Sohtaraz Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) I do hope someone explains to Sawyer why bending over to their will is not exactly a good thing. Apologizing to these people when they are offended is the worst thing you can do, they are trolls nothing less nothing more. Whole thing stinks of Bullying, shaming and censorship. If someone reads the context of the message where a fictional person commits suicide because he thought himself of a womanizer and slept with a transgender as offensive that really is their problem, I think it more or less highlights the absurdity of the actual person committing the act of ending their own life do to their racism/sexism/whateverism if not trans-phobia. Edited March 29, 2015 by Sohtaraz 6
endgameoo Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Not only is this a light hearted limmerick in a fictional universe, there is genuinely nothing wrong with it. There is no "transmisogyny". Remove the poetic structure and leave the themes and what you are left with is a story of a person who possibly hid their gender from an intimate partner and the man became upset. Overreacted? Sure. But that overreaction is apart of the absurdity of poem. This is so ridiculous and people are willing to get upset over the most mundane things. There is no reason this should be removed and quite honestly I would be quite upset if it was censored. Because that is exactly what this would be. Censorship. A private interest group putting pressure on another entity in order to hide a piece of content. Positively absurd. 4
CatatonicMan Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 My opinion? Leave it in. There's no need to bend the knee to every offendatron that makes mountains out of molehills. 5
DrTuring Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 And Sawyer already bended over to them: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945 I wish I didn't back this game. I guess it depends on the producers. Hopefully things won't get to the point where everyone thinks it's a good idea to take it out because a few dozen people wanted it gone. 1
Timeus Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Naturally, the people who complain about being offended are the ones who unironically tweet "Kill all men". https://archive.today/56XGn https://archive.today/GaUcF https://archive.today/rJTjG https://archive.today/NviKC https://archive.today/OnIuA https://archive.today/Symxm https://archive.today/eKYQh 9
Zmiy Dojdey Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Obsidian should change this joke into one, that will ridicule Social Justice Warriors. SWJs love when some piece of content can be falsely interpreted as hatefull towards minorities. It gives them power to censor and to police. But they can't do nothing when THEY are the object of a joke because SWJs are not a minority group, they are totalitarian ideology. 5
Sherr Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads. People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices.
Azzer Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 1: It's not transphobic. It's mildly amusing though. 2: Being offended is something you are allowed to be. You have two solutions; Ignore the things you find offensive, or B: Be, and remain, offended. 3: I find censorship offensive, therefore censoring something would offend me. Is my offense at your desire to censor, less important than your offense at a mildly amusing poem? Also, below I will re-quote my reply in the other (now locked) thread. NOTE: The below was in response to somebody complaining on Twitter (Their twit handle is @icequeenerika), and not in response to the OP of this thread, so keep that in mind; The professionally offended sticking their snouts in again for that sweet-sweet satisfied feeling that they had POWER ("wow!") over a person/company by getting them to censor things they pretend to be offended about. And given this same offendotron that started this latest set of victimhood chasing offense has tweeted things like the below in recent months; "Now that I know how to file my nails to points I should turn them into weapons so I can #killallmen more effectively" "cis men. They don't get what really matters like usual" "generally it takes me at LEAST three tweets to work up to putting men in concentration camps" "me too, this one was just very funny because I literally could not give less of a **** about cis men talking about themselves" (for the laymen, "cis men" basically means born a man, identifies as a man, and this person hates them) I really don't think they have any actual interest in the results of this or any other censorship, other than some sort of powertripping twisted inner-glow because they influenced a person/company to do something on their say-so (and maybe earn those tainted SJW bonus points amongst their equally twisted "friends"). As always, it's just one big circle-jerking SJW powertrip over absolutely nothing, from a bunch of people that aren't even actually interested in the subject-matter at hand, who say and do far worse things to others all the time day in day out. Do not cave in to them - if you do, they'll start looking for more and more things to force you to censor (and force you to start apologising for things you should not be sorry for), and once you go there you are stuck appeasing this sociopathic minority forever. Being offended does not give you any rights. It simply means you are offended. Get over yourself. The world is not meant to wrap you up in a cosy blanket from everything, especially given that what is offensive to some can be the opposite to others, and vice-versa. 6
