Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes

[Jansen]

I just skimmed through the last pages, so there's a serious discussion going on about a limerick? Really? Don't you have better to do (e.g. enjoying the game, searching Easter eggs, ...)?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Jansen

[Greenwood]

 

Honestly though, people that demand refunds belong to a pretty extreme minority, but there's still a good point in it.

 

If the point is 'we don't care how many thousands of man-hours you poured into this game or how much people seem to love the work you've done otherwise, if you alter a piece of irrelevant flavor text for reasons perceived to be catering to the Tumblr crowd your company has jumped the shark and should give us all our money back', then yes, a striking point. I can't imagine how people working at Obsidian couldn't take that approach seriously. 

 

Why is it so hard for people to find middle ground here? Like, 'Hey, Obsidian, this was a sh*tty move, we love ya and PoE is otherwise great but please don't do it again' rather than 'you've ruined Pillars of Eternity forever!'

 

It's as if the hyper-sensitivity and crazed over-reaction of the SJW community is contagious. 

 

Nah dude, its nothing like that, Obsidian jumped the shark but what is done is done. I'll just try to get my money back and move on with life, twas a great experience thou, but somehow now, the game feels like the game is garroted (dont even know if this word exist in your language, sorry) for me.

[Valmy]

Man all this just makes me sick. I stopped looking at twitter at all seven months ago because of all this hate full outrage garbage and it saddens me to see it crop up again.

 

And all over some obscure backer content 99.999999% of people who play the game will not even see. Not even really part of the game content. I wish I could say I am surprised.

[Efrath]

 

 

I've read through most of the thread trying to understand why some people seem to be upset that it was changed and I am at a loss. The original poem dehumanized trans-women.

 

That's the point. It wasn't. There weren't any trans women mentioned or alluded to in the epitaph, and the person assumed to be was not "dehumanized". I'm honestly puzzled by this.

 

I would be much more sympathetic to the removal of the poem if it weren't over an obvious misunderstanding (or deliberate misreading) of it.

 

You are blatantly wrong. Sleeping with a woman, and later finding out that person is "actually a man" has been a common trope for the last 20 years that degrades trans-women (see Ace Ventura, Always Sunny, Jerry Springer, etc. I really don't think this is up for debate).

 

For you to think that this was an obvious misunderstanding, or some sort of internet conspiracy is insane. Please just stop. 

 

It's a joke, one not really meant to paint anyone in a direct bad light, it's only degrading if you perceive it that way. If anything, it mocks the sexual insecurity of men or at the very least jokes about the awkward situation that, to this very day, sometimes happens between men and trans people.

 

I can however safely say that if you and others keep reacting to harmless jokes like this, you will ultimately just create further gaps between people, because what you're essentially asking for is special treatment. Trans people are not special, they are humans, capable of humour and being joked about just like any other group of people. Jokes are not a problem, stereotypes are not a problem.

 

You know what's a problem? People that seriously go "HAH, THIS IS JUST HOW x PEOPLE ALL ACT, THEY'RE DUMB AND SILLY", which honestly would be like that regardless if the joke or stereotype existed or not because their views and opinions were not created trough some silly joke but rather trough ignorance. Frown upon the people that do this, instead of the jokes and stereotypes, because any sane person know the difference between jokes/stereotypes and real life, just like with TV, books and games. You can tell me thousand of offensive jokes and it would change my mind about black people or any other group of people.

 

I would however laugh at most jokes probably because I love offensive jokes and think they are good for breaking barriers and also for pointing out just how stupid some stereotypes are.

 

I think this song sums up my thoughts on this.

 

[Azradun]

I also think it's worth pointing out that if this had happened in an office setting, the author of the limerick would be on his way to mandatory sensitivity training at best, given his reaction to the incident.  In short, it doesn't matter what you think about this and it has nothing to do with free speech.

 

 

Thank goodness I don't live in such a totalitarian country as you do. "Mandatory sensitivity training" for a joke? This reminds me of the wost communist times in Poland... If this is the depth of American PC craziness, you can keep it to yourself.

 

Edit: "at best" is genuinely scary. And what is the worst? Being fired immediately? Put in jail? Shot in the back of the head? Do you even realize how totalitarian your words sound? You don't advocate for the LGTB people this way - just the opposite in fact. This sounds crazier and less tolerant than the Catholic Church, and that's something to say in Poland where I come from.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Azradun

[Luj1]

 

what is done is done.

 

 

True. The freaks on twitter got what they wanted. Obsidan have had 3 days of PR hell but w/e. Regardless, now we have an even better joke in the game that makes fun of these SWJ loonies lol And there's a mod on nexus that restores the original memorial text, If you'd desire it.

