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Wizards seem sub par compared to Druids. What am I missing?


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I actually like the Wizards in this game. Usually Wizards in CRPGs tend to be overpowered but in PoE I think they've hit a nice balance. Also with correct positioning and patience, you can dish out great damage, with just a nice Ray of Fire for example :)

They are definitely overpowered in a lot of games (ranged classes often are), especially in the past. So like I said, I do understand FF and/or other methods to try to mitigate such issues. But while I love real-time pause, it doesn't mean I want to spend every fight/scenario pausing every 2 seconds to position and reposition and position some more. Along with the always present pathing AI issues, it becomes dreary for some of us. :)

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“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I know what you're saying but didn't BG1 Wizards have a ton more utility and variety? Didn't they have spells like invisibility, summons, a lower version of stoneskin (complete absorb X amount of damage). I played BG2 far more than BG1, so I admit my memory is a bit vague on that.

You're thinking of BG2. You do see some of those spells in BG1 as well, but mages have so few spell slots until very late in the game that you'll barely ever use them unless you rest-spam out the wazoo.

 

I do like the BG2 spell system better than the P:E one, warts and all. IMO they should've built on its strengths rather than just attempting to eliminate its weaknesses (such as easily abusable save-or-die effects, or wildly differently-valuable spells at any given level).

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I actually like the Wizards in this game. Usually Wizards in CRPGs tend to be overpowered but in PoE I think they've hit a nice balance. Also with correct positioning and patience, you can dish out great damage, with just a nice Ray of Fire for example :)

They are definitely overpowered in a lot of games (ranged classes often are), especially in the past. So like I said, I do understand FF and/or other methods to try to mitigate such issues. But while I love real-time pause, it doesn't mean I want to spend every fight/scenario pausing every 2 seconds to position and reposition and position some more. Along with the always present pathing AI issues, it becomes dreary for some of us. :)

 

The real problem is that combat is too fast. You do not have time to react - to enemies, hostile spells, anything.

 

1/ I have my defensive fighter in the back...and got killed within 10 seconds.

2/ Re-loaded game, put fighter to front, easily killed mobs....

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I am really early in the game, will not get a chance to really play long until Thursday because of work.  However, I agree that wizards kind of suck and not fun to play.  It really is stupid that you can use up your wizards spells in a couple of encounters and then have to rest to recharge it, while the other classes can fight away, all the while you can only use your scepter to attack.  What spells I have seen has not been very impressive and are made specifically for combat, what I was hoping for was something I can use outside of combat.  Magical lockpicking, spells for conversations(truth/compel/etc), Invisibility, summoning Gods/ghosts/entities(to use in battle, or to communicate to gain information or bargain with), teleportation..etc.  I am still very early like I said so maybe some of those will be in later.  Got these spells and all I am doing mostly with my Wizard is just spamming my crappy scepter shots.

Edited by Badmojo
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The real problem is that combat is too fast. You do not have time to react - to enemies, hostile spells, anything.

 

1/ I have my defensive fighter in the back...and got killed within 10 seconds.

2/ Re-loaded game, put fighter to front, easily killed mobs....

There's time.

 

Hit pause, pull everybody back except the defensive fighter. Then fight.

 

Tactics do make a huge difference though; do it right and you'll barely get your armor scuffed, do it wrong and it's TPW in 30 seconds or less. How is that a bad thing?

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I actually like the Wizards in this game. Usually Wizards in CRPGs tend to be overpowered but in PoE I think they've hit a nice balance. Also with correct positioning and patience, you can dish out great damage, with just a nice Ray of Fire for example :)

They are definitely overpowered in a lot of games (ranged classes often are), especially in the past. So like I said, I do understand FF and/or other methods to try to mitigate such issues. But while I love real-time pause, it doesn't mean I want to spend every fight/scenario pausing every 2 seconds to position and reposition and position some more. Along with the always present pathing AI issues, it becomes dreary for some of us. :)

 

The real problem is that combat is too fast. You do not have time to react - to enemies, hostile spells, anything.

