The main things that bug me so far

[Lephys]

I somewhat disagree with the inventory management needing to be back thing. Somewhat.

 

I think there should be some manner of inventory limitation/management, in regard to the significance of any given item being in your possession or not-being in your possession.

 

A good example is money. No one in the realistic portion of medieval fantasy times carried around thousands of gold pieces anyway, unless they were transporting it on a wagon in a strongbox or multiple chests. So, I really don't need the weight of my coins simulated, and for some kind of "Oh, you can only carry 70lbs" simulator to be in place. That mostly covers lots of cool aspects of inventory limitation, but annoyingly just requires that you keep making trips just to drop off coins of precious metals into a box at your base or in town, then fast traveling back to the place where more, weighty money is located, etc.

 

Another thing I'm not cool on is "limitless inventory just lets you vacuum-cleaner up all the loots, so we need it to be limited so that you can't do that and get so rich, etc." Not really... That isn't the reason it should be limited, because "I can sell 97 leather armors to the armorsmith, who makes leather armor, for significant amounts of money!" is not a lack of inventory limitation's fault. It's the wonky loot-value system's fault.

 

It's this really, really weird notion that video games have developed that all material items on someone who is dead are loot. Like, in the modern day, if you mugged someone in an alley, you'd take all their clothes, their shoes, their wallet (not just the money in it) their piercings, etc., then go try to sell it all to someone. No... you'd probably take their money out of their wallet (or maybe their whole wallet, for convenience, depending... but not so you can sell the wallet), and maybe their phone if it was nice. Everything isn't supposed to even have a sale value. That's the thing. Sure, maybe Old Man McWinterburger loves and adores leather scraps. So, you COULD gather all the old leather armor you can find and bring it to him, but all that's going to accomplish is the appreciation of Old Man McWinterburger. Maybe he gives you something, or you get something from that you deem valuable. Maybe not. There ya go. Problem solved. Something needs to stop us from taking all the leather armor in the world? How about a lack of a reason to do so (like an Xcp sale price on each and every one of them?).

 

Now, that doesn't mean there's no reason to limit inventory space/size/weight. But, like I said, the reason should be that it actually contributes to the significance of certain things being in your inventory or not at any given moment. An inventory management system is only as good as the reasons the game gives you to manage your inventory. "Because you can't carry infinite stuff in real life" isn't a very good reason. Don't get me wrong, as I love heavy simulation in my RPGs, too. But, in the end, the game has to have a reason for it. You can't just simulate something, THEN try to come up with a reason for it. You've got to do it the other way 'round.

 

Same with item degradation. I love item degradation, but "this item essentially has HP, and you have to repair it all the time just because you actually play through the game like you're supposed to" isn't contributing anything to the gameplay, save for a chore. What's significant is the effects of your item's degradation, and how you can make decisions that interact with the likelihood of those effects. An example I gave regarding this in another thread was for armor damage, for example, to be a temporary thing that happens when certain attacks/weapon-types are pitted against certain armor types. Don't want your breastplate to be rent, and your armor value lowered? Don't put your breastplate-wearer against a guy with a huge mace or warhammer. If he gets a critical hit with that, against that armor, it'll become damaged. Afterward, when the danger's gone, you can fix it. I don't care how you do it, really. You don't have to necessarily go back to town and pay a guy to fix it, but, even if you do -- even if the only thing that's different is that your armor and weapons don't just ALWAYS degrade -- that's a huge difference. You can decide between option A, which will make sure your item degrades less or none, or option B, which will result in more degradation or risk of it, etc. Heck even Diablo 3 realizes this, as your items only degrade when you die. So, it's an incentive not to die. You COULD die, and just respawn, and come back and try again, but now your items are suffering. Not a super-in-depth amazing system, but at least it's not "wait, you hit stuff with your weapon?! WHO DOES THAT?! Now you have to go repair your weapon, because realism! Don't hit stuff with your weapon if you don't want to have to go out of your way to fix it!"

 

That's what gameplay is all about. If you want to put a system in a game, the first question you need to ask is "Can the player make significant decisions regarding this occurring?" With inventory management, if the only effect of its existence is "It's inconvenient to loot all the things that have a reason to be looted because they're all worth money for some reason," then it probably has no place in that particular game. And if durability's only purpose is "you can only go around adventuring for so much time before you have to go pay a blacksmith some money," then IT probably shouldn't be in the game.

[crabe]

 

I've seen nothing but ridiculous ramblings in attempts to explain why Might works well. I

 

And we love you too.