DrTuring Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads. People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices. It's the difference between allowing us the choice to not see all of this, ala a toggle to turn on/off backer content, and getting it forcibily removed from everyone. I would be fine with it if this just resulted in an option to toggle backer content. But not if it's just selectively taking out some because some people are offended by it. 1
sparklecat Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Since the other thread was closed by Tigraines, then I will quickly repeat: I do not think that the memorial should be changed. I dislike making such removals, because it seems like a knee-jerk reaction and smells of censorship. If we remove something on the basis that it is offensive/mean, then PoE's story is going to take major cuts. The story hints at rape, torture, etc. Do these also need to be removed? If Obsidian does change it, I think the back should be refunded. No sense in charging for something that was taken away. I do think this particular message should be changed, because it is quite offensive to suggest that sleeping with someone who turns out to be a trans woman is so horrific that you would kill yourself afterwards. If the joke here was that the dude slept with someone who turned out to be black come the next day and killed himself out of shame over doing so, I think the offensiveness would be much more clear. Regarding PoE's mature storylines, I think the difference is that torture, rape, etc., are being treated as serious subjects and not made light of; there's no suggestion that the behaviour is agreed with by Obsidian/condoned, you know? Which letting this message be in a game they published could certainly be taken as. 1
Blarghagh Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Please, elaborate on your complaint. I want to know exactly why you think this is transphobic. As far as I can tell it makes the straight guy look like a ridiculous drama queen, not insulting the transvestite or transgendered person - it looks like a more pro-trans sentiment than an anti-trans sentiment to me. Also, as someone who knows transvestites and transgenders and knows that these are by far not the same and in fact would find being compared incredibly insulting, not even attempting to differentiate the two in your complaint to me seems heterosexist and transphobic by itself, which is an irony of sorts. 15
Ikuti Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I hope Obisidian won't cave to pressure. I want Pillars of Eternity to be left out of this bull****. I don't want to be playing this agem for long hours with a feeling back in my head that this is another vicotry for those crazy people. Please Josh, as a fan of Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Fallout New Vegas, do what you said, leave disturbing things and make the game grim and interesting. Create what you want, don't do as people who think they are bigger than you scream at you over twitter. Go and create expansions and sequels and show the whole world that isometric RPGs are not dead. Don't give attention to those that are screaming for it. 2
Sakai Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 And Sawyer already bended over to them: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945 I wish I didn't back this game. PLEASE, Obsidian, don't cave in to these people. For the love of god. Lionhead took down an innocent tweet, and now this? These people don't care about you, they don't care about Pillars of Eternity, or about games in general. All they care about is being effended by everything. That's it. Don't give them what they want just because they shout loud enough. 4
averagedog Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I don't get it. How is this anti trans? I see 2 interpretations when I read it myself. 1. The man was drunk off his ass and went to bed with another man drunk off his ass. He woke up and realized when he did last night and couldn't live with himself because of a large possible pool of reasons. 2. The man was drunk off his ass and went to bed with another man that did identify as female or what have you. The man woke up, couldn't live with himself when he realized what he did and offed himself because of a large possible pool of reasons. In either case of thinking this through, this poem was clearly done at the MAN's expense, not the potentially homosexual or trans purrson. 2
halcy Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I do not understand this outrage over a game developer removing content that no sane company could ever want in their released product. I mean, Obsidian obviously scrubbed the backer content strings before release, that's just a given, removing things containing words like "n****r", excessive vulgarity, et cetera. That's just normal, and not something anybody complained about. This is just one case of a thing that should have been removed but wasn't caught, and is no different from anything that was removed, but suddenly, everybody is upset? Why is that? 3
Darji Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads. People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices. Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads. People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices. First of all it is Censorship and we never should do that at all. There is even a patch now which lets you remove the joke from the game and if you feel harmed by it then use that. But asking to censor something because you are offended is not the right way. Censor your own game but not the original game. Is it a dumb Joke? But it fits the universe. Its like a bard singing a stupid song in a tavern. Don't forget we are dealing in this world with homophobic, topics, rape, Murder and so on. It is not a pleasant world and everything should reflect this. Sp yes if you are sensitive and you can not deal with mature themes and even jokes than you should censor your game through mods. 1
