So, the plot.

[WebShaman]

You have the gods by the balls - you can demand anything as YOU are the only one who can stop/hinder Thaos.

 

Tired of fanbois responses defending a complete farce of an artificial construct designed to leave the Player like a complete idiot - and you all sucks it up and cry for more!

 

Fine if you like that sort of abuse (or if it makes at least sense ingame, which it doesn't).

 

I certainly will NOT be supporting more of this pure and utter crap with my money!

[Holofaust]

You have the gods by the balls - you can demand anything as YOU are the only one who can stop/hinder Thaos.

 

Tired of fanbois responses defending a complete farce of an artificial construct designed to leave the Player like a complete idiot - and you all sucks it up and cry for more!

 

Fine if you like that sort of abuse (or if it makes at least sense ingame, which it doesn't).

 

I certainly will NOT be supporting more of this pure and utter crap with my money!

Can we look forward to you no longer posting on these forums as well?

[Holofaust]

 

So, is there nothing special that connects the PC to Thaos (contrary to what the story up to the end leads you to believe), or did I miss it? After Iowara dropped a bombshell about the gods being artificial pretty much in the first sentence, and then added there were deeper secrets that only Thaos knew, I was genuinely worried that it was going to be an "I'm your father" thing. Thank god(s) it didn't come to that, but he also added almost nothing to what she said, so it was a bit anticlimactic.

 

Also, does this made-up religion completely sidestep the subject of who created the world and its inhabitants, or did I also miss it? It's not uncommon for polytheistic religions to be rather sketchy about it, but usually there's at least come cursory explanation.

 

There is most definitely a connection between your character and Thaos!  In the past you betrayed a woman who you cared about deeply on Thaos' orders because she claimed the gods did not exist.  If she was right, you're actions had meaning, were horrible!  You tried to ask Thaos this question but were refused an answer, and this haunted you till you died.  Meeting Thaos in the context of the Biawac reignited this question in your soul, which is why you ultimately needed to find him and ask it to him, in order to get some closure.  

 

PoE I think is like Torment, in that it is based around a fundamental question, which in Torment's cased was "What can the change the nature of a man?"  In PoE this question is left unstated, but is probably something like, "if the meanings we ascribe to our lives turn out to be false, what can we do about it?"  The problem I think is that unlike Torment, PoE tries to be subtle, and I'm not sure subtlety works in this case.  

 

Agreed. I felt like PoE was a midpoint between BG and PS:T with neither greater narratives being fully developed or realized. I get what Obsidian was going for and can appreciate it. I just don't think they hit the nail on the head like they did with PS:T and BG. My problem is that the game is just to nihilistic. Everyone just feels lost and like they are just making it up as they go, which ultimately I think is the point of the narrative, but thats a painful point to make in a game this long if we aren't given any bright spots. It turns it into a slog through murky greyness.

[Karkarov]

And that is still yet another irksome thing about the game - no matter how hard you as a Player try to help the Companions, the Developers don't allow closure options, even though ingame you have access to such power and knowledge.

This isn't true.  That is what happened in your game, but that is not necessarily the only option.  In my game Eder moved to Dyrford and dedicated himself to helping others and getting a fresh start on his life.  He wanted to spread the values he grew up with and did it on his own terms.  Over time he became the mayor of Dyrford, expanded the town, and ultimately it became the new "Gilded Vale" and entered a period of real prosperity ceasing to be some wilderness town.

 

That's some pretty solid closure for Eder in my game, he moved on with his life and made his own way.

 

Too bad Durance turned into a rag wearing penniless lunatic searching for revenge against his favorite whore, which we all know he is never going to get.

[WebShaman]

It is bollocks is what it is! Souls also go through animals (see Sanaki's Quest)! So why isn't there a complete shortage of animals, insects, fish, etc in the region?

 

If the lack of souls is so great that human babies get born without souls, then animals would be born hollow all over the place!

 

But nothing of the kind...just another illogical problem with the game.

 

As for the Past - you have no choice in what happens, it is forced on you. Your (insert whatever you decided the woman was to you) informs you that the gods are false but you follow Thaos anyway.

