Controversial Limerick Discussion

[Longknife]

 And even if it is true, then you're pretty much saying that you getting a slight chuckle is more important than the actual lives of other people.

 

You are saying that a slight chuckle provided from a video game and not an actual person is going to ruin someone's life. Let that sink in a moment.

[Mungri]

Its angers and hurts no one but the cry baby SJWs.

[TheHarpoMarxist]

This isn't about censorship.  Stop bringing censorship up and treating this like it is some sort of big deal and blowing it out of proportion.  This is a BACKER CREATED epitaph.  It can go away and the game will be better for it.

 

Nobody is going to censor your games.  Nobody is asking for the removal of any of the challenging and darker material in the game.  This one thing is pointless and hateful.  Its really sad to see so many people turn this into some sort of weird political vendetta against "SJW" instead of what it is - a piss poor backer created epitaph that has nothing to do with anything else in the game.  It can be removed and make a whole lot of people feel less uneasy about the game without taking anything away from anyone else's experience.  How about just a little compassion?  Go with the "Benevolent" option here instead of the "Cruel" one.

[darkpatriot]

The limmerick is not hateful.  You are using that word far too casually.  Only a radical minority consider it to be hateful and I do not consider catering to a radical minority to be a good policy.

Edited April 2, 2015 by darkpatriot

[Mungri]

Nothing wrong with backer created stuff in the game. They paid for it, and Obsidian needed that money to make the game. People are whining for the sake of whining / trolling. Over entitlement issues.

[Longknife]

This isn't about censorship.

 

 

Then what is this about? I have a post a page ago that's yet to be countered:

 

 

You guys do realize you're debating which side has been more polite or which side has received more discrimination, right?

 

All of this is irrelevant and a result of yourselves pouring your own agendas into an otherwise simple issue.

 

A joke was made, some people got offended, some did not. You can either support the joke's right to exist or believe it couldn't hurt to remove it so long as the author okays it and Obsidian shows a desire to recall it. It's that simple. There is no "trans vs. non-trans thought" here, there is no "my side has been more polite, therefore we should get our way," there is no "my side is subject to more discrimination and therefore we should get our way." That's not how it works.

 

 

 

A joke was made, some people got offended, Obsidian is fully in their right to leave it in or get it removed. If people choose to get offended and mad at Obsidian for having it or keeping it, that's their problem and only gets the attention it does because Obsidian is a business and must of course evaluate if they care that much about catering to this group. If Obsidian were to remove it and people conclude Obsidian is spineless and demand their money back, again that's their problem, and again the only reason this would give Obsidian thought is in the interest of appealing to their customers.

 

  The end result is that all you guys are doing is applying an unusually disproportionate level of stress for them that, in my humble opinion, doesn't seem warranted at all. There's absolutely zero reason to invest this much time and effort into this, and again in my humble opinion, if you invest THIS much effort into a joke and the alleged implications it has, then uhhh...well maybe you could find a better use of your time? Don't mean that disrespectfully, but yeah, if your goal is trans rights for example then surely there's better ways to use your time in favor of the trans community rather than arguing about a joke in a random RPG on the internet. If your interest is comedy and free speech....well personally I'm in this camp cause I love comedy, and this stuff happens CONSTANTLY. This is status quo for comedy, so I see no reason to sweat it more than any other; just laugh it off and keep telling jokes that may or may not offend people. I can only hope Obsidian actually doesn't give a **** and is only entertaining such threads like this one in the interest of showing that everyone's right to an opinion and discussion is respected, and that they otherwise aren't sweating it.

 

 

This is neither censorship nor oppression. It's a joke that offends some people and makes others laugh, and it is fully up to Obsidian to determine if they feel it's removal is warranted or not. They are not spineless cowards giving into censorship if they remove it, they are not oppressive insensitive hillbillies if they decide to keep it. You are in the wrong aswell if you attempt to put more meaning into this than there actually is.

[Bayzent]

 

Actually, an "other" option would be lovely and appropriate.  It is 2015, and we should be better by now.

 

I'm really disappointed that so many people in this community are so gung-ho to mock people who aren't cis-gendered.  If you want another compelling reason to remove the "joke" epitaph, its **** like this.

 

So "Male" and "Female" should be recognized as separated entities, but Trans should be piled up there in the Gabage bin with "Other", in the same place of "Otherkin" and all?

 

Wow...just...wow...

[Ekaros]

 

 

This is neither censorship nor oppression. It's a joke that offends some people and makes others laugh, and it is fully up to Obsidian to determine if they feel it's removal is warranted or not. They are not spineless cowards giving into censorship if they remove it, they are not oppressive insensitive hillbillies if they decide to keep it. You are in the wrong aswell if you attempt to put more meaning into this than there actually is.