[Valmy]

 

I also think it's worth pointing out that if this had happened in an office setting, the author of the limerick would be on his way to mandatory sensitivity training at best, given his reaction to the incident.  In short, it doesn't matter what you think about this and it has nothing to do with free speech.

 

 

Thank goodness I don't live in such a totalitarian country as you do. "Mandatory sensitivity training" for a joke? This reminds me of the wost communist times in Poland... If this is the depth of American PC craziness, you can keep it to yourself.

 

 

As an American I can say you really only see this stuff on twitter and their ilk. And lots of those involved are not Americans. But it seems the mere presence of twitter makes us a Communist Dictatorship.

 

Lunacy.

[Azradun]

 

As an American I can say you really only see this stuff on twitter and their ilk. And lots of those involved are not Americans. But it seems the mere presence of twitter makes us a Communist Dictatorship.

 

Lunacy.

 

 

Hey, it wasn't me who wrote about "mandatory sensitivity training at best for a joke" (which does sound absolutely totalitarian). I was only in America once, in 2007, for a week, so I have to rely on what you people write.

 

By the way, did you know that America has the most incarcerated per 1000 people in the whole world, more than Russia, Iran and North Korea? Lunacy, yeah.

[complexmath]

 

I also think it's worth pointing out that if this had happened in an office setting, the author of the limerick would be on his way to mandatory sensitivity training at best, given his reaction to the incident.  In short, it doesn't matter what you think about this and it has nothing to do with free speech.

 

 

Thank goodness I don't live in such a totalitarian country as you do. "Mandatory sensitivity training" for a joke? This reminds me of the wost communist times in Poland... If this is the depth of American PC craziness, you can keep it to yourself.

 

Edit: "at best" is genuinely scary. And what is the worst? Being fired immediately? Put in jail? Shot in the back of the head? Do you even realize how totalitarian your words sound? You don't advocate for the LGTB people this way - just the opposite in fact. This sounds crazier and less tolerant than the Catholic Church, and that's something to say in Poland where I come from.

 

Yes, termination is a possible consequence of harassment.  It's important to note, however, that these laws exist for the victims.  If someone doesn't care about the off-color jokes, coworkers watching porn, groping, or whatever else might be going on, then no reporting occurs and no action is taken.  But they can be tremendously valuable in instances where people do feel victimized in the workplace.  And perhaps Poland is a more enlightened place than the US, but here, asking women about stories of workplace harassment would provide a basically endless supply of anecdotes that would leave you despairing for humanity.  Most of the time, only the most severe cases are ever reported, but there are countless more that people just bear because they don't want to deal with the trouble of complaining about.

 

Regarding my comment about sensitivity training, such things tend to occur when the alleged harasser responds in an unreasonable manner.  If they agree to simply stop doing whatever, then that's typically the end of it.  (note that I don't work in HR or have a legal background, so what I've said is just a result of exposure to the periodic training exercises regarding workplace harassment and the like in various businesses where I've worked)

Edited April 6, 2015 by complexmath

[Azradun]

 

but here, asking women about stories of workplace harassment would provide a basically endless supply of anecdotes that would leave you despairing for humanity.  Most of the time, only the most severe cases are ever reported, but there are countless more that people just bear because they don't want to deal with the trouble of complaining about.

 

 

Because women *never* do any kind of harassment at work. My mother was bullied for years in her workplace, where there are only women. I guess she was mobbed by dwarves, fairies or invisible male ghosts? And do you think men report bullying done to them? Nope, they don't - mostly because they're met with laughter - like my female collegue did to me once. Literally laughed in my face (I guess depression is a laughing matter!). No wonder men die by suicide almost 5 times as often as women.

 

But I guess the powerful lawyer lobby wouldn't get so much $$$ without such a political climate. Offense generates income, common sense doesn't.

 

 

Edit: I've even seen some people lately whining about "white males" on some Polish forums. When 99.999% Polish are white and 50% are male. Yes, this *did* left me despairing for humanity... senseless copying of the PC stuff without even thinking.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Azradun

[Elayne]

 

 

 

I've read through most of the thread trying to understand why some people seem to be upset that it was changed and I am at a loss. The original poem dehumanized trans-women.

 

That's the point. It wasn't. There weren't any trans women mentioned or alluded to in the epitaph, and the person assumed to be was not "dehumanized". I'm honestly puzzled by this.

 

I would be much more sympathetic to the removal of the poem if it weren't over an obvious misunderstanding (or deliberate misreading) of it.

 

You are blatantly wrong. Sleeping with a woman, and later finding out that person is "actually a man" has been a common trope for the last 20 years that degrades trans-women (see Ace Ventura, Always Sunny, Jerry Springer, etc. I really don't think this is up for debate).