 

It's like trying to prove that the Earth is flat. Might is utterly unintuitive and it's not the only such attribute. My Barbarian benefits from high intelligence, and should be on par with the wizard? Please.

 

 

I try to explain better. Let's take an easy example : you. For what I read here , you get average to good Might (figing/arguing spirit, power of nuisance) but low to average Intellect (you just can't understand the Might notion nor having a contradictory debate without using repeatedly the word "ridiculous" ). Get it?

Big Might does not mean big brain (our example -QED) nor big muscle. It's an element between many of a combination.

[crabe]

Except that Might is also used for physical intimidation. 

 

Yes, like for the little man Joe Pesci (not an athlete by any measure)

[Gairnulf]

No, sorry. Another failed attempt. It's really futile. Might doesn't work for wizards and for fighters at the same time.

[Lephys]

But is there something in the game that is going to make that impossible? Is there something that is automatically going to make my physically weak Wizard as strong as an ox? I'm genuinely curious...

Not-using your muscles doesn't make them not exist. I can never ever punch a guy or lift anything over 10lbs, but that doesn't mean I don't possess the physical strength to do these things effectively.

 

If you make a Wizard with 18 Might and just never cast any spells, did you just make a magically-weak Wizard? No. You made a magically-strong Wizard who happens to abstain from magic-slinging. He's got the capability of casting spells that deal more damage than other Wizards (or characters, for that matter) with lower Might, as well as the capability to swing a greatsword with greater force than other characters with lower Might.

 

So, the real question is "is there something in the game that is automatically going to make your Wizard as weak as a child?" And no, there isn't. And the "well, that 18 Might for my particular Wizard is soul strength, not physical strength!" Then what's everyone else's 18 Might? And if your soul strength applies to all things that physical strength does, as well, AND to magical things, then what do muscles do? Do they just store soul? They aren't actually bands of fibers that possess the ability to contract to produce kinetic energy via nerve pulses in this world? Your soul just animates your arm? And if a 3-year-old can just have a really strong soul, and throw a piano across the room, then why does anyone ever have larger muscles/a larger physique than anyone else, if those people don't have the ability to have the same strength of a soul PLUS physical strength that has nothing to do with how strong their soul is?

 

Imagine if we just rolled Resolve into Might, too. Might's your soul's power, right? Well, isn't Resolve the power of your will? Does your will not come from your soul? Or could someone be really, really strong, but lack resolve? Sure they could.

[crabe]

Might doesn't work for wizards and for fighters at the same time.

 

EDIT. okay, life is short.

Edited April 1, 2015 by crabe

[brosephhstalin]

 

-- Backer NPCs, aka "Zero interactivity guaranteed. No need to click". Duh.

 

Just false. Where are you in the game? How many hours?

 

 

Oh for the love of God please tell me that the gold-named NPCs have some use later besides those... stories. Personally I was quite far into Act 2 when I got hit with several bugs and decided to wait until a patch to pick it up again.

 

But really, DO they have use besides those backer stories?

[crabe]

 

 He's got the capability of casting spells that deal more damage than other Wizards (or characters, for that matter) with lower Might, as well as the capability to swing a greatsword with greater force than other characters with lower Might.

 

Yes but what for? for what result? If he has not the other elements of the combination to make a good fighter (let's say all the other things you can not choose at creation if you want a good wizard...), what would he like to fight in melee with the sword ? Just because he has the energy to do it?

Just try. Create a good wizard with high Might , give him a greatsword, send him in melee, and see if you can exit alive the encampement. Let's bet...

 

This is design for effect.

At he end, whatever you imagine his high Might represents, you will not send your powerful wizard in melee with a claymore.  It works. 

 

 And if a 3-year-old can just have a really strong soul, and throw a piano across the room, 

`

Well, in this system, throwing pianos does not depend of might but of Athletic skills.

Edited April 2, 2015 by crabe

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

Not-using your muscles doesn't make them not exist.

I'm more than aware that from a game-play perspective she'd be able to pick up a large sword and hack people to pieces. That isn't what I'm asking...

 

If I want to play as a physically weak character, is there anything within the dialogue and story-telling elements that says I am a physically strong person simply because my character has high might? Or is it entirely in my hands whether or not my character displays physical strength?

[Lephys]

If I want to play as a physically weak character, is there anything within the dialogue and story-telling elements that says I am a physically strong person simply because my character has high might? Or is it entirely in my hands whether or not my character displays physical strength?

You don't seem to understand that your stats are metrics/measurements of your character's innate, existent capabilities. If the game just never even addressed any feats of specifically physical or specifically soul-powered kinetic force, that wouldn't change the fact that your Might stat makes you physically strong AND non-physically strong at the exact same time.