 

 

It's Obsidians right to remove it, but the consequences then are also theirs to carry. I for one will suggest everyone to boycott them for foreseeable future. As I do with other companies that has wronged consumers like Double Fine. After all boycott is only effective tool consumer has. I hope Obsidian understands this as well.

[TheHarpoMarxist]

Its about protecting the artistic integrity of the game and working to make games more inclusive and less offputting to marginilized people.  That doesn't mean you can't have dark / challenging content or humor.  It just has to be fit your setting and be handled well.  The game itself and obsidian's writers make Durance a misogynist.  Nobody is asking for him to be removed from the game, because the game makes it very clear that he's flawed in that way.  This backer epitaph isn't part of Obsidian's writing.  Obsidian vetted plenty of backer content, and I'ms ure they removed a whole lot of hateful garbage.  This one just slipped through the cracks.

 

Everyone who loves jokes making fun of trans people can find such things in other places.  It doesn't need to be here, in the middle of an otherwise sensitive and thought provoking game.

[TheHarpoMarxist]

 

removed, wrong person

Edited April 2, 2015 by TheHarpoMarxist

[TheHarpoMarxist]

[Removed, wrong person.]

[Longknife]

 

 

 

This is neither censorship nor oppression. It's a joke that offends some people and makes others laugh, and it is fully up to Obsidian to determine if they feel it's removal is warranted or not. They are not spineless cowards giving into censorship if they remove it, they are not oppressive insensitive hillbillies if they decide to keep it. You are in the wrong aswell if you attempt to put more meaning into this than there actually is.

 

 

It's Obsidians right to remove it, but the consequences then are also theirs to carry. I for one will suggest everyone to boycott them for foreseeable future. As I do with other companies that has wronged consumers like Double Fine. After all boycott is only effective tool consumer has. I hope Obsidian understands this as well.

 

 

No. No no no no.

 

This is a fallacy because you are presuming that they were coerced into removing it and did not remove it of their own accord and following their own moral code and their own desire to remove it after attention was called to it and they realized it was there (fully plausible to miss it amongst the thousands of messages to go through) or fully realized implications of it that they themselves are truly not fond of on a personal level. You are basically convicting them without conclusive evidence.

 

You are free to voice concerns about coercion and pressure from certain groups and how that can lead to unneccesary censorship, but unless Obsidian is making an official statement saying "we caved to the pressure and got scurred by bad press so we removed it" (<---not happening), you would not be handling the situation fairly to assume the worst of their decision and begin your boycott.

[TheHarpoMarxist]

 

 

Actually, an "other" option would be lovely and appropriate.  It is 2015, and we should be better by now.

 

I'm really disappointed that so many people in this community are so gung-ho to mock people who aren't cis-gendered.  If you want another compelling reason to remove the "joke" epitaph, its **** like this.

 

So "Male" and "Female" should be recognized as separated entities, but Trans should be piled up there in the Gabage bin with "Other", in the same place of "Otherkin" and all?

 

Wow...just...wow...

 

You.  You grow up.

[Marceror]

Um, can this topic just be locked... because reasons?

 

/sigh

[Kal Adan]

How is this a problem now? Surely Obsidian did put work of Backers into Pillars of Eternity in the first place?

[Longknife]

Its about protecting the artistic integrity of the game and working to make games more inclusive and less offputting to marginilized people.  That doesn't mean you can't have dark / challenging content or humor.  It just has to be fit your setting and be handled well.  The game itself and obsidian's writers make Durance a misogynist.  Nobody is asking for him to be removed from the game, because the game makes it very clear that he's flawed in that way.  This backer epitaph isn't part of Obsidian's writing.  Obsidian vetted plenty of backer content, and I'ms ure they removed a whole lot of hateful garbage.  This one just slipped through the cracks.

 

Everyone who loves jokes making fun of trans people can find such things in other places.  It doesn't need to be here, in the middle of an otherwise sensitive and thought provoking game.

 

 

This is comedy. Comedy is a form of art and thus that is artistic integrity.

 

Pro-tip: Comedy's job is to dance the line of what's appropriate. Honestly? Comedy and art in general have no limitations or barriers. You could theoretically produce art that's racist as all hell, that would not stop it from being art and a form of expression. Hell, some people would argue Heart of Darkness is exactly that. The only reason comedy "dances the line of what's appropriate" is because comedians ultimately seek to make people laugh and smile, so it's not often you'll see one go on stage making jokes about the holocaust, satisfied in knowing he himself sees the humor in it, because there's a clear desire to make others laugh as well and it's painfully obvious such jokes wouldn't fly. But are holocaust jokes completely off the table? No, nothing is for comedy. Look up the Darth Vader vs. Hitler rap battles on Youtube and you can see this plain as day. The jokes are justified, and why? Because they managed to make people laugh.

