No buffing outside of combat, why?

[Stun]

And after 15 years of game mastery, you don't need prebuffing to acquire "godmode" in the IE games anyway. A solo Sorcerer with 9th level spells and the Staff of the Magi is "godmode" already. No pre-buffing needed.

 

But the fact of the matter is that "prebuffs done correctly" is something that takes a fair deal of experience and metagaming. In my first playthrough of Bg2 (which came after about 20 playthroughs of BG1), I wasn't able to 'trivialize combat" with pre-buffs. That kind of total expertise came *much* later for me. The stuff that Alesia_BH, Frabjous and the other hangers-on of our generation do is the same. It's the combined result of an entire community collectively mastering a game they spent last decade and a half of their lives playing, testing, mechanics-throttling, engine-dissecting, tactics-debating, and even modding.

 

Lets employ a little more perspective here.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Stun

[WebShaman]

 

 

No, the purpose of pre-buffing in IE games was to make you stronger so you can win. That's it

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

 

Pre-buffing can be a LOT more meaningful than simply "making you stronger". And I'll give you a very common example. Invisibility. Invisibility is an IE game pre-buff. But it doesn't make you stronger. Instead, it simply opens up new tactical avenues. It allows for optimal positioning. It sets up your Thief. It places your Fighter in front of the Enemy's mage so that when the fight begins, that mage is instantly put into a melee situation. And no, PoE's pathetic excuse for Stealth is not a valid substitute, because it doesn't work that way at all.

 

And then there's Protection from Evil. In BG2, Protection from evil is more than a buff that makes you stronger. It's a buff that nullifies an enemy's demon summoning spells. it forces that demon to ignore you, allowing you to focus your efforts on the enemy itself, instead of the enemy's summon.

 

We are denied these tactical options in PoE, NOT because of "balance" (or whatever the preferred argument on this thread currently is) but because Josh Sawyer thinks that pre-buffing is Rote, and that Combat should be more quick and 'actiony'. <gag>

 

 

Pre-buffing in BG results in godmode when done correctly if you have mage spells. Improved invisibility plus a few spell immunities divination makes you always invisible and immune to targeting by spells. Throw in SI: abjuration, protection from energy, protection from evil, a spell shield , globes of invulnerability and so on and the base game AI can not touch you. You need SCS and SCS II to get mages to use anti-magic spells properly. These mods also allow your enemies to prebuff as well. Check out the no=reload threads on Bioware's BG legacy forum and read up on Alessia (sp?) and her solo no reload beatdowns. In one example it would have taken seven ruby rays of reversal to start to drop the buffs and this was in Ascension Final battle.

 

I for one am glad that the pre-buffing arms race is cancelled in this game.

 

Now you can hit the enemy priest or mage before the game changing buffs are up. If they were all pre-buffrd to the max at the start it would be crazy. Not allowing the enemy to pre-buff while allowing you to do so would totally break immersion and make no sense.

 

Another problem would be for the game AI to figure out which buffs to use. Better to balance the base saves and abilities of the monsters without taking pre-buffs into account and then just balance the spells for both player and monster.

 

If you can pre-buff then the smart move is to always pre-buff. This wastes your spell resources and promotes sleeping every other fight. If you choose not to pre-buff and get rolled then you just save scum and repeat with the proper pre-buffs.

 

How would the ability and requirement of pre-buffing increase the tactical choices in the game or improve the game experience?

 

For starters, it would allow other classes (re: Wizard/Priest) a chance besides Cipher to perhaps solo PotD, etc?

 

Besides, this game is not BG/BG2!  Buffs in this game last seconds, not hours.  This has been explained before.

[endolex]

 

 

No, the purpose of pre-buffing in IE games was to make you stronger so you can win. That's it

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

 

Pre-buffing can be a LOT more meaningful than simply "making you stronger". And I'll give you a very common example. Invisibility. Invisibility is an IE game pre-buff. But it doesn't make you stronger. Instead, it simply opens up new tactical avenues. It allows for optimal positioning. It sets up your Thief. It places your Fighter in front of the Enemy's mage so that when the fight begins, that mage is instantly put into a melee situation. And no, PoE's pathetic excuse for Stealth is not a valid substitute, because it doesn't work that way at all.