NoDebate Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 "It was as if we had lost our senses... and sense of purpose as well. Instead of victory... being welcomed, there was silence - within and without." Heed the wisdom of Durance. Choose your battles. 1
Gonchi Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) Definitely keeping at eye on what Obsidian do. This is a worrisome trend lately, and I'm getting very, very tired of devs fueling it. Edited March 29, 2015 by Gonchi 1
Blarghagh Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Thread pruned. While I don't believe this lymerick was transphobic myself, the actual transphobia in this thread such as suggesting killing trans people or telling a transwoman to man up is absolutely out of line and will be removed and subject to warnings. Don't let it happen again. 5
averagedog Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 additionally, this could seriously be considered pro trans... I mean, that man could have literally killed himself because not only did he sleep with a guy that looked like a girl, but that person could have been "bigger" than him. The harm to his ego must have been massive if nothing else. 1
sparklecat Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 You know what else would be censorship? If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message." Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters. 2
deuxhero Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) Someone who literally preaches genocide and an actual neo-nazi should not have their demands met, much over a paying customer who spent $500 for goods that wouldn't be deliviered for over a year. In-fact, the fact that the backer paid for this makes for some very sketchy legality. Edited March 29, 2015 by deuxhero 1 Never negotiate. You will only encourage more acts of terror.
mekky Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I seriously hope the stone won't be removed. Seeing as it would already have been okayed by the team when it was included means there will be potential for future removal of content. That would mean that the pledge rewards lose their meaning and someone will not be given what they paid for. It's a shame my first post had to be about this, but removal of content in a finished game hasn't sat well with me since lbp removed that one bgm back in 2008. 3
Cpmartins Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Since the other thread was closed by Tigraines, then I will quickly repeat: I do not think that the memorial should be changed. I dislike making such removals, because it seems like a knee-jerk reaction and smells of censorship. If we remove something on the basis that it is offensive/mean, then PoE's story is going to take major cuts. The story hints at rape, torture, etc. Do these also need to be removed? If Obsidian does change it, I think the back should be refunded. No sense in charging for something that was taken away. I do think this particular message should be changed, because it is quite offensive to suggest that sleeping with someone who turns out to be a trans woman is so horrific that you would kill yourself afterwards. If the joke here was that the dude slept with someone who turned out to be black come the next day and killed himself out of shame over doing so, I think the offensiveness would be much more clear. Regarding PoE's mature storylines, I think the difference is that torture, rape, etc., are being treated as serious subjects and not made light of; there's no suggestion that the behaviour is agreed with by Obsidian/condoned, you know? Which letting this message be in a game they published could certainly be taken as. Even if it is, so what? It's fiction. It's not real life. The only valid complaint one could have is one of consistency. Do you think people living in that culture would be bothered by it? Does it make the world less coherent? If not then leave the joke. BTW it does not make the world less consistent. It fits perfectly in. Anyone find it extremely bizarre that the crazies get offended at this one little hidden thing, but not by the tree with all those people hanging on it? I'm not saying I am, I love the thematic implications on the thing. It gave me chills when I walked by it, counted the corpses, and later an NPC referenced it to me. 1 “Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed. “He once was alive, but now he’s dead. “The last woman he bedded, turned out a man “And crying in shame, off a cliff he ran.” Firedorn. Bard, transmysogynistic scatlord, skeleton.
Darji Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 You know what else would be censorship? If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message." Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters. YES Censorship is always evil. You never should censor the thought of an artist no matter how offending it is. That is how classic literature was established. It was always something very taboo back then., It dealt not only with heavy topics but also was very political at its times. It was approved by the team because they thought its totally fine and therefore it should stay in there. Again if you do not like it. There is a mod on twitter which will remove this joke. Use that . 4
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