 

Not only that, but there are dialogue options and checks in the game that DO involve Might, and DO specifically reference the ability to knock a wall down, or perform other physical feats.

 

But, it's not in your hands. That's the nature of a stat system. Maybe your person with high Perception is just really really good at hearing, but is actually blind. No, because they don't suffer any kind of accuracy penalty, ever. See how that works?

 

I understand what you're saying. I really do. But that's beside the point. That's a completely different point. No one's saying "my game is ruined because the game's constantly telling me that my guy has huge muscles." The stat mechanics are telling me that my high-Might character has strength that cannot be accurately referenced by anything in the game, because nothing actually determines how much of which kind of strength you have. Thus, if you come upon a giant statue that's crushing someone's leg, and it asks if you can lift it with your hands, and you have 18 Might, YOU CAN! And if you come upon a giant magical barrier, and the only way to get past it is with the utmost soul-strength, YOU CAN! Because 18 Might!

 

The stat is incapable of allowing you to be physically weak and soulfully strong, or vice versa. Because that's how stats work. They measure your character. And that stat is measuring two things at the same time.

 

It's quite simple, really. In D&D, I could have a Wizard with 17 Strength, or a Wizard with 7 Strength. That was actually significant. My Wizard with 7 Strength could fail to be able to do things that other people could do, while still being a potent magical person. This goes beyond just dealing damage with a physical weapon or unarmed blow. And the same goes for magical strength. It's significant, in an RPG, to be able to have a Warrior who's 7 feet tall and able to juggle cows, but cannot, for the life of him, magically (or in this case, soul-ishly?) produce much force or energy.

 

That's missing from PoE. It's kinda sad. I'm not saying "OMG, MIGHT RUINED THE GAME!" It didn't. But, I'm mindblown by the people who keep saying "Nuh-huh, your might score doesn't mean you're good or bad at BOTH things, even though it's inherently measuring both of them at the same time with one, single stat value!", because that's simply nonsense. The fact that we are allowed to pretend our character is weak in one way and strong in another by avoiding anything in the game directly referencing our specific physical/soul-based strength is not the same thing as what our character is or isn't based upon the mechanics of character stats.

[Gairnulf]

 

 

-- Backer NPCs, aka "Zero interactivity guaranteed. No need to click". Duh.

 

Just false. Where are you in the game? How many hours?

 

 

Oh for the love of God please tell me that the gold-named NPCs have some use later besides those... stories. Personally I was quite far into Act 2 when I got hit with several bugs and decided to wait until a patch to pick it up again.

 

But really, DO they have use besides those backer stories?

 

Apparently no.

 

I can add something else, although I should make a separate category for lore oddities:

-- Besides wichts I haven't seen any actual children in the game yet. (The farthest I've been so far is Defiance Bay).

 

I've discovered a couple of inconsistencies between the Collector's Book and game content, but I'll comment once I've finished the book.

[crabe]

 

 But, I'm mindblown by the people who keep saying "Nuh-huh, your might score doesn't mean you're good or bad at BOTH things, even though it's inherently measuring both of them at the same time with one, single stat value!", because that's simply nonsense. 

 

 

 

Because you overestimate what are attributes in this system, I think. One attribute is not enough. Might for example will just increase your damage. It can mean you are more muscular, or it can mean you are more agressive, or nastier, or....etc. All the rest of the elements like skills, abilities etc. have much more importance than in D&D/BG for example to define what can do and what is your character. In a fight for example, Might will have far less importance in PoE than Strength in D&D. D&D is a descriptive system (design by cause), PoE is a synthetic system (design for effect). 

 

Not only that, but there are dialogue options and checks in the game that DO involve Might, and DO specifically reference the ability to knock a wall down, or perform other physical feats.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember you need Might to break this wall (but a hammer). The only time I remember I need Might  (I can be wrong) in a dialogue was for physical intimidation (and I can buy that a nasty energic wimp can be physically intimidating). For the rest, I remember we need skills like athletism or tools etc.)

[crabe]

 

-- Besides wichts I haven't seen any actual children in the game yet. (The farthest I've been so far is Defiance Bay).

 

 

You missed the one in Glidevale apparently

[Lightzy]

 

Not-using your muscles doesn't make them not exist.

I'm more than aware that from a game-play perspective she'd be able to pick up a large sword and hack people to pieces. That isn't what I'm asking...

 

If I want to play as a physically weak character, is there anything within the dialogue and story-telling elements that says I am a physically strong person simply because my character has high might? Or is it entirely in my hands whether or not my character displays physical strength?

