Eothas and the whole Godhammer thing

[pagulhan]

I believe I've completed every quest I could but 1 in the 2. act and a few followers quests: Durance (as I find him useless and read his quest's bugged the way there's no possibility to complete it anyway), mother's (as I read there's no simple "talk -> start the quest -> complete the quest", rather a "travel with her for a long time and one day she speaks to you"), druid's (due to the loading bug - by the time I wanted to do his quest it was like 15 seconds to enter a new location and I just gave up) and the palladin girl (she didn't even join the party as I couldn't find her).

 

The question is: why am I reading (on this forum) that the Saints War was all about stopping Thaos? Where can I find such information in the game? Did I miss it because of the companions' quests I didn't complete?

[Khrysophylax]

I don't believe this interpretation of events is mentioned much in the game, but a lot of us fans speculate that Eothas got wind of Thaos' plans to feed Woedica thousands of mortal souls so she could usurp the pantheon once again. It's based on a line of dialogue you -might- get with Durance when you reveal to him that Magran conspired with Woedica and meant to kill him.

Given that Eothas and Woedica have pretty much diametrically opposing 'portfolios' (in D&D terms), it's not difficult to see why he felt motivated to act. So he crossed a line, incarnated himself in the form of St. Waidwen, and (the theory goes) led the invasion of the Dyrwood intending to physically dismantle the machines Thaos was using for his plans. This led Magran and the other gods to overreact and cross a line themselves, leading up to the Godhammer (in which Magran conspired with Woedica to kill Eothas) and another minor crisis, revealing that the gods could be killed.

 

This was bad news, but it actually ended up working quite well for Thaos, as he was able to (eventually) pin the blame for the Hollowborn epidemic squarely on animancy and further advance his plans.

 

Unfortunately, the game doesn't give us a lot of hope that Eothas is still alive. Whereas Woedica can definitely be seen 'on the roads' at the end of the game, I'm pretty sure Eothas is gone for good. Too bad, as I quite liked the guy, and if this interpretation is correct, he went out trying to be a Big Damn Hero.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Khrysophylax

[Jasta11]

It's not explicitely mentioned in the game, albeit you can bring it up as a theory in a conversation with Durance later on. But it's something that seems to make sense once you complete the game and have an understanding of the bigger picture, as well as the respective portfolios of Eothas and Woedica. 

[Luj1]

Blowing up a living god with a bomb in a fantasy setting is cool. Lord Dagoth approves.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Luj1

[Khrysophylax]

It's not explicitely mentioned in the game, albeit you can bring it up as a theory in a conversation with Durance later on. But it's something that seems to make sense once you complete the game and have an understanding of the bigger picture, as well as the respective portfolios of Eothas and Woedica. 

 

It also explains the seemingly out-of-character (for Eothas) behavior on St. Waidwen's part, such as persecuting the other faiths when he's supposed to be a Neutral Good good of hope and light. I've no doubt being possessed by a god turned Waidwen into a gibbering megalomaniac, of course, but if Eothas really was trying to stop Thaos' plans, it makes sense to attack the other gods for being part of 'the system' as well.

[WMEffectiveness]

Not resolving every plot thread in this game gives Obsidian room to continue the story in an expansion or sequel.  While its fustrating to not have all the answers by game's end, I approve of this tactic (if Obsidian had this tactic in mind when writing the story).

[RedCloudFuneral]

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans. Hence his destruction makes sense(he stands to be either a real god or another created god from a different civilization.) Either option makes him a threat to the pantheon of gods & this resolves the Waidwen scenario from conflicting. The gods of the Engwithan pantheon are very straight forward/of one mind, but Eothas can go against the ideal he represents.

 

I noted in another thread that if this does become part of the story it opens up some interesting topics of discussion. They could take it in the direction that the people of Eora killed the only true god to appease the 'fakes' or it could become a discussion on Monotheism vs Polytheism. In reality Polytheistic faiths generally have deities that are a singular ideal perfected(as the gods in PoE are) whilst Monotheistic faiths have gods that can behave contradictory at times(or whom are at least more complex.)

[Namutree]

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans.

How could that be? The reason that Engwithans made the gods was because there were no gods. None.

 

They didn't let anyone else know that the gods were or could be constructed either. If any other civilization even got close to figuring out the truth the Leaden Key would ruin their efforts. Not to mention the current "gods" wouldn't likely want their power trivialized by letting other societies create gods.

[SpitefulOne]

I don't believe this interpretation of events is mentioned much in the game, but a lot of us fans speculate that Eothas got wind of Thaos' plans to feed Woedica thousands of mortal souls so she could usurp the pantheon once again. It's based on a line of dialogue you -might- get with Durance when you reveal to him that Magran conspired with Woedica and meant to kill him.

