Enemy AI disengages and splits up when the player kites/runs away

[Andre]

There's 2 issues with the current AI of enemies.

 

The first issue is that if you attack a pack of enemies and run, some of the enemies will split up. The core of the group might stay behind while stranglers might follow.

 

The second issue is if the enemy is slightly slower than the character aggroing them, they will disengage. When they disengage they start to walk back to their original position in slow speed. IF the player re-engages them at this moment, they will turn once again on the player and try to attack them. The engagement can either be an attack, or merely walking up to the enemy that is disengaging/going back to its original position.

 

As you can see this two things combined result in a easily abusable AI, I don't condone this of course but if it's in the game in its present state it's a valid tactic albeit a cheap one.

I purpose a simple solution, just make it so that the whole pack of enemies moves towards the character that pulled them. At the same time don't have them disengage. Kiting would still be a valid tactic, but the execution would be harder. Open space would be an asset, currently you need less than 1/4 of a screen to make kiting work.

 

It's also noteworthy to say that you can do this as a solo character, it might not work versus all enemies such as wolves/boars/lions because they are fast but it works versus the majority of creatures one encounters in the game. Once you add additional characters to this kiting "tactic" it gets even more abusable. Chanters can get free invocations up, while you run around and enemies don't engage properly. You can shoot with say 2 party members while one just runs back and forth near an enemy, etc. I'll provide a video later if needed to showcase this issue.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Andre

[Suhiir]

Can't say as I've tried kiting but it's become pretty obvious "engagement" has little to no effect on at least undead type NPCs.

Such MOBs regularly kite my characters in fact.

 

The NPC I've told a character to attack will run off (or teleport) and the character will give chase, being attacked by every other NPC they pass as they are engaged and repeatedly hit by disengagement attacks.  Lost more then one fight to this, you have to VERY carefully micromanage fights and never allow your characters to chase NPCs.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Suhiir

[Andre]

I should've clarified, I don't actually mean the ingame mechanic of engagement. But the act of attacking the enemy. I think what you've described is fine.

 

I'll make a video soon so you see what I mean.

[Andre]

Ok so here's the visual examples of the first issue I described in the OP. Which is, that you can seperate creatures from the group. It's easier to do if you have movement speed advantage obviously.

 

Here's what happens if you engage them normally. A total of 11 enemies(there's supposed to be 12 actually, but one guy got stuck behind or something).

 

And here's the video of me pulling and seperating the 3 drakes from the pack. Just wanted to illustrate the aggro issue with a video,  the point is it makes the challenge very trivial. Kill the 3 drakes, then proceed to pull again/finish them off.

 

I'll post the video of enemies continously going back and forth between their original position and the attacking player later. It's a bit harder to do as it doesn't work on every creature due to movement speed differences.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Andre

[Bazy]

Confirmed. Have been abusing this

[Annubis]

The "enemies continuously going back and forth" is easy to replicate with a troll.

Just kite it a bit then it will go back to it's spot. Go back to you want you attack it. Head back to its spot when you stop.

 

I mean, in a sense, you could do the same thing even with him walking to you the whole time because he's pretty slow.

It's just even easier right now because you don't have to keep kiting.

[Andre]

Yes, you could still kite trolls well but at least it wouldn't look stupid. They're meant to be slow judging by their lore. Like it takes a really long time to kill one with arrows on PotD so you'd still have to cover a lot of area which might be an issue in some cases if enemy AI worked correctly.

 

Here's an example of the second issue.  At 0.10 the Skuldr Whelph disengages and stops chasing, I think enemies do this because they "realize" the player has more movement speed. At 0.13 the Skuldr Whelp actually gets out of combat completely, I think enemies even heal in some cases if you leave them alone. He gets out of combat completely again at 0.20.

 

As you can see from the video this behaviour can easily be abused. If you have a few characters shooting the enemy and one character running back and forth like this it gets silly.

 

Would be glad if this got looked into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JWS6Elwsb4

Edited April 2, 2015 by Andre

[DrSapca]

Confirming same thing. Can kite/pull everything except fast mobs (like wolves, they don't seem to disengage maybe cause they are faster than player).

 

At some point enemies (if they are not actively attacked) decide they will stroll slowly back to their camp. And that just earns them 6 arrows into back.

[bobthe]

It is completely within your ability to simply not "abuse" kiting. I put abuse in quotes because not everyone considers it abuse. If it's an intended mechanic then it is definitively not abuse. Regardless, you can simply not kite things and play how you like. It's not multiplayer so why do you care if other people do?

[Andre]

Your argument has some merit, but watch my videos. Do you honestly think the current behaviour of enemies is fine? In the first video example the xaurip let the drakes chase the chanter alone, even logically that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't the whole group be alerted by the attacking character?

 

I also did not state anywhere my opinion on caring how people play the game, I'm merely saying that the current engine implementation of AI makes no sense to me. If you're a big bad troll and you see a party of adventurers attacking you, you go after them and kill em. You don't randomly turn around and go back to your resting place.

 

To address your multiplayer comparison, I personally don't care how players play a SP game. But imagine the achievement that is beating the game Triple Crown Solo, path of the damned+expert+trial of iron. People who will do that, will do it by abusing these bugs.