 

 

Your Durance argument also holds no water because who is to say the dead guy is not flawed as a transphobe? (though I still do not see how the joke is offensive, I think people are reading waaaaaaay too much into it for that)

 

The "they don't need it here" argument could be applied anywhere, and is as such a non-argument.

 

 

Obsidian is the author here, they are subject to freedom of speech just like anyone else. As such, they are fully within their rights to keep the joke or discard it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[darkpatriot]

Its about protecting the artistic integrity of the game and working to make games more inclusive and less offputting to marginilized people.  That doesn't mean you can't have dark / challenging content or humor.  It just has to be fit your setting and be handled well.  The game itself and obsidian's writers make Durance a misogynist.  Nobody is asking for him to be removed from the game, because the game makes it very clear that he's flawed in that way.  This backer epitaph isn't part of Obsidian's writing.  Obsidian vetted plenty of backer content, and I'ms ure they removed a whole lot of hateful garbage.  This one just slipped through the cracks.

 

Everyone who loves jokes making fun of trans people can find such things in other places.  It doesn't need to be here, in the middle of an otherwise sensitive and thought provoking game.

The importance of not having censorship is not really about artistic integrity.  That is a side effect.  The importance is that it protects political speech.  Art is just the most common battleground that the fight over censorship takes place in.

 

Removing the backer epitaph would be a case of censorship btw.  This has already been covered in this thread but I'll state it again:

 

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions."

 

Censorship is not always innapropriate, people self-censor all the time, but the urge to censor should always be resisted as it is very easy to justify increasing censorship until it has become a serious threat to free speech.  Hurt feelings is a weak justification for censorship.  Especially since as far as I can tell in this case tell we aren't talking about deeply hurt feelings, just mild offense.

Edited April 2, 2015 by darkpatriot

[TheHarpoMarxist]

I'm a comedy writer.  So please refrain from lecturing me about comedy.

 

Again, this isn't about censorship.  Please stop blowing this out of proportion, it isn't helpful.  Especially when coupled with a slippery slope fallacy.  There is no slippery slope here.  

 

The artistic integrity of Obsidian is not at stake, as this is backer related content.  The Durance example stands, as it is treated in a very specific way, whereas this limerick isn't written with nearly the same amount of care and specificity.  It is straight up making fun of trans people in a way that is most generously described as "lazy."

Edited April 2, 2015 by TheHarpoMarxist

[darkpatriot]

Please stop blowing this out of proportion, it isn't helpful.

 

That is pretty much the viewpoint of the people who don't want it removed and don't think it should be an issue.  You can't really accuse someone else of blowing something out or porportion when that is exactly what you are doing.


We all know the reason it has been blown out of porportion though.  Pretending like you aren't aware of this is kinda intellectually dishonest.  It exists as part of a larger political debate and it has become an issue within that debate.  This debate has given the issue increased importance outside of what it would inherently have by itself.  While Obsidian would prefer that this had not happened, Pandora's box has already been opened.  Not even all the effort in the world is gonna pack this back inside.

Edited April 2, 2015 by darkpatriot

[Longknife]

I'm a comedy writer.  So please refrain from lecturing me about comedy.

 

Again, this isn't about censorship.  Please stop blowing this out of proportion, it isn't helpful.  Especially when coupled with a slippery slope fallacy.  There is no slippery slope here.  

 

The artistic integrity of Obsidian is not at stake, as this is backer related content.

 

 

My big hairy ass you are a comedy writer, as that right there is probably the funniest statement you've ever written in your lifetime. Nor would it even be the case that WERE you actually a comedy writer, you are somehow absolved from any demand to counter opposing views and arguments made and your stance automatically reigns supreme.

 

 

Secondly, what the HELL are you talking about? I'm blowing it out of proportion? I'm the one telling everyone to calm the hell down, shutup, and leave Obsidian alone, because ultimately this is a personal decision Obsidian gets to make where they're free to do however they please, and anyone who would urge them to remove the limerick or keep it is merely inserting their own ideologies into the issue and blowing it out of proportion, holding a stake in the argument only because they perceive it holds more meaning than it actually does.

 

Finally, if Obsidian willingly chooses to keep it, then that is indeed artistic integrity as that's their intellectual property, even if the artistic statement being made is little more beyond "we appreciate our backers."

Disclaimer: My ass is neither big nor hairy. I'm moreso skinny and I'm one of those nordic types that only gets tiny blonde body hairs you can't really distinguish from the skin.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[TheHarpoMarxist]

Ah, but I'm not blowing anything out of proportion.  I see this as what it is - back written content that doesn't serve the game in any way.  Its a no-brainer to remove it, as it hurts plenty of people.  The reaction to that simple request is insane.  People are reacting as if art itself is under attack.  It isn't.  The only thing is that some people would like to see this stupid "joke", which adds nothing, removed so that the game will feel more inclusive to others.  That's it.  If you want to add gamergate political nonsense to it, that's not helpful.  I think it is better to not see a conspiracy theory behind everything and instead take people at face value when they say "Hey, this thing makes me uncomfortable, can we lose it since it isn't part of your game?"