 

1/ I have my defensive fighter in the back...and got killed within 10 seconds.

2/ Re-loaded game, put fighter to front, easily killed mobs....

 

 

Hm come to think of it you have a point there. In the BG games, the rounds were a bit longer and you could adjust your tactics more easily. PoE is a tad more hectic admitedly :)

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I am really early in the game, will not get a chance to really play long until Thursday because of work.  However, I agree that wizards kind of suck and not fun to play.  It really is stupid that you can use up your wizards spells in a couple of encounters and then have to rest to recharge it, while the other classes can fight away, all the while you can only use your want to attack.  What spells I have seen has not been very impressive and are made specifically for combat, what I was hoping for was something I can use outside of combat.  Magical lockpicking, spells for conversations(truth/compel/etc), Invisibility, summoning Gods/ghosts/entities(to use in battle, or to communicate to gain information or bargain with), teleportation..etc.  I am still very early like I said so maybe some of those will be in later.  Got these spells and all I am doing mostly with my Wizard is just spamming my crappy scepter shots.

Eventually you'll have multiple grimores that you can swap in between fights (or during a fight, with some delay) to extend spell use on your mage before having to rest.

 

I haven't gotten too terribly far either, so I can't really comment on how awesomely damaging (or not) wizard spells may be, but I haven't been super impressed with the ones up to lvl 5. Not that that is terribly surprising or anything, low level spells. original.gif And I have played some games with some friendly fire aspects that I didn't mind/didn't bother me. Just not liking it in PoE at the moment.

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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Yes, OP, wizards are weak compared to druids. But then again, so is everything else.Wizards in PoE are far better early than in BG/IWD. But they will not scale as well into later parts of the game, as they did in BG 2, and thank you OE for that. Wizards are good, druids are too strong, and wizards won't be the only late game class. 

 

Edit: I can't see how wizards can't be fun thou. They got the biggest selection of "powers" in the game, their skills are way more complex than in the IE games, and the int effect on aoe makes for some very interesting fights. Their obvious limits pr rest changes late, so they can cast more low level spells pr encounter too. 
 

Edited by TheisEjsing
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Wizards are way better than in BG1. Low-level AD&D wizards are terribad, and for most of the game your wizard will be low-level. They only start to hit their stride around level 8 which is near the end of BG1. In P:E OTOH wizards are pretty powerful from level 1. They're only slightly lackluster compared to druids (which rock).

At the higher levels in BG1 Wizards were pretty strong. Mirror image + stoneskin + spam fireball, haste and wands. In BG1 some of the hardest fights I came across I resolved by buffing my wizard to 100% fire resistance, hasting him, and sending him in alone to spam fireball wands at everything. That was awesome.

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I am really early in the game, will not get a chance to really play long until Thursday because of work.  However, I agree that wizards kind of suck and not fun to play.  It really is stupid that you can use up your wizards spells in a couple of encounters and then have to rest to recharge it, while the other classes can fight away, all the while you can only use your want to attack.  What spells I have seen has not been very impressive and are made specifically for combat, what I was hoping for was something I can use outside of combat.  Magical lockpicking, spells for conversations(truth/compel/etc), Invisibility, summoning Gods/ghosts/entities(to use in battle, or to communicate to gain information or bargain with), teleportation..etc.  I am still very early like I said so maybe some of those will be in later.  Got these spells and all I am doing mostly with my Wizard is just spamming my crappy scepter shots.

Eventually you'll have multiple grimores that you can swap in between fights (or during a fight, with some delay) to extend spell use on your mage before having to rest.

 

I haven't gotten too terribly far either, so I can't really comment on how awesomely damaging (or not) wizard spells may be, but I haven't been super impressed with the ones up to lvl 5. Not that that is terribly surprising or anything, low level spells. original.gif And I have played some games with some friendly fire aspects that I didn't mind/didn't bother me. Just not liking it in PoE at the moment.