 

Given that Eothas and Woedica have pretty much diametrically opposing 'portfolios' (in D&D terms), it's not difficult to see why he felt motivated to act. So he crossed a line, incarnated himself in the form of St. Waidwen, and (the theory goes) led the invasion of the Dyrwood intending to physically dismantle the machines Thaos was using for his plans. This led Magran and the other gods to overreact and cross a line themselves, leading up to the Godhammer (in which Magran conspired with Woedica to kill Eothas) and another minor crisis, revealing that the gods could be killed.

 

This was bad news, but it actually ended up working quite well for Thaos, as he was able to (eventually) pin the blame for the Hollowborn epidemic squarely on animancy and further advance his plans.

 

Unfortunately, the game doesn't give us a lot of hope that Eothas is still alive. Whereas Woedica can definitely be seen 'on the roads' at the end of the game, I'm pretty sure Eothas is gone for good. Too bad, as I quite liked the guy, and if this interpretation is correct, he went out trying to be a Big Damn Hero.

 

 

He is just a gigantic soul... so some splintering may occur but he could be back in a few years reincarnated.

[MasterPrudent]

He is just a gigantic soul... so some splintering may occur but he could be back in a few years reincarnated.

Well there's no clarification in the game as to what exactly the gods are, although I do recall that someone refers to them as "pure ideals". If he is just a great big soul then he could theoretically be held in Breith Eaman for as long as the other gods desired.

[SpitefulOne]

 

He is just a gigantic soul... so some splintering may occur but he could be back in a few years reincarnated.

Well there's no clarification in the game as to what exactly the gods are, although I do recall that someone refers to them as "pure ideals". If he is just a great big soul then he could theoretically be held in Breith Eaman for as long as the other gods desired.

 

 

 

Everything is formed from soul energy with animancy, the Gods were just giant soul constructs that were programmed with certain ideals and personalities but they were made of the same stuff as a smaller soul.

 

So all of his energy was either obliterated and ceased to exist or it was 'killed' and sent back into the wheel. So unless the bomb had a good deal of animancy behind it to obliterate the soul like a Watcher seems capable of doing, it simply destroyed the vessel and sent the soul back into the wheel.

 

[Khrysophylax]

Additionally, the gods themselves were soul-forged using (at the low order) thousands of sacrificial Engwithan souls. It's something of an interesting question whether the death of one would cause it to splinter back into its many constituent parts, or if (having been fused and held together for so many thousands of years) it was now only one gigantic soul which would have then gone back into the Wheel.

 

Very interesting ideas, indeed.

[MasterPrudent]

Is the information about the gods' creation stated explicitly in the game or are you putting it together from the way the Engwithan machines work? Or is it in the lore book?

[MasterPrudent]

Is the information about the gods' creation stated explicitly in the game or are you putting it together from the way the Engwithan machines work? Or is it in the lore book?

EDIT: Never mind went through the ending again. Not sure how I missed that.

[SpitefulOne]

The Gods could be continuously splintering and consuming souls which would explain the Godlike. They could be seeing a bunch of Eothas godlikes born as his splinters merge back into the cycle.

[Kingdinosaur]

 

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans.

How could that be? The reason that Engwithans made the gods was because there were no gods. None.

 

I'm not certain this is true based on how the Leaden Key worked.  They liked hiding the truth and people didn't know everything or each other.  It's very possible that the people searching for the gods were lead astray purposefully in order to justify creating new ones.  If you look at the pantheon, a big chunk of them liked to obscure the truth in their own ways and for their own reasons.  The "there aren't other gods" thing could just be a carefully fabricated lie.

[Lord Wafflebum]

Maybe a future installment will involve recreating Eothas

[SpitefulOne]

 

 

 

 

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans.

How could that be? The reason that Engwithans made the gods was because there were no gods. None.

I'm not certain this is true based on how the Leaden Key worked. They liked hiding the truth and people didn't know everything or each other. It's very possible that the people searching for the gods were lead astray purposefully in order to justify creating new ones. If you look at the pantheon, a big chunk of them liked to obscure the truth in their own ways and for their own reasons. The "there aren't other gods" thing could just be a carefully fabricated lie.

You're just making things up from whole cloth at this point. Maybe the world is about to get overrun by stealthed Vithraki that are using their mind powers to not be seen and you're literally walking amongst 1000000's of them the entire game but your mechanics score just isn't high enough to see them.

[Shadow_Arms]

Maybe a future installment will involve recreating Eothas

or maybe the Watcher is Eothas Incarnate

 

 

reborn to bring order back to the world, now that woedica wants to pull out a Tribunal on everyone and become a true god

[Namutree]

 

 

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans.

How could that be? The reason that Engwithans made the gods was because there were no gods. None.

 

I'm not certain this is true based on how the Leaden Key worked.  They liked hiding the truth and people didn't know everything or each other.  It's very possible that the people searching for the gods were lead astray purposefully in order to justify creating new ones.  If you look at the pantheon, a big chunk of them liked to obscure the truth in their own ways and for their own reasons.  The "there aren't other gods" thing could just be a carefully fabricated lie.

