is a liability, and you don't want that in ironman mode. Non dps monk is for my party worse than other tanks. I still remember when I played PotD how FoA ability never pushed any enemy that was actually dangerous - it only worked on weak useless enemies (and that's when it actually managed to hit of course). In Hard I hoped that would work better but let's say that the whole wound + maybe hit + maybe pushed combo did not work well for me so far and I quickly lost patience.

 

2. Monk dps may do a lot of damage in ideal circumstances but if he gets hit hard then what? He's dead and useless or has to run back and do autoattacks. And if he doesn't get hit no wounds.

 

3. Monk requires a lot of micromanagement which is a stat in itself.

 

4. It has no synergy with the rest of the party. True, neither do some other classes but then again I don't use these other classes either.

 

 

 

My experience with the monk goes like this:

 

Phase 1: Battle started and I've no Wounds.. argh

Phase 2: Argh I got hit! 1/3 hp/end down. Oh look, Wounds!

Phase 3: FoA.. yeah.. finally some action. (a moment later) *missed* ..ffs..

Phase 4: Argh another hit! 2/3 hp/end down. Evacuate! Oh wait can't because of disengagement mechanic.

Phase 5: Fight to the death!

Phase 6. Death.

 

 

 

And that, my good sir, is my point exactly.

 

 

People keep coming over here saying "I'm playing [class] on easy and it's awesome!" , 'course it's awesome you tool...

 

Monks in Hard are OK but require a lot of micro, and while I saw a "monk enervating blows + rogue" post, I should point out that this requires a custom party, thus forfeiting the banter and quests from the included NPCs.

 

 

Now and regarding PotD, of course it introduces imbalance and of course it's imperfect, very much like Heart Of Fury was for IWD and IWD2, where a lousy goblin could gib one of your casters, and wouldn't go down from a max DC horrid wilting.

 

But that's the ultimate challenge of the game, one would argue, and it makes sense to consider a class' worthiness with regards to a PotD party.

 

 

From my experience :

- Cipher, mandatory, for the spammable single-target lifesaver CC

- Druid, recommended, for the large AOE CC and Sneak Attack tagging

- Fighter, mandatory, for the frontline

- Priest, mandatory, to keep your fighter alive and bolster your backline's defense and offense

- Rogue, very very much recommended, to get past that pesky DR

That leaves you with the one open spot, which should go to a Chanter for the spammable summons.

 

 

My PotD Monk doesn't shine very much, he keeps missing, he can't take hits like a Fighter, he has no regen, he can't CC correctly...

 

I liked my Normal Monk very much, I hate my PotD.

 

 

No need to start calling people "tools" and I disagree with you pretty much on everything. PoTD isn't the end all be all difficulty to judge if a class is worthy. It's a mode for masochists to get their hardcore jollies. It's not balanced and it's not the normal way to play the game the way the developers intended it, hard mode was.

[boon]

My PotD Monk leads my team in damage done, he is a beast. Max str/dex, high con. Wearing Eder's armor for second chance. (He also leads the team in damage taken lol.)

[Epsilon Rose]

Alright, I don't know how my monk compares to my cipher because I often use cipher for CC, I know how he compares to druids though whom I exclusively use for damage, and other melee classes whom I often use for damage, compared to pretty much everything but barb retaliation builds (which are broken as all hell) monk is performing great.

 

Ok, so how much micro does your monk see versus your other characters? If it's significantly more, than that could also skew things.

Yeah, IMHO any issues with the Monk and PotD are systemic of accuracy being removed from attributes late in the backer beta. Whiffing abilities is punishing enough, but abilities that require wounds are doubly so. I don't think anyone should expect knock backs, prone, stun etc to work consistently on PotD though.

 

The problem I have is people on these forums are saying "The Monk is bad." This is flat out untrue. If your only considering the highest difficulty then say so. However, claiming the class doesn't work as a blanket statement isn't helping anyone.

 

@The Josip

 

1) no more a liability than a melee Cipher, or other frontline squishes. The class requires positioning.

 

2). Don't move in with tanks, and you won't get aggro from the bulk of enemies. If you get focused use AoE CC from a caster. If you don't get aggro you can use your other characters to hit the monk. I use an archer to pop the monk once or twice to generate quick wounds, or (post level 9) Thrust of tattered veils is per encounter, or aim the AoEs so they hit the monk (not big damage AoE, but lighter damage ones). Not having enemies attack you doesn't mean you can't have wounds. It just turns into a cost vs rewards scenario. What will do more damage? That per encounter thrust of tattered veils, or 2 Torment's Reach on the cluster around the tank?