 

There will always be exploits in RPGs, but let it be in the form of skills/spells/abilities/items/etc. Not engine limitations/clunkiness.

[TrueMenace]

Short 2 minute video showcasing the bug:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-i4o0GT8FI

Edited April 2, 2015 by TrueMenace

[ibnobody]

The act of you reporting this as a "bug" is tantamount to telling someone how they should play a single player game. 

 

I choose to use this exploit. I do not have to use it, and it's not breaking the game like the many true bugs. I enjoy using the export. It is more fun, to me, than to try and one-shot the whole enemy party. It takes some skill to pull off well, and it also plays to the save-reload mechanic that I love to exploit.

 

If it gets patched, I'll have you to blame for having my single-player experience hurt. So that we can be on the same page, let me know what other combat methods you enjoy using, and I'll ask that these get "looked into" as well.

[Andre]

If you honestly think this is how the AI should behave, then I'm not sure what to say.

 

Enemies are basically stuck in a position because the leash range isn't coded properly. I don't know of any game that would have this.

[EmilAmundsen]

I've been using the AI behaviour to my advantage to solo the game. This together with the weapon-switch exploit are the two most powerful strategies I've found in the game so far. However, where the weapon-switch exploit is very obviously a glitch because it so blatantly breaks the rules the developers define for PoE gameplay, the AI-behaviour is less so. The game harbor may talents aimed exactly at exploiting AI behaviour. The paladin Zelous Charge is an example. At the same time the devs don't define the AI behaviour outside the bounds of PoE gameplay like with the weapon-switch exploit. I'm thinking that a pre-conseption of how an rpg should be played is what would lead someone to think of the current AI behaviour as a bug.

 

My experience with the AI behaviour is this. The AI come in two modes. Some, maybe the majority of opponents, operate in a localized mode where they return home when they "tire of chasing you". Some however, operate in roaming mode, where they will follow you to the end of the world, and where the only thing that can halt them is if they inadvertently attack wildlife that gets between them and yourself. Sometimes you meet a band of mixed opponents, where some return home and some follow you forever. Other times, like with the bounty on "The Dweller", the opponents and his whole darned band hunt you tirelessly.

 

So, my take on it is this. The AI behaviour is an abstract way of simulating geurilla warfare or small unorganized engagements, that can not be satisfyingly be represented directly on the computer medium but rather through game mechanics. When an assassin assail a band from the darkness of night, it's very logical that said opponents would behave irrational and not always in concert. The abstraction is not a perfect mirror image or reality to be sure, but I kind of think it's a lot better than what we get in most RPGs. From a mechanics standpoint, I think it is a good way to expand combat gameplay beyond stand and hack. With chosing from easy to hard difficulty you can stand and fight with maybe every opponent in the game, but you can also choose to level up your game-play, doing path of the danmed or reducing the number of party-members and still be able to consistently survivable, with hit-and-run strategies.

 

In my mind there is one bug tho, not in the AI behaviour but rather a problem because of AI behaviour. It's that when someone engage someone who is moving, they get a free desengagement attack instead of the opponent just stopping for the engagement like he should. Instead he stops after the disengagement and re-engage. The AI will use it on you, but once you become aware of it you can use it on every opponent that has a lozalized behaviour to ensure that you get as many attacks on him as he does on you no matter how slow your weapon or how fast his is. It's not a bad bug, but unlike what is described in OP it is an actual bug.

Edited April 3, 2015 by EmilAmundsen

[Andre]

Well then it's on Obsidian to decide if the behaviour of the AI is intended or not.

But there's one component of the "localized" AI that you mentioned that I'm certain is bugged. Sometimes when they walk back they will heal, basically negating any damage you did to them through ranged attacks/spells. This does seem to occur quite rarely though, I'm not sure what the trigger is.

 

Also given how the point of PotD is that it maxes the number of encounters you face in a given group, the mechanic of splitting individual enemies from said group goes against that point.

 

The weapon switching exploit you mention, do you mean the one when you open the inventory, wait for the animation to finish and then attack/cast again without any recovery? That one totally breaks the combat. It trivializes the challenge just like the issues in the OP.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Andre

[Lord_Mord]

Sometimes it is even worse. The ogres don't go back to their spots. They just stand still with their backs to the group. And somtimes they immediately go into the other direction, if I do so (Not, if the fog of war touches them, like other creatures do). So the group has enough time to finish their turns and shoot again. I don't want to exploit their behaviour. I just want to run away to keep some distance to them (If I have no tank in my group, they would be too strong to directly attack them). I think my strategy is fair, because in real life, if I had to kill a slow and strong creature, I would do the same thing. But they should have a real chance to catch me or do something against my strategy. If they behave that stupid, they could as well stand still and wait for me to kill them. Somehow they have to react in an intelligent way. The Ogre Druids try to catch me with Tanglefoot or something. But mostly they get stuck themselves. Maybe they could do a little sprint and try to engage one of my group members. But if they do so, they are a little bit exhausted. Something like that would be pretty cool. Different monster could have different behaviours for that situation.

 

 

PS: I think being able to split groups is a good thing. But it is too easy because of their stupid behaviour.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Lord_Mord