 

So no need for a conflict here - you decided. You live (and die) with the consequences.

 

But nooo...you go crazy because of this due to being Awakened (which is how I end my game now). No more Thaos and stumbling around, I have what I wanted my little stronghold. One more crazy in this fantasy cesspool won't (and doesn't) make a difference.

 

At least it was nice to include this ending.

 

As for Eder - I never said that there was no end for the Companions! I said there is no closure for the questions they have and the answers they seek, even though you are in a position to obtain such, solely due to how the Devs want things to be.

 

That life goes on (well, for Durance not necessarily, but his soul, certainly) is obvious. Depending on what one chooses in various convos, one gets various outcomes. But none of them include full closure of the original questions.

Edited April 19, 2015 by WebShaman

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

So, is there nothing special that connects the PC to Thaos (contrary to what the story up to the end leads you to believe), or did I miss it? After Iowara dropped a bombshell about the gods being artificial pretty much in the first sentence, and then added there were deeper secrets that only Thaos knew, I was genuinely worried that it was going to be an "I'm your father" thing. Thank god(s) it didn't come to that, but he also added almost nothing to what she said, so it was a bit anticlimactic.

 

Also, does this made-up religion completely sidestep the subject of who created the world and its inhabitants, or did I also miss it? It's not uncommon for polytheistic religions to be rather sketchy about it, but usually there's at least come cursory explanation.

 

There is most definitely a connection between your character and Thaos!  In the past you betrayed a woman who you cared about deeply on Thaos' orders because she claimed the gods did not exist.  If she was right, you're actions had meaning, were horrible!  You tried to ask Thaos this question but were refused an answer, and this haunted you till you died.  Meeting Thaos in the context of the Biawac reignited this question in your soul, which is why you ultimately needed to find him and ask it to him, in order to get some closure.

I mean a connection like "soul tether", or being a possible successor, or something. I know that the PC infiltrated Iowara's group, but is it just because Thaos chose him to do that, since the PC was from the same town (I don't recall any other justification)? As for caring deeply about her, it's for the player to decide, actually. My PC never met her before and left the group because he disliked her

[Voss]

 

 

PoE I think is like Torment, in that it is based around a fundamental question, which in Torment's cased was "What can the change the nature of a man?"  In PoE this question is left unstated, but is probably something like, "if the meanings we ascribe to our lives turn out to be false, what can we do about it?"  The problem I think is that unlike Torment, PoE tries to be subtle, and I'm not sure subtlety works in this case.  

 

I think the problem is more that the player doesn't have any reason to have any emotional investment in those meanings.  Oh, dear, video game gods are fake.  The horrors.

 

On the other hand, even in within the setting, the gods are presented as fairly awful, just vehicles/excuses for bigotry, torture and genocide.  Finding out they are false should be a relief, and people can get on with their own lives, building better lives through science.  Like the supposed insomnia you're character has because of 'watcher issues,'  the story just isn't convincing in any regard about any conceivable meaning.  Mostly you just hunt down and murder a man because he mildly inconvenienced you at the beginning of the game.  Luckily, he was a jerk, so... it was ok to stab him in the face at the end.  And rip out his soul.  

 

 

As for NPC closure-  the characters I actually cared about (the well written ones- Eder, Sagani, Kana) turned out fine and did well. 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Voss

[Christliar]

 

 

 

PoE I think is like Torment, in that it is based around a fundamental question, which in Torment's cased was "What can the change the nature of a man?"  In PoE this question is left unstated, but is probably something like, "if the meanings we ascribe to our lives turn out to be false, what can we do about it?"  The problem I think is that unlike Torment, PoE tries to be subtle, and I'm not sure subtlety works in this case.  

 

I think the problem is more that the player doesn't have any reason to have any emotional investment in those meanings.  Oh, dear, video game gods are fake.  The horrors.