 

And then there's Protection from Evil. In BG2, Protection from evil is more than a buff that makes you stronger. It's a buff that nullifies an enemy's demon summoning spells. it forces that demon to ignore you, allowing you to focus your efforts on the enemy itself, instead of the enemy's summon.

 

We are denied these tactical options in PoE, NOT because of "balance" (or whatever the preferred argument on this thread currently is) but because Josh Sawyer thinks that pre-buffing is Rote, and that Combat should be more quick and 'actiony'. <gag>

 

 

Pre-buffing in BG results in godmode when done correctly if you have mage spells. Improved invisibility plus a few spell immunities divination makes you always invisible and immune to targeting by spells. Throw in SI: abjuration, protection from energy, protection from evil, a spell shield , globes of invulnerability and so on and the base game AI can not touch you. You need SCS and SCS II to get mages to use anti-magic spells properly. These mods also allow your enemies to prebuff as well. Check out the no=reload threads on Bioware's BG legacy forum and read up on Alessia (sp?) and her solo no reload beatdowns. In one example it would have taken seven ruby rays of reversal to start to drop the buffs and this was in Ascension Final battle.

 

I for one am glad that the pre-buffing arms race is cancelled in this game.

 

Now you can hit the enemy priest or mage before the game changing buffs are up. If they were all pre-buffrd to the max at the start it would be crazy. Not allowing the enemy to pre-buff while allowing you to do so would totally break immersion and make no sense.

 

Another problem would be for the game AI to figure out which buffs to use. Better to balance the base saves and abilities of the monsters without taking pre-buffs into account and then just balance the spells for both player and monster.

 

If you can pre-buff then the smart move is to always pre-buff. This wastes your spell resources and promotes sleeping every other fight. If you choose not to pre-buff and get rolled then you just save scum and repeat with the proper pre-buffs.

 

How would the ability and requirement of pre-buffing increase the tactical choices in the game or improve the game experience?

 

 

Only there are no such ridiculously strong buffs as Improved Invisibility or Spellshield or whatever in PoE. There would be no 'arms race' of that kind just because all spells could be cast outside of combat.

[Luckmann]

For starters, it would allow other classes (re: Wizard/Priest) a chance besides Cipher to perhaps solo PotD, etc?

 

Besides, this game is not BG/BG2!  Buffs in this game last seconds, not hours.  This has been explained before.

Yeah, I'm getting really ****ing tired of the tiresome comparisons to the IE games in terms of self-buffing. It's starting to become a mantra that's just being repeated in the vain hopes that people will understand it, but they don't, so we just continue like buddhist monks.

• There were issues.
• Those issues are largely absent from PoE.
• Saying that we either have self-buffing exactly like in BG2 or no buffing whatsoever is a false dichotomy.
• Buffing outside of combat would cost time, effort and resources, same as any other meaningful decisions at any other point, whether tactical or strategic.

It just keeps going in circles every time someone new shows up and doesn't read the thread, and thus needs to have it all repeated to them.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Luckmann

[WebShaman]

Yeah, in this game it is like a double whammy!  Really short buffs and no pre-buffing combined.  So super conserve stuff...until along comes Cipher!

 

Cipher!  Cipher!

 

Cast, cast, cast away!  Sort of totally breaks the "conserve yer spells laddy" thing, doesn't it?

 

Same goes with Chanter.  Chant, chant, chant away!  Then summon!  Then summon some more!  Use figurine for even more!

 

But don't you DARE let those evah Whizzahs ta pre-buff!  Nossirie bob!

 

Good grief!

[ibanix]

 

 

[...]

 

Although pre-buffing does make games tedious, the reason for that is that it removes tactical choices from the heat of combat. That is the issue.

 

[...]

How? Why? I can see no reason as to why that statement would be true.

 

 

 

 

PeE buffing is - at least with regards to my playstyle and skill - a bit different. Instead of picking the generally best buffs which I know will be fine against almost all encounters, I now wait for the encounter to begin before deciding the optimal buffs, based on that particular encounter. However, due to time constraints, there's much fewer buffs to chose from. But, since I actually know who and how many I am fighting, I can chose the optimal buffs for that particular situation, which is - again - different from encounter to encounter. This - depending on what we mean by the term - seems much more tactically engaging.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly the reason I like the PoE combat-only buff better. It forces players to make harder choices about buffs (and character actions in general), given limited options and time. It's more strategic. I can understand how this does not appeal to players of IE-era games who got used to regular pre-buffing.