 

For you to think that this was an obvious misunderstanding, or some sort of internet conspiracy is insane. Please just stop. 

 

It's a joke, one not really meant to paint anyone in a direct bad light, it's only degrading if you perceive it that way. If anything, it mocks the sexual insecurity of men or at the very least jokes about the awkward situation that, to this very day, sometimes happens between men and trans people.

 

I can however safely say that if you and others keep reacting to harmless jokes like this, you will ultimately just create further gaps between people, because what you're essentially asking for is special treatment. Trans people are not special, they are humans, capable of humour and being joked about just like any other group of people. Jokes are not a problem, stereotypes are not a problem.

 

You know what's a problem? People that seriously go "HAH, THIS IS JUST HOW x PEOPLE ALL ACT, THEY'RE DUMB AND SILLY", which honestly would be like that regardless if the joke or stereotype existed or not because their views and opinions were not created trough some silly joke but rather trough ignorance. Frown upon the people that do this, instead of the jokes and stereotypes, because any sane person know the difference between jokes/stereotypes and real life, just like with TV, books and games. You can tell me thousand of offensive jokes and it would change my mind about black people or any other group of people.

 

I would however laugh at most jokes probably because I love offensive jokes and think they are good for breaking barriers and also for pointing out just how stupid some stereotypes are.

 

I think this song sums up my thoughts on this.

 

 

Wow, there's a lot there so I will try to be brief.  

 

1. Saying it pokes fun at an "awkward situation that occurs between men and trans-women" is the root of the problem. There is no awkward situation, only trans-misogyny.

-"A guy sleeps with a woman and later when he found out she was a Sagittarius, he threw up." 

-"A guy sleeps with a woman and later when he found out she was trans, he threw up." 

 

Both are crazy, but one has validity in our society. See the problem? 

 

2. Racist jokes and stereotypes are certainly not harmless. This has been acknowledged by our society (there is a reason black-face isn't a thing anymore).  Saying offensive jokes and stereotypes "are good for breaking barriers" is crazy. 

 

 

[Azradun]

-"A guy sleeps with a woman and later when he found out she was trans, he threw up."

 

And what if the joke described a date rape? A straight guy drinks a lot, a trans person (who can also be a *bad* person, even a rapist, being trans doesn't make you automatically good) takes advantage of him, the straight guy wakes up, throws up and throws himself from a bridge?

 

Do we know what exactly happened? Or are we making a lot of baseless assumptions?

[Elayne]

 

-"A guy sleeps with a woman and later when he found out she was trans, he threw up."

 

And what if the joke described a date rape? A straight guy drinks a lot, a trans person (who can also be a *bad* person, even a rapist, being trans doesn't make you automatically good) takes advantage of him, the straight guy wakes up, throws up and throws himself from a bridge?

 

Do we know what exactly happened? Or are we making a lot of baseless assumptions?

 

*sigh*

 

So what you are saying is that if a guy sleeps with a woman, and later that guy finds out she is trans and he is upset by this, that woman is a rapist?

 

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Elayne

[Azradun]

*sigh*

So what you are saying is that if a guy sleeps with a woman, and later that guy finds out she is trans and he is upset by this, that woman is a rapist?

 

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

 

 

If that trans woman took advantage of a straight man who was too drunk to consent, then yes. She was a rapist. Just as I wrote earlier.

 

How do you know what exactly happened just from 4 verses? Was the straight man too intoxicated to give consent or not? Was the trans woman the active party? Did she stop when he said no or not? Did he said no or not? Please answer those questions exactly. Until then, we shall leave the matter of who is the bigot here unresolved, shall we?

[LordCrash]

 

 

what is done is done.

 

 

True. The freaks on twitter got what they wanted. Obsidan have had 3 days of PR hell but w/e. Regardless, now we have an even better joke in the game that makes fun of these SWJ loonies lol And there's a mod on nexus that restores the original memorial text, If you'd desire it.

 

 

Hahaha, in which crazy world do you live? PR hell?!?! Seriously? I'd say the big majority of Obsidian don't even know or at least care what some self-righteous drama queens on twitter or other social media think or have to say about this. The huge majority of their customers don't give a **** about this AT ALL. 

 

It's just a tiny made up drama about something that is so small and unimportant that it's not even worth to talk about it at all if you ask me. And don't mistake your own small world in social media for the general public perception of certain things. If you don't read this thread or if you don't already follow certain discussions and hashtags and stuff on social media you won't even notice that there is any trouble or whatever at all.

 

Seriously, it's time to end that hilarious discussion. The trolls got their attention. The sole purpose of another made up drama on social media was reached.