 

 

The reason you can't really build a character like that is because it will not be anything else.

You need might to have good attack damage with spells (oh spiritual might, what bull****. spiritual might = resolve, or at least should have been), but you only have so many attribute points to spend, so in the end you're going to be "mighty".

 

 

It's be a shame to make an "intelligent" character however, as intelligence is by far the worst stat there is I would have made it contribute to magic damage and "to hit"

Edited April 2, 2015 by Lightzy

[Lightzy]

The biggest mistake of this stat system was making might the only thing that contributes to damage overall, representing physical and "emotional" strength of whatever.

 

 

There is no such thing as a frail old wizard who is very powerful in the world of PoE, at least according to the stat system, because if you have 3 might then you are indeed physically frail, but your spells will be mostly harmless too. High level ones as well (of which you have very few anyway, and your wand will do no damage).

So, no powerful old wizards. forget about that.

 

Not that I mind it that much, but it's unintuitive as all ****, and the game world goes to no length at all to make it show that this is a unique setting. The stat system is always at odds with the actual setting of the game.

 

 

 

Also, might makes guns stronger.

Yeah, whatever argument you have in favor of this system, if you keep going here, then you're an idiot, however smart you want to make yourself appear.

[Hellraiser789]

- Shops in Defiance Bay work 24/7. Some people call this convenient. But some people also call 'respec' convenient. I call it immersion breaking.

 

I also call immersion breaking being greeted with "The young woman stands by the cart, watching the crowd with large, bright eyes that focus on you as you approach." in the middle of the <lovely> night!

 

...So what happens when you get hungry? (Or your character gets hungry - doesnt he need to eat too?) Or you're clicking your mouse? Wouldn't these things break your immersion too? Honestly sounds like everything breaks your immersion....

 

Its called suspension of disbelief. Yeah, NPCs doing their own things and having routines and stuff is cool, but rarely implemented and this game apparently didn't have the budget for that so....(or they just didn't think it was a priority).

 

Also with the whole might thing - if you want to roleplay a character with high magic ability and low strength, why cant you? Just roleplay it, pretend, whatever. Sure, the game will still give you the OPTION to be the physically strong person, but if you don't choose those options, arent you effectively avoiding demonstrating those physical powers? Just because theoretically, according to some numbers on a screen, your character COULD lift that 100 lb rock, if you dont roleplay hiim to be able to do that (and chose to avoid such options due to his "weak" physical strength) wouldnt that be a much more effective way of depicting him as a "weak" character? Maybe I just don't understand the whole RP thing....

 

Although, I'd agree. Personally I think itd have been better to split the stats and make them a bit more intuitive, but I don't really mind too much. I dont really worry about immersion or roleplaying so lucky me I guess.   

 

*Edit: Sorry, that first part mightve come off harsher than I intended, I've had a long night - its like 5:30am here, so I think I'm gonna go to sleep now.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[crabe]

It's crazy.... A frail old wizard would have low Constit, no low Might....

[Katarack21]

It's crazy.... A frail old wizard would have low Constit, no low Might....

Raistlin Majere: Might of 40. Constitution of 3.

[john_boy]

The biggest joke - might affects your bullets' damage

 

Perhaps might in this instance, signifies a gangsta background ? You know, gold jewelry and a propensity to hold your musket at a jaunty sideways angle.

 

Before popping a cap.

[Katarack21]

 

The biggest joke - might affects your bullets' damage

 

Perhaps might in this instance, signifies a gangsta background ? You know, gold jewelry and a propensity to hold your musket at a jaunty sideways angle.

 

Before popping a cap.

 

 

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Every single human being in this setting has supernatural magical powers, or at the very least the potential for such. Whether you are shooting a bow or punching a person or casting a spell, specialized training allows you to access the energy of your soul to accomplish superhuman feats. Might increasing damage of ranged weapons makes perfect sense in this setting.

[john_boy]

 

 

The biggest joke - might affects your bullets' damage

 

Perhaps might in this instance, signifies a gangsta background ? You know, gold jewelry and a propensity to hold your musket at a jaunty sideways angle.

 

Before popping a cap.

 

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Every single human being in this setting has supernatural magical powers, or at the very least the potential for such. Whether you are shooting a bow or punching a person or casting a spell, specialized training allows you to access the energy of your soul to accomplish superhuman feats. Might increasing damage of ranged weapons makes perfect sense in this setting.

 

 

I think it's the bling as far as firearms are concerned.

[syarulax]

Some of this stuff I've mentioned before, and is my confirmed worries from before the release. Other is something that's made an impression on me while playing the full game.