[ibanix]

Yeah, in this game it is like a double whammy!  Really short buffs and no pre-buffing combined.  So super conserve stuff...until along comes Cipher!

 

Cipher!  Cipher!

 

Cast, cast, cast away!  Sort of totally breaks the "conserve yer spells laddy" thing, doesn't it?

 

Same goes with Chanter.  Chant, chant, chant away!  Then summon!  Then summon some more!  Use figurine for even more!

 

But don't you DARE let those evah Whizzahs ta pre-buff!  Nossirie bob!

 

Good grief!

 

To be fair, Chanter buffs are more limited in choice than Priest buffs (and the few Wizard buffs), and they take longer to build up to an Invocation. 

[ibanix]

What I find interesting about PoE in general is that it is heavily focused toward group buffing. A Priest, a Chanter and a Paladin in your group will massively increase your effectiveness. Even just one will provide substantial group bonuses. This feels very different from IE-era stuff to me. (That's a good thing.) Buffs may be far shorter and you can't pre-buff, but those buffs are REALLY useful during actual combat.

[Namutree]

 

 

It forces players to make harder choices about buffs (and character actions in general)

 

Not really. Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE does nothing to force us to make harder choices. Using pre-buffs in PoE would mean you get less out of them. That's not meaningless as the wizard can only cast so many spells per day, and the duration in PoE are very short. Taking away that option adds nothing. Although it does serve to help make playing a wizard feel more constrained.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yeah, in this game it is like a double whammy!  Really short buffs and no pre-buffing combined.  So super conserve stuff...until along comes Cipher!

 

Cipher!  Cipher!

 

Cast, cast, cast away!  Sort of totally breaks the "conserve yer spells laddy" thing, doesn't it?

 

Same goes with Chanter.  Chant, chant, chant away!  Then summon!  Then summon some more!  Use figurine for even more!

 

But don't you DARE let those evah Whizzahs ta pre-buff!  Nossirie bob!

 

Good grief!

 

Cipher reminds me of the Barbarian in D3 but with a full globe of rage from the outset. Cipher already has maximum focus when entering combat, can cast spells straight away but then needs to use their standard attacks to increase their focus back up (just like Barbarian hitting to get their rage up) and then use abilities again. An unlimited amount of usage from their spells as long as they have enough focus.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Shevek]

Theres no reason to limit prebuffing. There is limited resting already to prevent rest spam and spell durations are short. The combat state flag should go.

[ibanix]

 

 

 

It forces players to make harder choices about buffs (and character actions in general)

 

Not really. Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE does nothing to force us to make harder choices. Using pre-buffs in PoE would mean you get less out of them. That's not meaningless as the wizard can only cast so many spells per day, and the duration in PoE are very short. Taking away that option adds nothing. Although it does serve to help make playing a wizard feel more constrained.

 

 

You can't pre-buff => You have to cast buffs during battle => You have limited amount of buffs to choose from in a given time => Your choice in buffs affects the outcome of the battle 

 

vs

 

You can pre-buff => You don't have to cast your (same) buffs during battle => You have no pressure to chose/cast buffs during battle => Your choice of buffs during battle has less impact

 

 

Having to choose buffs during battle clearly and obviously forces harder choices on the player. If this chain of logic does not make sense to you, please go take a course in basic logic and return.

[ibanix]

 

Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE does nothing to force us to make harder choices. 

 

 

Yes. And that's a GOOD thing.

[Namutree]

 

Having to choose buffs during battle clearly and obviously forces harder choices on the player. 

 

No, no it doesn't. That would only be the case if pre-buffing was better than using buffs in battle, which wouldn't be the case.

 

 

 

 

You can't pre-buff => You have to cast buffs during battle => You have limited amount of buffs to choose from in a given time => Your choice in buffs affects the outcome of the battle 

 

This is true even with pre-buffing. You do realize that buffs in PoE have a very short duration, right? Trying to stack them would just be wasting them. They'll be gone before you're done casting them.