 

Lead ashtray by whom? The Leaden Key was formed by Engwithans themselves. The point being to hide that there were no real gods, and that the "gods" that exist now are just constructs. For there to be secret gods that actually existed is to throw out a big part of the plot; which is that the Engwithans learned there are no gods. 

[Namutree]

Maybe a future installment will involve recreating Eothas

Could be.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

It also stands as an option that Eothas was not one of the gods created by the Engwithans.

How could that be? The reason that Engwithans made the gods was because there were no gods. None.

 

I'm not certain this is true based on how the Leaden Key worked.  They liked hiding the truth and people didn't know everything or each other.  It's very possible that the people searching for the gods were lead astray purposefully in order to justify creating new ones.  If you look at the pantheon, a big chunk of them liked to obscure the truth in their own ways and for their own reasons.  The "there aren't other gods" thing could just be a carefully fabricated lie.

 

Lead ashtray by whom? The Leaden Key was formed by Engwithans themselves. The point being to hide that there were no real gods, and that the "gods" that exist now are just constructs. For there to be secret gods that actually existed is to throw out a big part of the plot; which is that the Engwithans learned there are no gods. 

 

For what it's worth, the lore book that came with the higher tiers says that some of the gods appear in some ways to predate the others. Ondra and Rymgrand are specifically pointed out with this; the legends of Ondra are the oldest legends of any god, and references to Rymgrand are found in the oldest, earliest Engwithan ruins.

[dirigible]

For what it's worth, the lore book that came with the higher tiers says that some of the gods appear in some ways to predate the others. Ondra and Rymgrand are specifically pointed out with this; the legends of Ondra are the oldest legends of any god, and references to Rymgrand are found in the oldest, earliest Engwithan ruins.

Keep in mind, people worshipped gods before any gods actually existed.

 

My interpretation is that when the Engwithans created gods, they based some of their creations on the gods they had previously worshipped. After all - imagine a universe in which the Norse vikings found out there were no gods, and then decided to create some of their own. They would probably create a Thor, and an Odin, and a Baldur, etc. Thus, it would still appear that some gods predate others, since their legends were being created before they existed.

[Lord Wafflebum]

My thought is that if there were old gods, they left somewhere and kinda just left the wheel to do its thing. I could see an issue where the "old gods" tried to come back and found these, I guess artificial intelligence gods, in their place. They were unsurprisingly unhappy about that and are looking to take their place back, and mayhaps that's why Woedica is trying to shore up power because the "new gods" can't seem to come to a consensus on what to do about it. 

 

My thought is that Eothas, being a generally good guy, wanted to find a way to live alongside the old gods and Woedica, having been burned by her fellow gods before, was unwilling to give up even more power and influence. Thus, she started to shore up alliances and plotted with Thaos, Magran, and Skaen to become as powerful as possible to hopefully get rid of the old gods trying to come back to do god stuff.

 

I could see a future installment dealing with the fallout of some sort of god war.

[Kingdinosaur]

Lead ashtray by whom? The Leaden Key was formed by Engwithans themselves. The point being to hide that there were no real gods, and that the "gods" that exist now are just constructs. For there to be secret gods that actually existed is to throw out a big part of the plot; which is that the Engwithans learned there are no gods. 

 

 

 

I'm thinking other Engwithans could have, especially those who would gain from creating a pantheon or from casting off the old one.  I mean look at Thaos in the sanitarium.  He lead that one researcher astray for his own purposes of revitalizing Woedica.  Who's to say he or someone like him didn't do something similar to the Engwithans?  Are you familiar with 1984 and how the memory hole thing worked?  It could have easily been the case that someone needed a more convenient set of gods and needed to do away with the old ones that were getting in the way.  I mean they were created for a specific purpose of controlling people. 

 

A decision could have been made into creating a new pantheon before the research into gods started when someone realized they could create a god-like fascimile and by necessity any existing gods would have to be obscured. 

 

I mean you don't have to look any farther than real life to see what kind of power you can get if you decide to make up a religion for whatever. 

 

Of course this is assuming they really had the ability to see gods they didn't make.  They could have failed but because of illusitory superiority just assumed that not finding gods meant there were none.  I mean in the real world, trying to prove or disprove the existance of God is like trying to study the sky with a stethiscope... you're doing it wrong.  It could be that the wheel was all they found because that's as good as the tools they had would allow them to find.  You can't see bacteria with only a +1 pair of glasses; you need real magnification that.

 

If you look at the game, there was a strong theme of mystery and people not knowing the truth to anything.  It would certainly fit that theme if even the plot essential characters like Thaos and that elf woman had incomplete knowledge or were purposefully mislead.  It could very well have been such knowledge of the gods being fake was slipped loose because there could have been another faction that wanted its own set of gods and wanted to be running the show.  If people lost faith in the made up gods, you could reveal a set of "elder gods" you yourself created.

 

In the end, some of it is also looking at the real world for inspiration.  People will go a long way for power and quieting voices of dissent goes a long way.  Thaos is a repersentitive example of those who would do anything to achieve the power they want.