[Luj1]

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

 

 

Obsidian didn't change the poem. Backer wanted to change it to spare Obsidian of this PR nonsense. EDIT: A wise decision worthy of serious respect.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Luj1

[Luj1]

 

PR hell?!?! Seriously?

 

 

 

You have no clue. Send a PM to Firedorn and ask him. In this age of liberalism and so-called political correctness it aint no joke for big companies, unfortunately. Especially in the west.

[McFeeb]

 

*sigh*

 

So what you are saying is that if a guy sleeps with a woman, and later that guy finds out she is trans and he is upset by this, that woman is a rapist?

 

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

 

 

 

 

 

By the socjus crowd's own definitions it would be rape by deception.

 

But since the "victim" was a male, who obviously can't be a victim due to his privilege and status as an oppressor, the true victim in the situation turns out to be the person whose feelings were hurt, who clearly did no wrong.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Firedorn says the joke didn't have anything to do with anyone on the LGBTIAQ+ spectrum, but it seems some here are determined to read whatever they want into to poem regardless of what the author of it has said. I have no reason to doubt his word on that front, as I myself took it as a joke about a fool killing himself after he drunkenly sleeps with a man. If you doubt me, here is his response: http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer

 

At any rate, Obsidian contacted Firedorn and now we have a better poem poking at the offended for turning a joke that had **** all to do with them into a form of bigotry directed at them. As Firedorn himself is fine with the situation, Obsidian has earned my respect for handling this cluster**** in a way where the backer was satisfied and was not thrown under the bus.

[Elayne]

 

*sigh*

So what you are saying is that if a guy sleeps with a woman, and later that guy finds out she is trans and he is upset by this, that woman is a rapist?

 

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

 

 

If that trans woman took advantage of a straight man who was too drunk to consent, then yes. She was a rapist. Just as I wrote earlier.

 

How do you know what exactly happened just from 4 verses? Was the straight man too intoxicated to give consent or not? Was the trans woman the active party? Did she stop when he said no or not? Did he said no or not? Please answer those questions exactly. Until then, we shall leave the matter of who is the bigot here unresolved, shall we?

 

You are convoluting the issue by introducing drugs. No one said anything about drugs. Please stop deflecting and examine what is happening.

 

 

[Elayne]

 

 

*sigh*

 

So what you are saying is that if a guy sleeps with a woman, and later that guy finds out she is trans and he is upset by this, that woman is a rapist?

 

^This is why Obsidian changed the poem. They do not want to re-enforce that type of bigoted thinking. 

 

 

 

 

 

By the socjus crowd's own definitions it would be rape by deception.

 

But since the "victim" was a male, who obviously can't be a victim due to his privilege and status as an oppressor, the true victim in the situation turns out to be the person whose feelings were hurt, who clearly did no wrong.

 

Sorry, try again, it is not rape. You are demonstrating the bigotry that caused Obsidian to change this in the first place.

 

Also, of course males can be victims. I am unsure what that has to do with anything.

 

[McFeeb]

Sorry, try again, it is not rape. You are demonstrating the bigotry that caused Obsidian to change this in the first place.

 

Also, of course males can be victims. I am unsure what that has to do with anything.

 

 

 

 

Hypocrisy triggers me.

 

Please try to be more sensitive in the future.

[LordCrash]

 

 

PR hell?!?! Seriously?

 

 

 

You have no clue. Send a PM to Firedorn and ask him. In this age of liberalism and so-called political correctness it aint no joke for big companies, unfortunately. Especially in the west.

 

 

Firedorn (whoever that is) =/= Osidian

 

1000 twitter trolls =/= big PR hell

 

 

So who doesn't have a clue here...

 

 

And I really ask some of you to actually PLAY the game you talk about so much. There isa lot of stuff in this game (the actual game, not the completely unimportant and who-the-****-cares backer content) that is far more likely to offend people if you want to be offended without critical reflection.

Edited April 6, 2015 by LordCrash

[Azradun]

You are convoluting the issue by introducing drugs. No one said anything about drugs. Please stop deflecting and examine what is happening.

 

 

You are simplifying the issue to conform to your view of the situation, to your singular interpretation.

 

What drugs? Most sexual activity now and then was done under influence of alcohol. I say this was under influence of alcohol, now you examine what is happening (sic) and prove to me it didn't happen exactly the way I described. Not only you get to project things or make baseless assumptions.

 

"The last woman he bedded, turned out a man" - where does it says they weren't drinking alcohol in a tavern?

 

Edit: my feelings tell me it happened exactly as I described, your turn.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Azradun

[Darren Monahan]

A