[Namutree]

 

 

Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE does nothing to force us to make harder choices. 

 

 

Yes. And that's a GOOD thing.

 

That's not what you say:

 

 

 buffs during battle clearly and obviously forces harder choices on the player.

[Lmaoboat]

Buffs are one of my main complaints. Mainly because you have so many situational ones, and combat can swing in either direction so fast that it doesn't usually seem worth the effort spent figuring out what kind stuff the enemies do and spending the rounds casting them. 

[Luckmann]

 

Yeah, in this game it is like a double whammy!  Really short buffs and no pre-buffing combined.  So super conserve stuff...until along comes Cipher!

 

Cipher!  Cipher!

 

Cast, cast, cast away!  Sort of totally breaks the "conserve yer spells laddy" thing, doesn't it?

 

Same goes with Chanter.  Chant, chant, chant away!  Then summon!  Then summon some more!  Use figurine for even more!

 

But don't you DARE let those evah Whizzahs ta pre-buff!  Nossirie bob!

 

Good grief!

 

Cipher reminds me of the Barbarian in D3 but with a full globe of rage from the outset. Cipher already has maximum focus when entering combat, can cast spells straight away but then needs to use their standard attacks to increase their focus back up (just like Barbarian hitting to get their rage up) and then use abilities again. An unlimited amount of usage from their spells as long as they have enough focus.

 

 

Small correction; the Cipher actually only has 50% Focus at the start of battle. I think that should be brought down to 33%, but /eh.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

haha. Nearly at the end of Act 2 and never noticed that. Shows how much I pay attention to GM. GM has a blunderbuss and I usually let her auto-attack most of the time while I manage my other characters first. No wonder it seems like she's always on full.

[ibanix]

 

 

 

Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE does nothing to force us to make harder choices. 

 

 

Yes. And that's a GOOD thing.

 

That's not what you say:

 

 

 buffs during battle clearly and obviously forces harder choices on the player.

 

 

My bad, I misquoted that. I meant to make it say 'Not allowing pre-buffing in PoE forces us to make harder choices. '

 

I blame the vodka.

[ibanix]

 

 

Having to choose buffs during battle clearly and obviously forces harder choices on the player. 

 

No, no it doesn't. That would only be the case if pre-buffing was better than using buffs in battle, which wouldn't be the case.

 

 

 

 

You can't pre-buff => You have to cast buffs during battle => You have limited amount of buffs to choose from in a given time => Your choice in buffs affects the outcome of the battle 

 

This is true even with pre-buffing. You do realize that buffs in PoE have a very short duration, right? Trying to stack them would just be wasting them. They'll be gone before you're done casting them.

 

 

Negative. Typical priest buffs last anywhere from 20-30 seconds, so you could easily cast 2 or 3 while at the edge of stealth engagement range, and then move into engagement range. During battle, your buff casters have to choose between casting the buffs and using weapons or other items/abilities. While being targets of enemy weapons and spells, which could very well prevent said buffs. Being able to pre-cast buffs is a substantial benefit because you get 'free' action as soon as you engage, plus you don't have to worry about your buffs getting interrupted.

 

It baffles me that this is not obvious to everyone.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ibanix

[PitchBlackYeti]

Well, while the lack of pre-buffing doesn't bother me that much, I always liked this aspect in RPGs. It surprises me that so many people scream against it. If you like to keep it this way, fine but I feel that because of the need to buff in combat battles tend to be more chaotic, you have to keep the party grouped until the spell is cast and in the meantime enemies close in on you and can tie your ranged classes in melee with risk of disengagement penalties. At least making the buffs near-instant cast or with bigger radius (so you can send the tanks forward before the buff is cast) would help a lot.

[Luckmann]

haha. Nearly at the end of Act 2 and never noticed that. Shows how much I pay attention to GM. GM has a blunderbuss and I usually let her auto-attack most of the time while I manage my other characters first. No wonder it seems like she's always on full.

This is really part of the probem. Not only is the system obtuse (I didn't even know this myself until this very day), but you don't even need to pay attention to it. You can just sorta bumble your way forward. Does the Cipher start with 100%, 50% or 33%? Doesn't matter, there's points, I'll do some stuff, oh look, success.

