No buffing outside of combat, why?

[Raz415]

Well, seeing how the game is now, it really makes sense to not have pre-buffing. It would be quite broken otherwise, considering enemies would have to be tougher all around and we only have a few spell casts per rest as it is.

 

Still, I would have loved to play a Battlemage and it's basically impossible with the current system. Not only that you can't prebuff, all buffs end after combat. Oh well. I guess they balanced it however they could, but overall I'm not happy with how the casters work. Dragon Age Origins had a much nicer casting system imo, with the defensive buffs being modal and instant in combat (at a quite high cost), which allowed for A LOT more build diversity. 

[Elerond]

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

 

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

 

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by Elerond

[endolex]

Well, seeing how the game is now, it really makes sense to not have pre-buffing. It would be quite broken otherwise, considering enemies would have to be tougher all around and we only have a few spell casts per rest as it is.

 

Nope. And it has been explained in this thread quite a lot why this is nonsense. Low buff durations, wasting spell slots for encounters that don't need buffs, making ubiquitous buffing quite costly, etc. etc.

[endolex]

 

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you.

There are a zillion easy ways of making encounters harder at hardest difficulty that do NOT involve taking choice away from players by labeling spells as 'combat only'. When I want 'combat only spells', I play Diablo and the like, not a game that claims to be a successor to IE games.

[Raz415]

How are buff durations low? Most of them are still going by the time enemies are dead, even on PotD. I use Minor Blights, Deletrious Alacrity and Infuse Vitality, the shortest duration buff is Alacrity which lasts 42s... I think I only had to rebuff it once.

[endolex]

How are buff durations low? Most of them are still going by the time enemies are dead, even on PotD. I use Minor Blights, Deletrious Alacrity and Infuse Vitality, the shortest duration buff is Alacrity which lasts 42s... I think I only had to rebuff it once.

Low = good for one (1) encounter, especially since all buffs fade after combat ends. And spell slots are limited. So if you buff yourself up as much as you can before every fight, your priest will run dry pretty fast.

[Elerond]

 

 

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you.

There are a zillion easy ways of making encounters harder at hardest difficulty that do NOT involve taking choice away from players by labeling spells as 'combat only'. When I want 'combat only spells', I play Diablo and the like, not a game that claims to be a successor to IE games.

 

 

You probably didn't understood what I said in my post. So I would recommend reading it again couple times.

[endolex]

 

 

 

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you.

There are a zillion easy ways of making encounters harder at hardest difficulty that do NOT involve taking choice away from players by labeling spells as 'combat only'. When I want 'combat only spells', I play Diablo and the like, not a game that claims to be a successor to IE games.

 

 

You probably didn't understood what I said in my post. So I would recommend reading it again couple times.

 

 

I made a reply to your argument that many find the game already too easy at hardest difficulty level. Your "only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself" is a statement of the current situation, which does not make suddenly untrue the fact that there are several ways of inreasing difficulty exists, and being able to cast all spells always should put no limit on difficulty design *in general*. So I'm not arguing that you're wrong and the game is not too easy for many, I'm saying there are several ways to remedy this, even if casting of all spells all the time is enabled.

[Blucher]

 

A Priest, a Chanter and a Paladin in your group will massively increase your effectiveness. Even just one will provide substantial group bonuses. This feels very different from IE-era stuff to me. (That's a good thing.) Buffs may be far shorter and you can't pre-buff, but those buffs are REALLY useful during actual combat.

Say what?

 

Are we playing different games? We must be. There is not a SINGLE buff in PoE that bestows anything more than a minor adjustment to a party's stats. This is Josh Sawyer's baby, lest we've forgotten. Sawyer is a disciple of the power-via-10,000-baby-steps school of game design. There are no hard counters in this game. None. Instead, the system in place is designed to allow for infinite bonus stacking. And good players can eventually stack enough minor bonuses upon themselves to make a noticeable difference. I see the appeal of such a design, but I see it for what it IS. It's the spreadsheet nerd's Ideal. But Lets not pretend that any individual buff is REALLY powerful in capital letters.

 

...Or that it even comes close to the IE games in terms of being game changing.

 

-In BG1, your 5th level Mage can cast Haste, which doubles the number of attacks everyone in your party (including your summons) get per round....for an extended period of time. While in PoE, your 5th level Wizard's Haste spell (deleterious alacrity of motion) lasts about 15 seconds and simply reduces the action recovery time by a couple of seconds.... OF ONE PERSON.

 

-In the IE games, your Cleric can cast Chaotic Commands, which makes its recipient IMMUNE to all mind effecting spells, like domination, fear charm, confusion, stun, paralysis etc...for minutes at a time. While in PoE your priest can.... not? There is no all-encompassing mind protection spell in PoE. Instead, once your priest reaches about 11th friggin level, he gets access to a spell that reduces the duration of charm and domination effects by a couple of seconds and gives you a +something bonus to save against such spells.