 

3). Fair.

 

4). Enervating Blows + a Rogue in party. FoA can push mobs into AoEs. It may not have a lot of synergy, but it can be made to have some. I have used my monk, with 0 wounds, as my archer's pin cushion in order to proc Rooting Pain + Use those wounds for Torment's Reach to kill the remaining enemies around my tank.

 

All of this is in hard difficulty. I won't argue the class's value in PotD, but I think that is an issue with PotD moreso than the Monk class itself. Especially after attribute changes in BB.

 

Class is great. You just have to play it a good bit different than any other class.

For number 2, aren't you effectively arguing that you should decrease the dps of another class so the monk can function?

[Ganrich]

Who cares about DPS on class 1 if it is a more tactically sound idea to convert his meager single target thrust of tattered vwild damage into solid AOE? I do what is better for the moment for 3he party. It does enough to cause a wound or 3 though. If my I don't want to use a per rest ability then I will convert a weak spell from the wizard into an AoE from the Monk.

[Climhazzard]

You don't really need to shoot your monk to generate wounds, just make sure he engages at least one guy, then if that one guy isn't generating wounds fast enough, force a disengagement attack.  If you are fighting two guys, judge how fast you are taking damage, if it's to fast then blow one of them away with force of anguish.  If you end up fighting 3 guys, you need to have your party CC one too (unless they are relatively weak in comparison to your monk), but CC from your party is why you have a party so I don't see the issue  here.  Monks require a lot of micromanagement, it's just that kind of class, if you don't like to micromanage characters then monk isn't the class for you.  There are party synergies you can use with monk, a pale elf reflexes monk for example, put him in front of your wizards and use them to fry the enemies engaged with your monk and generate wounds at the same time.

 

I only play on hard, I can't speak for PotD, but I notice people commenting on monk accuracy, monk isn't a low accuracy class so if accuracy is an issue then it's an issue with PotD.  On hard I always group buff accuracy with my priest as a battle starts, it just makes the fight that much faster, and my monk abilities don't miss.  I imagine on PotD you have to do this even more, there is a tier 4 priest spell for example that adds +20 accuracy and reduces foe accuracy by +20, it's huge.  It seems like buffing/debuffing is the key to fictory there.  But I honestly don't think this discussion should be about PotD, it, as others have said, it isn't balanced.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Elgyn]

Continuation from race balance. And here let me piss people off by hyperbolizing the tier titles again:

 

God Tier

 

Cipher

 

I've played a lot of Cipher and I think the Focus mechanic is really what brings the class into crazy-town. I think if they started combat at 0 focus and had to work their way up, while fixing some of the crazy ways a Cipher can gain a quick pool of focus (ala Blunderbuss), then the class would be much more in line with the other strong choices.

 

Mental Binding should also be moved up a tier (or three) and cost more focus. That is probably the best and most efficient ability in the entire game.

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher would be garbage tier if starting at 0 focus. He's mostly just good at demonstrating how much better spellcasters are to those who aren't good at managing their spells per rest usage. Most of his spells are weaker than druid/priest/wizard. He has a few OP spells though.

[dam]

 

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

 

 

On hard my monk consistently outputs more than any other class I've played, without excessive knockouts.  I don't use things I consider broken so that statement doesn't count certain barb builds, but it does include ciphers because I always use them, though usually for control.

 

Some people I guess are just going to keep theorycrafting about how bad monks are until they get buffed, then they'll be OP, people will realize they were great in the first place, and they'll get nerfed as a result.  I'm not really looking forward to the process tbh.  Give monk a try for a full playthrough, and you'll realize he's just fine how he is.  Just a hint, don't build him as a tank or a glass cannon.  Try dual sabers + torment's reach if you really want something fun.

 

 

 

So we're talking about a class whose defining trait is the use of their fists, you recommend dual sabers for their damage, and nothing strikes you as awfully wrong ?

 

You may want to rethink it through -.-

[Ganrich]

Shooting your monk is an edge case. Sometimes you don't get engagement when you would like. Sometimes you kill all the targets but the ones on the tank for one reason or another. When those moments arise there is nothing wrong with using an excess resource to proc Rooting Pain, and use wounds to spam a couple TRs. Turning mediocre single target into AoE. You could also just target the Monk with a wizard and get blast damage to boot.