 

Theres no reason to limit prebuffing. There is limited resting already to prevent rest spam and spell durations are short. The combat state flag should go.

Death to the Combat Only Flag!

Negative. Typical priest buffs last anywhere from 20-30 seconds, so you could easily cast 2 or 3 while at the edge of stealth engagement range, and then move into engagement range. During battle, your buff casters have to choose between casting the buffs and using weapons or other items/abilities. While being targets of enemy weapons and spells, which could very well prevent said buffs. Being able to pre-cast buffs is a substantial benefit because you get 'free' action as soon as you engage, plus you don't have to worry about your buffs getting interrupted.

 

It baffles me that this is not obvious to everyone.

And in doing so, you've wasted the majority of the buff duration, and even moreso before you've positioned your characters (and positioning is extremely important in PoE, compared to almost everything else), as well as several of your spells that you may not even have needed to use for the battle.

 

You've expended time, effort, and resources, and it may not even have been needed. If you'd play like this when the Combat Only flag was largely scrapped (except very specific cases) you'd be an idiot, and you'd deserve to be punished for it when your buffs run out mid-combat and you've expended all your resting supplies after two encounters.

 

And important battles? Yeah, right, like I'm going to use one of my spells for juuuuust another buff that'll run out 5 seconds into the fight, when I could've saved it for just another well-placed Chill Fog.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Luckmann

[Stun]

You can't pre-buff => You have to cast buffs during battle => You have limited amount of buffs to choose from in a given time => Your choice in buffs affects the outcome of the battle 

 

vs

 

You can pre-buff => You don't have to cast your (same) buffs during battle => You have no pressure to chose/cast buffs during battle => Your choice of buffs during battle has less impact

Both of these statements are false and don't take into consideration things that actually happen in a fight.

 

The first one is just a meaningless non-distinction. Whether you're buffing during a fight or pre-buffing before it, your buffs will Always affect the outcome of a battle. Otherwise the Buffs themselves are useless and shouldn't be in the game in the first place. Likewise, you will always have a limited amount of buffs to choose from in a given time. Casting buffs before a battle still counts towards your per-day casting limitations, doesn't it. And if you buff during a battle, you have to take into account the fact that you're giving your enemy more time to kill you.

 

And the second one is just flat out ridiculous hyperbole. Unless you're fighting nothing but trash mobs (and why are you wasting your buffs on trash mob encounters?) you will always be under pressure to adjust the situation and react accordingly in combat (just because your Priest cast dire blessing on everyone before the fight, doesn't mean he suddenly doesn't have to react to what the enemy does....or you know.... not feel the need to recast those buffs when they expire in the middle of a battle.

 

 

IMO, the only thing that the elimination of prebuffing brings to the equation is that it removes the element of planning/preparation, and makes combat feel a bit too action-y for my tastes. This is a significant departure from the IE game feel. A bad one. And thus I condemn it.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Stun

[Ouroboros226]

I believe I have a solution to all of these problems. Considering that one of the main problems is that many buffs in this game feels useless due to the horridly short duration. A 15 second duration buff is over before you have had time to do anything at all really. So how to address "no out of combat buffing" + "Extremely short duration spells"?

Simple. 

Add a talent to gain the sequencer ability from DnD. 

Example: I put Iron skin, Mirror image and improved accuracy buff into a sequencer. When I click this button, all these three buffs fire off at once. 

Tada! No buffing out of combat AND spell buffs being bad due to low duration + cast times, all solved in one. 

[Luckmann]

I believe I have a solution to all of these problems. Considering that one of the main problems is that many buffs in this game feels useless due to the horridly short duration. A 15 second duration buff is over before you have had time to do anything at all really. So how to address "no out of combat buffing" + "Extremely short duration spells"?

 

Simple. 

 

Add a talent to gain the sequencer ability from DnD. 

 

Example: I put Iron skin, Mirror image and improved accuracy buff into a sequencer. When I click this button, all these three buffs fire off at once. 

 

Tada! No buffing out of combat AND spell buffs being bad due to low duration + cast times, all solved in one.

That's not.. solved at all. What are you one about? It would lead to the exact issues everyone is trying to avoid. Buffs having a short duration isn't a problem at all. It is, in fact, a necessity for out-of-combat buffin to even be feasible.