 

 

Just to let you know that swapping spell books doesn't give you extra spell per rest. IE. It won't extend spell use on your mage before having to rest. At least it doesn't do it for me. I think that would be OP anyway. We could have 10 spell books.

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I am really early in the game, will not get a chance to really play long until Thursday because of work.  However, I agree that wizards kind of suck and not fun to play.  It really is stupid that you can use up your wizards spells in a couple of encounters and then have to rest to recharge it, while the other classes can fight away, all the while you can only use your want to attack.  What spells I have seen has not been very impressive and are made specifically for combat, what I was hoping for was something I can use outside of combat.  Magical lockpicking, spells for conversations(truth/compel/etc), Invisibility, summoning Gods/ghosts/entities(to use in battle, or to communicate to gain information or bargain with), teleportation..etc.  I am still very early like I said so maybe some of those will be in later.  Got these spells and all I am doing mostly with my Wizard is just spamming my crappy scepter shots.

Eventually you'll have multiple grimores that you can swap in between fights (or during a fight, with some delay) to extend spell use on your mage before having to rest.

 

I haven't gotten too terribly far either, so I can't really comment on how awesomely damaging (or not) wizard spells may be, but I haven't been super impressed with the ones up to lvl 5. Not that that is terribly surprising or anything, low level spells. original.gif And I have played some games with some friendly fire aspects that I didn't mind/didn't bother me. Just not liking it in PoE at the moment.

 

 

Just to let you know that swapping spell books doesn't give you extra spell per rest. IE. It won't extend spell use on your mage before having to rest. At least it doesn't do it for me. I think that would be OP anyway. We could have 10 spell books.

 

 

Correct, it gives you more spells to choose from (with the downside being the delay when switching books) but it doesn't give you more actual spell casts / rest. 

- How can I live my life if I can't even tell good from evil?

- Eh, they're both fine choices. Whatever floats your boat. 

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If you enjoy a spell casting class, I recommend a Cipher with ranged weapon, blunderbuss preferably. Squishy but deals a lot of damage and it is far more engaging than a Wizard requiring the player to be more focused into playing the class than a Wizard where all you can do is watch auto-attack until a challenging encounter comes up so you can use your spells.

 

Exactly what I did after trying out a wizard, and it's much more fun to be honest. So far my cipher spells have decent foe AoE and amazingly good debuffs, while I often don't even use my wizard spells at all due to positioning issues. On top of all that, cipher spells can be used as much as you want, while wizards are very much held back by the rest system.

 

Think back to Baldur's Gate. A limited rest system would have made wizards far less powerful there, and even so, the AD&D wizard spells were far more powerful.

 

So yes, wizards definitely need... well, something. More per-encounter abilities would help. So would better AoE.

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The real problem is that combat is too fast. You do not have time to react - to enemies, hostile spells, anything.

 

1/ I have my defensive fighter in the back...and got killed within 10 seconds.

2/ Re-loaded game, put fighter to front, easily killed mobs....

There's time.

 

Hit pause, pull everybody back except the defensive fighter. Then fight.

 

Tactics do make a huge difference though; do it right and you'll barely get your armor scuffed, do it wrong and it's TPW in 30 seconds or less. How is that a bad thing?

 

 

You can not. It was the combat after dialog. You can try, but disenge...attacks just kills my 2 characters right there.

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Correct, it gives you more spells to choose from (with the downside being the delay when switching books) but it doesn't give you more actual spell casts / rest.

Ah. I could swear it seemed like swapping them worked that way, but I must have misinterpreted something. :blush:

I do that a lot when sleepy and haven't gone to bed when I should. Like now. Keep telling myself "I'm going to bed now" but here I am checking in again....

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“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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If you enjoy a spell casting class, I recommend a Cipher with ranged weapon, blunderbuss preferably. Squishy but deals a lot of damage and it is far more engaging than a Wizard requiring the player to be more focused into playing the class than a Wizard where all you can do is watch auto-attack until a challenging encounter comes up so you can use your spells.