 

-In the IE games, Your mage can cast a single spell that makes him IMMUNE to the first 5 physical attacks that hit him. In PoE your Wizard can, at best, cast a spell that gives him a deflection bonus that expires the first time someone scores a hit on him.

 

-in the IE games, you've got Mass invisibility. A spell that makes everyone in your party totally invisible. Totally undetectable. In PoE, there's no such buff. Not even partially.

 

-In the IE games, there's a 1st level cleric spell that makes your entire party (and your summons) IMMUNE to fear, for an extended period of time. In PoE, I think there might 5th level priest spell that bestows a moderate bonus to your saves against fear... to everyone in a 2 meter radius.

 

 

I really like this post.  PoE is a really nice game so far, but THAT (above) is a cause of why it's also kind of boring (to me, at least).

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you.

There are a zillion easy ways of making encounters harder at hardest difficulty that do NOT involve taking choice away from players by labeling spells as 'combat only'. When I want 'combat only spells', I play Diablo and the like, not a game that claims to be a successor to IE games.

 

 

You probably didn't understood what I said in my post. So I would recommend reading it again couple times.

 

 

I made a reply to your argument that many find the game already too easy at hardest difficulty level. Your "only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself" is a statement of the current situation, which does not make suddenly untrue the fact that there are several ways of inreasing difficulty exists, and being able to cast all spells always should put no limit on difficulty design *in general*. So I'm not arguing that you're wrong and the game is not too easy for many, I'm saying there are several ways to remedy this, even if casting of all spells all the time is enabled.

 

 

I made just before you comment that I quoted first post about issues that Obsidian would need to address to make sure that pre-buffing don't cause issues in the game

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/75811-no-buffing-outside-of-combat-why/page-16?do=findComment&comment=1664853

 

As you can see I didn't any point say that pre-buffing can't be done or that blocking it prevents adding difficulty in the game, but that those are issues that need addressing if such feature is added in the game. But you post seemed to me implicating that difficulty issue is solved just by rising difficulty level from settings which I commented that some already find hardest difficulty in the game too easy and there aren't currently any other way for players to make game harder than by gimping themselves.

 

My point was only address your claim that players can make game harder for themselves by changing the settings, by pointing out that there are those whom that is not possibility currently and Obsidian needs to take that account when they make feature changes in the game.

[endolex]

 

 

 

 

 

'Being able to cast all spells I have whenever the hell I want to would make the game too easy':

Use the difficulty slider. Only when easy is too hard for many, or when Path of the Damned / Trial of Iron with all QoL options turned off is still too easy for most, we have a problem.

Otherwise: use the difficulty slider. Change some options. They are there for a reason.

 

If you haven't seen people argue that Path of the Damned is too easy, which is hardest difficulty currently in the game.  And only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself like trying to soloing the game, not using foods, not resting, etc.

 

And this is already before any changes in game balance that probably make encounters even easier. So it is not issue that developers can/want ignore even if it don't matter to you.

There are a zillion easy ways of making encounters harder at hardest difficulty that do NOT involve taking choice away from players by labeling spells as 'combat only'. When I want 'combat only spells', I play Diablo and the like, not a game that claims to be a successor to IE games.

 

 

You probably didn't understood what I said in my post. So I would recommend reading it again couple times.

 

 

I made a reply to your argument that many find the game already too easy at hardest difficulty level. Your "only ways to make game even harder is to gimp yourself" is a statement of the current situation, which does not make suddenly untrue the fact that there are several ways of inreasing difficulty exists, and being able to cast all spells always should put no limit on difficulty design *in general*. So I'm not arguing that you're wrong and the game is not too easy for many, I'm saying there are several ways to remedy this, even if casting of all spells all the time is enabled.

 

 

I made just before you comment that I quoted first post about issues that Obsidian would need to address to make sure that pre-buffing don't cause issues in the game

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/75811-no-buffing-outside-of-combat-why/page-16?do=findComment&comment=1664853

 

As you can see I didn't any point say that pre-buffing can't be done or that blocking it prevents adding difficulty in the game, but that those are issues that need addressing if such feature is added in the game. But you post seemed to me implicating that difficulty issue is solved just by rising difficulty level from settings which I commented that some already find hardest difficulty in the game too easy and there aren't currently any other way for players to make game harder than by gimping themselves.

 

My point was only address your claim that players can make game harder for themselves by changing the settings, by pointing out that there are those whom that is not possibility currently and Obsidian needs to take that account when they make feature changes in the game.

 

 

Yep, and to that post I also added that "if either easy is too hard or hardest is too easy, we have a problem" - so you say we have a problem because of the things you said about PotD, and I see no reason to disagree.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Remember BG2 all enemy casters were prebuffed. They were sitting there waiting for you with all of their defensive and buff spells up. Even say protection from normal and magical weapons. And if they didn't they would cast time stop and boom either buff themselves or wreck your stuff.