• Economy - getting too rich too soon is a thing. I'm intentionally not using the Stash and this has allowed me to avoid picking up merely somewhere around 1000cp worth of loot. I'm being mostly thorough with looting, as much as my characters' inventories allow, and I refrain from stealing from those containers which are not marked by a red mouse pointer, yet it wouldn't make sense in a roleplay sense to steal from them. And still I've got a bit over 5000cp for 15hrs of playing (not taken the stronghold yet)
• Stash/Item weight/Encumbrance - needs added complexity to feel less like a vacuum-cleaner sim. The Stash is a mess functionality- and design-wise, among many exmaples - it's completely possible to accidentally send stuff you want to use into your stash while in the wilderness, and then be unable to get it out of the stash until you return to town. This is dumb as heck. Before someone comes and tries to be smart - no I can't turn stash accessible everywhere because 1) I play on Expert and 2) it defeats the purpose of restricting stash in the first place if you have to enable it because of technical reasons born out of a bad design decision.
• UI
  • markers on map, it's important guise
  • Make tab key highlight the destination markers when you've sent your characters to a location, in addition to displaying markers for selected party memebers
• Stealth on party member level
• Separated stealth and trap-detecting stance
• Crafting/enchanting - shouldn't be possible everywhere, at specific smiths and for a price would be nice
• Might cannot designate both mental and physical strength. It's too hurtful to the very roleplay aspect to have a good wizard whose side-talent is breaking iron bars with his bare hands.
• Stronghold - can't comment on this one yet, but from what I read about it, it will come up soon.

 

 

The economy with "stash" is just that it doesn't waste your time running around between dungeon and merchant ( which what ever it is someone might just do it anyway) to sell stuff like other MMO/rpg implemented. For sake of realism, but actually it just inventory mechanic that waste time, I myself rather dive into story, quest, plot, encounter to enjoy this game.  In Torchlight II you have pet where you can send to sell what ever stuff you put on him by sending him to the town, which then the pet comeback later on after few minutes, what does it make it different this game does if it not doing the same for sake of your so-called realism where as most the stuff even the cut-scene is done in text/image slide interactive and most of time you need to imagine while conversation take place. Or actually you want a pet mimic stash that follow you around or pack mule like in DS, to add the fantasy feeling?

 

Again  about makers, I love more Morrowind than any next Elder Scrolls series simply it throw you out in a world where you need to listen what other people say and what books, text journal written about. With makers you simply kill the novelty of this game design which nobody will ever want to read, which can be done by pressing space bar rapidly to end conversation, don't have to open journal/quest, run marker, click to interact, or kill someone or what ever the quest is, and press the space bar rapidly, quest end get EXP, that's the most stupid rope-playing game game design that involve heavy writings, plot and design. Modern game nowdays teach you people to forget literature instead look more to blood spat/ gore that spill on your TV/Computer screen, to give the feeling of "Masturbation".

 

 

The idea Might govern damage and healing, or other stat for that matter is that there will be no min maxing stat that you use to abuse in IE games. If you simple can't accept that fact maybe you just an old man who don't like innovation, or can you actually imagine a cripple man on wheel chair ( MIGHT 5) having 26 INT from min max stat, can cast the best fireball in the game. You have prybar you can use without needing your bare hand although you a wizard qualify for it, you love your own style of roleplaying why not make your own rule while playing the game.

Edited April 2, 2015 by syarulax

[Hellraiser789]

Just think of it like you're the main character of Wanted and you can make bullets curve and whatnot. Everybody is actually a trained assassin and has had extensive training with all types of weaponry, regardless of backgroud. but seriously, what @Katarack said is enough for me, personally.

[Kveldulf]

- Shops in Defiance Bay work 24/7. Some people call this convenient. But some people also call 'respec' convenient. I call it immersion breaking.

 

I also call immersion breaking being greeted with "The young woman stands by the cart, watching the crowd with large, bright eyes that focus on you as you approach." in the middle of the <lovely> night!

 

 

I liked the day nights scripts of Arcanum. Very well done. It really made a thief feel more sneaky (or an assassin!). As well as set the mood in general (immersive).

 

I imagine that would have taken a lot more time to develop though.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kveldulf

[crabe]

You even don't need to force your RP. Again, just try to play your mighty wizard in melee with a claymore, he will die early and accomplish nothing, as you used skills and abilities to make a good wizard, not a good warrior. At the end of the character creation, you realize then, that your mighty character is mentally strong, but obviously not  physically strong. That's design for effect. And that's why this stat system works pretty good.