 

Exactly what I did after trying out a wizard, and it's much more fun to be honest. So far my cipher spells have decent foe AoE and amazingly good debuffs, while I often don't even use my wizard spells at all due to positioning issues. On top of all that, cipher spells can be used as much as you want, while wizards are very much held back by the rest system.

 

Think back to Baldur's Gate. A limited rest system would have made wizards far less powerful there, and even so, the AD&D wizard spells were far more powerful.

 

So yes, wizards definitely need... well, something. More per-encounter abilities would help. So would better AoE.

 

 

I'm having such a problem deciding on my re-roll, Cipher or Druid! The Druid has the same limit per rest issue as the Wizard but I don't have a problem with that. At least they have all their spells useable per rest compared to a Wizard. And they have a wider range of spells compared to the Cipher BUT.. the Cipher does have an interesting mechanic and their powers look fun, not a huge number or range of powers but they certainly look effective.

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Correct, it gives you more spells to choose from (with the downside being the delay when switching books) but it doesn't give you more actual spell casts / rest.

Ah. I could swear it seemed like swapping them worked that way, but I must have misinterpreted something. :blush:

I do that a lot when sleepy and haven't gone to bed when I should. Like now. Keep telling myself "I'm going to bed now" but here I am checking in again....

 

I know what you mean, sometimes it's so difficult to let go. I guess that shows how good this game is (a apart from they mucked up my all time favorite class! :p )

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It feels a lot more hectic because a lot more of your characters have a lot more active abilities.

 

I think the movement speed in combat could be tuned down a notch.

Its not just that.

 

1/ Spell-casting is much more faster. In IE games there is invocation period that takes time to cast spells and the round is 6s (2x-3x slower then PoE)

2/ Damage output of melee characters too big. 1-2 hits for casters to be killed.

- it just takes 1-2 guys to take down my Wizard in about 3 seconds.

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Wizards are way better than in BG1. Low-level AD&D wizards are terribad, and for most of the game your wizard will be low-level. They only start to hit their stride around level 8 which is near the end of BG1. In P:E OTOH wizards are pretty powerful from level 1. They're only slightly lackluster compared to druids (which rock).

Mages rocked in BG1.

Insant-win buttons on every spell level.

1: Sleep, grease.

2: Horror, web.

3: Haste, fireball.

4: More complicated spell level, but combining greater malison with horror for instance was BRUTAL, also, imp invis was quite brutal in the right circumstances.

5: Actually, the one spell level where I was quite dis-satisfied in BG1, none of the spells where very interesting there.

 

In regards to the topic, I haven't tried druids, but my two wizards are definitely deciding factors in both normal combats (aoe is extremely effective towards weaker enemies) and in boss battles (slick is basically instant win button, just lacks a long duration).

It might be that druids are too good atm?

Maybe I'll test them at some point.

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I'm having such a problem deciding on my re-roll, Cipher or Druid! The Druid has the same limit per rest issue as the Wizard but I don't have a problem with that. At least they have all their spells useable per rest compared to a Wizard. And they have a wider range of spells compared to the Cipher BUT.. the Cipher does have an interesting mechanic and their powers look fun, not a huge number or range of powers but they certainly look effective.

 

Cipher is great, but for that AoE damage I'd go with a druid. Much of the cipher's power comes from damage with a weapon and debuffs. They do have AoE damage (and yeah, better than a wizard...) but it seems like druid is king there.

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Wizards turn ALL their level 1 spells to "per encounter" at level 9 and ALL their level 2 spells to "per encounter" as well at level 11.

 

If you compare them to druids, the issue I think is just that druids are OP just now, not wizards too weak. They do their job just fine, when needed, and in-between can do a decent job just shooting and whatnot since their accuracy isn't too bad. When you consider that you can swap grimoires during combat and whatnot, that's pretty decent.