[TheHarpoMarxist]

Longknife, you're yelling at a stranger over the internet.  You're ranting.  Over what, exactly?  A few people making a simple, reasonable request to remove a half baked joke written by a backer who didn't know better.  So yes, I do think you're blowing it out of proportion.  I'll make it easy for you and walk away, because I actually am a comedy writer.  And I need to get back to it.

[Longknife]

Ah, but I'm not blowing anything out of proportion.  I see this as what it is - back written content that doesn't serve the game in any way.  Its a no-brainer to remove it, as it hurts plenty of people.  The reaction to that simple request is insane.  People are reacting as if art itself is under attack.  It isn't.  The only thing is that some people would like to see this stupid "joke", which adds nothing, removed so that the game will feel more inclusive to others.  That's it.  If you want to add gamergate political nonsense to it, that's not helpful.  I think it is better to not see a conspiracy theory behind everything and instead take people at face value when they say "Hey, this thing makes me uncomfortable, can we lose it since it isn't part of your game?"

 

This is pure hypocrisy.

 

Your claim is "why not remove it? It's not that big of a deal."

 

The claim "why not keep it in? It's not that big of a deal" holds the exact same amount of merit.

 

You are convincing yourself that you are taking some righteous stance in the name of artistic integrity and that therefore you are objectively correct.

 

 

There is no objectively correct course of action here. Obsidian made this game and they are free to include or exclude anything they like from the game.

 

I could say "wolf pelts serve no purpose and they offend me cause I used to own a pet wolf and I'm an avid vegan, why not remove it?" Just because I do not find meaning or entertainment from it does not mean others are the same, or that Obsidian does not prefer they remain.

 

 

 

 

Longknife, you're yelling at a stranger over the internet.  You're ranting.  Over what, exactly?

 

 

The only time I've "yelled" is when you claimed to be a comedy writer, which is painfully clear to me to be a lie. As an avid fan of comedy, yes I'm going to call you out on this. Forgive me for not liking liars.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[darkpatriot]

Ah, but I'm not blowing anything out of proportion.  I see this as what it is - back written content that doesn't serve the game in any way.  Its a no-brainer to remove it, as it hurts plenty of people.  The reaction to that simple request is insane.  People are reacting as if art itself is under attack.  It isn't.  The only thing is that some people would like to see this stupid "joke", which adds nothing, removed so that the game will feel more inclusive to others.  That's it.  If you want to add gamergate political nonsense to it, that's not helpful.  I think it is better to not see a conspiracy theory behind everything and instead take people at face value when they say "Hey, this thing makes me uncomfortable, can we lose it since it isn't part of your game?"

 

This issue started when an activists with an agenda created this issue to try and use it to support their ideology.  There is nothing inherently wrong with this.  People should try and create the change they want, although I think many techniques people use to do so are not very productive.  But it should be recognized that this issue was started to support an ideologically driven agenda and to act like that this isn't the case is intellectually dishonest.  It is not, and it never was, a simple case of people having their feelings hurt as you are trying to portray it.

 

This was the original tweet that started this issue in case you have forgotten:

 

"Hey @Obsidian you should have said no to this backer.  Transmysogyny is not acceptable in 2015"

 

This person also has a history of being a politcally active twitter user on this topic.  While that person may have had some genuine hurt feelings, their purpose in creating this issue was to push a political agenda that they support.

 

The vast majority of the offense over this is ideologically driven offense, not genuine "my feelings are hurt" offense.

Edited April 2, 2015 by darkpatriot

[Amentep]

 

From the profile settings on this very board:

 

 

So if a person is not cisgendered, they have to hide it, is that it Obsidian? You think people should be ashamed of who they are? Is this some kind of transphobic message board? I request, nay, I demand that you add at least one more option such as "Other". Not that clumping everybody together under it is any less oppressing, but it's the least you could do.

 

*the above was a poor attempt at sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist when I saw the options in the settings. Whatevs.

**on an unrelated note, just noticed this smiley ->   awesome

Actually, an "other" option would be lovely and appropriate.  It is 2015, and we should be better by now.

 

I'm really disappointed that so many people in this community are so gung-ho to mock people who aren't cis-gendered.  If you want another compelling reason to remove the "joke" epitaph, its **** like this.

 

 

I'd rather just have gender be removed as an option.  How many times does someone read a post from a new member and think "I'd press "like this" on this post if only I knew what gender this person is..."

 

In fact does gender even display anywhere?  I've got mine set to "Not Telling" so I can't tell.  Well I can tell, but just not through the boards.  Quiet you.