 

You had to user your casters to knock those buffs out so you could destroy the caster. Becasue typically they were so buffed up they couldn't be attacked with any weapons. Now IWD1 just didn't have any enemy casters so you didn't have to bother with dozens of spells that only existed to knock out a casters buffs.

 

And the Buffs in BG2 and IWD1 would basically last the entire level in a dungeon sometimes every level. They were for game hours. What was Iron skin 12 game hours or something? I think the emotion spells were 1-3 hours.  The Priest spells Entropy and Draw Upon Holy Might would only last the battle. But mostly all other spells were crazy long lasting. Potions lasted hours as well.

 

So if the Party could prebuff then anyone who is an emeny and already red circled should be buffed waiting for you. And all bosses, mini bosses would be pre buffed as well.

 

i would love prebuffs. But PoE isn't designed for it. All duration times would have to change. Int could raise duration then, can you imagine a 50% duration boost on a buff lasting 2 hours. And there are no opposing spells to cancel out each others buffs. Except maybe for fear.

 

If you are going to go PreBuff in a game paying homage to not only the IE games but DnD then it better be a buff/debuff chess match like BG2 was if its not going to be like that then don't bother.

 

Save it for PoE 2.

[Luckmann]

[...] can you imagine a 50% duration boost on a buff lasting 2 hours. [...]

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

[endolex]

Remember BG2 all enemy casters were prebuffed. They were sitting there waiting for you with all of their defensive and buff spells up. Even say protection from normal and magical weapons. And if they didn't they would cast time stop and boom either buff themselves or wreck your stuff.

 

You had to user your casters to knock those buffs out so you could destroy the caster. Becasue typically they were so buffed up they couldn't be attacked with any weapons. Now IWD1 just didn't have any enemy casters so you didn't have to bother with dozens of spells that only existed to knock out a casters buffs.

 

And the Buffs in BG2 and IWD1 would basically last the entire level in a dungeon sometimes every level. They were for game hours. What was Iron skin 12 game hours or something? I think the emotion spells were 1-3 hours. The Priest spells Entropy and Draw Upon Holy Might would only last the battle. But mostly all other spells were crazy long lasting. Potions lasted hours as well.

 

So if the Party could prebuff then anyone who is an emeny and already red circled should be buffed waiting for you. And all bosses, mini bosses would be pre buffed as well.

 

i would love prebuffs. But PoE isn't designed for it. All duration times would have to change. Int could raise duration then, can you imagine a 50% duration boost on a buff lasting 2 hours. And there are no opposing spells to cancel out each others buffs. Except maybe for fear.

 

If you are going to go PreBuff in a game paying homage to not only the IE games but DnD then it better be a buff/debuff chess match like BG2 was if its not going to be like that then don't bother.

U

Save it for PoE 2.

In PoE, all buffs fade after combat ends, and even if this were to change (because otherwise buffs would probably fade immediately when cast out of combat), inside combat their duration is measured in seconds, not hours. The whole comparison to BG2 is therefore irrelevant.

This also applies to the assumption that enemies would have to be pre-buffed as well. Buff durations in PoE are just too short for this to make any sense.

Edited April 18, 2015 by endolex

[Luckmann]

 

Remember BG2 all enemy casters were prebuffed. They were sitting there waiting for you with all of their defensive and buff spells up. Even say protection from normal and magical weapons. And if they didn't they would cast time stop and boom either buff themselves or wreck your stuff.

 

You had to user your casters to knock those buffs out so you could destroy the caster. Becasue typically they were so buffed up they couldn't be attacked with any weapons. Now IWD1 just didn't have any enemy casters so you didn't have to bother with dozens of spells that only existed to knock out a casters buffs.

 

And the Buffs in BG2 and IWD1 would basically last the entire level in a dungeon sometimes every level. They were for game hours. What was Iron skin 12 game hours or something? I think the emotion spells were 1-3 hours. The Priest spells Entropy and Draw Upon Holy Might would only last the battle. But mostly all other spells were crazy long lasting. Potions lasted hours as well.

 

So if the Party could prebuff then anyone who is an emeny and already red circled should be buffed waiting for you. And all bosses, mini bosses would be pre buffed as well.

 

i would love prebuffs. But PoE isn't designed for it. All duration times would have to change. Int could raise duration then, can you imagine a 50% duration boost on a buff lasting 2 hours. And there are no opposing spells to cancel out each others buffs. Except maybe for fear.

 

If you are going to go PreBuff in a game paying homage to not only the IE games but DnD then it better be a buff/debuff chess match like BG2 was if its not going to be like that then don't bother.

U

Save it for PoE 2.

In PoE, all buffs fade after combat ends, and even if this were to change (because otherwise buffs would probably fade immediately when cast out of combat), inside combat their duration is measured in seconds, not hours. The whole comparison to BG2 is therefore irrelevant.

This also applies to the assumption that enemies would have to be pre-buffed as well. Buff durations in PoE are just too short for this to make any sense.

 

 

But, but, but muh idiot comparisons and false dichotummy?!