 

Once level 9+ though, they become a bit insane I think..4 rolling flames/fan of flames per wizard on engagement of every single fight without needing to rest will solve many "problems" I'm sure :)

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I like the mage. I have not tried druid nor cypher nor chanter, so maybe the problem is not the mage being bad, but those classes being too good?

 

I would have not been able to kill Raedric without Aloth. The basic skill they have is pretty damn good, although it is boring to use.

However, what gave me the win was the AoE cone of flame, it does so much damage! Those paladins had 10-12 DR, my poors paladin+fighter+ranger+barbarian were doing so little damage, like 5-10 per succesfull attack, and suddenly Aloth did 40 to all of them in one second. That turned the tides!! :)

 

The problem with mage is that it is boring. In regular encounters, you dont use spells. In boss encounters where you are overleveled, you dont use debuffs and just nuke.

In boss encounters where you are not overleveled and are challenging, you dont even remember what your spells do and you need to read them all again... xD

 

But I think mages are good. Raedric would have been impossible without debuffing those monsters and without a damage spike when I had the chance (to only roast one of my guys while hitting all of the enemies).

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The biggest oversight for me from the developers regarding the Wizard class is their lack of thought towards how camping supplies determine the power of the class itself.

 

By playing on Hard difficulty, you are massively dampening your Wizard potential by having only 2 rest supplies. A Wizard capability in combat shouldn't be stopped by resting supplies. I think that is extremely silly. Having to wait for lvl9 to unlock per encounter spells is quite over kill for a class that is supposed to be the Master of the Arcane.

 

Your Wizard is quite the lackluster class as it is, increasing the difficulty makes the Wizard class even more useless due to the limited camping supplies while other spell casting classes with overall better spells, remain unaffected due to their ability to cast spells per encounter.

 

Even with 20 Int , the bonus to duration of spells is lacking and with 20 might the damage is extremely low compared to other classes even while taking AoE damage into account.

I have yet to run out of spells on my wizard before I rest. Don't just casually sling them. Use them strategically so they do the most damage to enemy they can. Like using fireball on 2-3 enemies is a total waste. Don;t also use them in fights you know you will win and without problem. I use a lot of Aloth's 2p Encounter aoe with Raw dmg and gave his attack Blast upgrades.

 

 

 

 

I'm having such a problem deciding on my re-roll, Cipher or Druid! The Druid has the same limit per rest issue as the Wizard but I don't have a problem with that. At least they have all their spells useable per rest compared to a Wizard. And they have a wider range of spells compared to the Cipher BUT.. the Cipher does have an interesting mechanic and their powers look fun, not a huge number or range of powers but they certainly look effective.

 

Cipher is great, but for that AoE damage I'd go with a druid. Much of the cipher's power comes from damage with a weapon and debuffs. They do have AoE damage (and yeah, better than a wizard...) but it seems like druid is king there.

 

I dunno if druid can beat my cipher.

 

Mental Echo + Blunderbuss shot + 4 Mind Blades are devastating. Mental echo does like 40-50dmg non crit to enemies in path while i spam MB that also do 30-50 dmg per target. Also without per rest limits.

Edited by Killyox
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Once level 9+ though, they become a bit insane I think..4 rolling flames/fan of flames per wizard on engagement of every single fight without needing to rest will solve many "problems" I'm sure :)

It's nice to have that to look forward to. I'm sure it'll make a big difference when I get to level 9.

 

By the way, do druids and clerics also get their starting spells turned into per-encounter or is it just wizards?

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Once level 9+ though, they become a bit insane I think..4 rolling flames/fan of flames per wizard on engagement of every single fight without needing to rest will solve many "problems" I'm sure :)

It's nice to have that to look forward to. I'm sure it'll make a big difference when I get to level 9.

 

By the way, do druids and clerics also get their starting spells turned into per-encounter or is it just wizards?

 

they do

 

AS to cipher, my Cipher has like 4x the dmg of the 2nd most damaging guy in my party. ~40-45k dmg at lvl 6

Edited by Killyox
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