 

On the other hand, even in within the setting, the gods are presented as fairly awful, just vehicles/excuses for bigotry, torture and genocide.  Finding out they are false should be a relief, and people can get on with their own lives, building better lives through science.  Like the supposed insomnia you're character has because of 'watcher issues,'  the story just isn't convincing in any regard about any conceivable meaning.  Mostly you just hunt down and murder a man because he mildly inconvenienced you at the beginning of the game.  Luckily, he was a jerk, so... it was ok to stab him in the face at the end.  And rip out his soul.  

 

 

As for NPC closure-  the characters I actually cared about (the well written ones- Eder, Sagani, Kana) turned out fine and did well. 

 

 

Тhe PC having no reason to be in the story is just a drop in the bucket of problems with the main plot, as you well know. The plot fails on so many levels and everything is already said, so I don't know what more we can discuss. We can entertain some vaguely argumented hope that the sequel will do better since it's Obsidian, but that's it.

 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Christliar

[Yria]

PoE I think is like Torment, in that it is based around a fundamental question, which in Torment's cased was "What can the change the nature of a man?"  In PoE this question is left unstated, but is probably something like, "if the meanings we ascribe to our lives turn out to be false, what can we do about it?"  The problem I think is that unlike Torment, PoE tries to be subtle, and I'm not sure subtlety works in this case.

Not sure if I understand correctly what you meant by PoE's fundamental question, but the question that PC wants to ask Thaos is stated in game. And from what I've gathered during my two playtroughs, there are actually quite a few possible questions. It depends on the answer you give Thaos when he asks your past incarnate why they had decided to leave the order. For example,

my first character said that she witnessed some terrible things the heretics had done, and her final question was "Did you lie when you said that gods can end all the suffering?". My second char wanted to live the Inquisition because her family disapproved of her faith, and the question appeared to be "Did you lie that I was right to cast my family aside?!". So...

 

It isn't just one single question that haunts all the player characters, like in Planescape, it really depends on your dialogue choices. 

But if I was to state the main question of the game, the one that determines the plot, I'd probably go with Wael's What is an answer without a question? The game really left me with a feeling that quite often uncertainty is even better than learning the truth, because it makes you think and seek the answer. It is also heavily implied through some of the companion quests that sometimes we are never going to learn the answer, and we have to be able to deal with that and keep going. 

But that's just my take. I agree that PoE's main question, if there is any, was done very subtle. So subtle that there may be as many 'the question's as there are players. 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Yria

[Christliar]

 

 

What is an answer without a question?

An out-of-context statement and linguistical nonsense.

[Yria]

An out-of-context statement and linguistical nonsense.

Except if you played the game and read that book on Wael, you do know the context. By the way, one of possible answers you can give to Iovara states exactly that: the questions pose more meaning than their answers. It can be further elaborated by one of the companions (namely Hiravias) as well.

But as I already said, that's just what I saw in the plot. The main question of the game was left terribly vague. Or, rather, there is a whole bunch of questions, but they are all underdeveloped, so everyone sees what they want.

[Christliar]

 

An out-of-context statement and linguistical nonsense.

Except if you played the game and read that book on Wael, you do know the context. By the way, one of possible answers you can give to Iovara states exactly that: the questions pose more meaning than their answers. It can be further elaborated by one of the companions (namely Hiravias) as well.

But as I already said, that's just what I saw in the plot. The main question of the game was left terribly vague. Or, rather, there is a whole bunch of questions, but they are all underdeveloped, so everyone sees what they want.

 

If you know the context of an answer then you know the question. An answer is only an answer if it has a question to go with it. That's the entire point. Everything else is just random statements. I was literally answering the question "What is an answer without a question?".

Edited April 19, 2015 by Christliar

[Yria]

I was literally answering the question "What is an answer without a question?".

Sorry then, I misunderstood. But I think we both know this line isn't supposed to be read so literally. The meaning is that one should seek the answer to any question himself and not expect that it will be given to him, that the process of learning and thinking, the process of questioning something, is more important than the actual knowledge, blah-blah-blah. Funnily, as it is stated in that letter from one priest of Wael to another, those guys aren't etirely sure what the line means themselves... which kinda makes sence in the light of their doctrine.