Level Cap

[Hatred]

Yeah I believe the problem with PotD is more of a late game thing. Or so I hear. Haven't heard anything bad about early game PotD. I dont think early game Hard is an issue either. It is really defiance bay and beyond where things get silly. 75 really is quite high. I guess in PotD you would be forced to use consumables and enchant items. Would be nice.

[Smorensky]

That's why I recomend you try it out. I'm still not that far into the game so I can't be sure, but if what you mentioned about later content is true PoTD might just be the answer. If the content is indeed intended for a party of lvl lower than 12, the flat out 50% buff to most monster stats basically means you are fighting mobs of a much higher lvl, compared to hard diff. In that sense once you get to Defiance Bay and lvl up and gear up, things might even out for a while, untill you start encountering mobs intended for lvl 10+ at which point (if all my assumptions are true) the diff might start increasing instead of decreasing, but this is just speculation.

 

Can someone that is far enough into PoTD diff comment on this?

[Hatred]

 If you look into the other difficulty conversations people have. I have a strange feeling with how off topic I have ended up taking this that perhaps no one wants to read it >.<

[WatchOutIvan]

I created this account mostly to write this post, in the hope that it might be seen by a dev and added to the heap of feedback being collected for the game.

 

I'll get to my issue in a moment, but first and foremost I wanted to say that the game is fantastic, and that you've managed to deliver a satisfyingly high standard of story-telling, content, and immersion.  Well done, you've got a major following for this franchise now from cRPG fans.

 

Now on to the part that more or less ruined the game for me: the level cap.  It takes "immersion", kicks it down the stairs, and then curbstomps it outside in front of the neighbor's kids.  You built all this fantastic content, but I maxed out my exp at the beginning of Act 3?  I've hardly touched Twin Elms, or Od Nua.  There's so much depth here, but I barely want to touch it.  I'd rather re-start the game than finish it, simply because playing an RPG without the continued leveling and ability progression is hollow and uninteresting to me - and, quite frankly, many others.  And you should have known better.  It doesn't matter if the game caps out at level 12.  What matters is when you get to level 12.  Given your exp structure, you have more or less total control over the exp a player will have at any given point in the game.  This is a scaling issue - and with all the love and attention you put into the rest of this game, I will forgive you for completely biffing this core component of RPG gaming.  But please, please take note.  Listen to the community, acknowledge that you screwed it up, and make it better the next time around. 

 

Rant over, thanks for (presumably) listening.

[Hatred]

Hmm im looking through the forums atm. Apparently people arguing about non game related stuff is the flavour of the month right now. The teacup is so stormy that I don't think anyone will be getting any tea for a while.

[Taurus]

I have nothing against lvl cap, as long as you can only reach it by the end of the gane and by having done a lot of side quests, so the reward for fot lvling up seens right.

[Brimsurfer]

In BG, most characters were capped at level 7 or so and then the expansion TotSC raised the cap to 10 or so,  if I remember correctly,..... I could be a bit off since its been well over a decade or so since i played it.

 

I think allowing characters to level up to level 12 is very generous, seeing that PoE maps are considerably smaller than BG maps.

[Arctic]

In BG, most characters were capped at level 7 or so and then the expansion TotSC raised the cap to 10 or so,  if I remember correctly,..... I could be a bit off since its been well over a decade or so since i played it.

 

I think allowing characters to level up to level 12 is very generous, seeing that PoE maps are considerably smaller than BG maps.

 

it wasnt really a max lvl but a max xp, since not all classes level at the same rate in d&d 2nd edition. but in baldurs gate 1 you will never hit the lvl cap just by doing all quest and sidequest. it was needed intencional xp grinding.

 

For example, spaming rest in the werewolf area, were your rest was interrupted by 6-7 werewolfs worth 3ks xp each. (and even then you need to spam kill for 3-4 hours with a full party)

Edited April 4, 2015 by Arctic

[Lucinius]

Right, as others have said there was no real level cap in BG, but instead an experience cap. While they net the same result if the experience cap coincides with the level cap, they are vastly different, as we've seen, in a game like Pillars. The experience cap in Pillars far exceeds that of the level cap, even if you run a full party from the earliest moment possible. That is a sign of poor design, honestly. 

 

I understand why they used a level cap instead of an experience cap, however, as it makes encounter design a lot simpler and a lot less prone to the majority of players either face-rolling content all the time, or constantly running up against encounters they cannot beat. By using a shallow experience curve, however, they created a different problem in terms of power capping the player too early. 

 

So far I've only seen three real responses to the issue; lower the level cap, things are fine as is, and to modify the exp curve to be steeper. Raising (or removing) the level cap has been mentioned, but, imo, isn't a good fix as it would destroy the game balance. Lowering the cap is somewhat similar, in that it would make the later game more difficult (and there are a number of people who are finding hard and normal difficulties hard, even if we're not) but, imo, would also exacerbate the power capping problem. I feel the only reasonable solution is to modify the exp curve, as I've detailed before. It solves the power capping issue completely, smooths out the levelling curve to be more in tune with the encounters and pushes things to be slightly, but not overly, more difficult. 

 

Obviously, any such exp re-work is unlikely at this point, short of being part of an expansion (or more likely, a sequel), but I'm hopefully it may be something modders can work out in the future. Ideally, the entire curve would be moddable (so those who want lower levels could mod the curve so they hit, for example, level 8 shortly before the end of the game, and those of us who simply want a more gradual levelling curve could have it so we hit level 12 shortly before the end of the game).

 

Personally, as someone who's playing on Hard and finding it only slightly difficult (in part because for my first play-through I'm not being even close to min/maxing things, especially in terms of spell picks and party composition; I've just been going for party members I like and spells that sound fun -- my current party, for example, is a dual-wielding warrior pc, Eder, Aloth, Sagini, Pallagina, tank build, and Grieving Mother; no cleric at all) I've taken to using a table made for Cheat Engine to, essentially, create my own exp curve so that everyone in my party levels slower (I've been removing 30% of all experience gained). I'm on pace to still hit level 12 before the end of the game (potentially too much before, sadly, but we'll see), and I've had a full party from the moment I've hit Gilded Vale. 

[Epsilon Rose]

So far I've only seen three real responses to the issue; lower the level cap, things are fine as is, and to modify the exp curve to be steeper. Raising (or removing) the level cap has been mentioned, but, imo, isn't a good fix as it would destroy the game balance. Lowering the cap is somewhat similar, in that it would make the later game more difficult (and there are a number of people who are finding hard and normal difficulties hard, even if we're not) but, imo, would also exacerbate the power capping problem. I feel the only reasonable solution is to modify the exp curve, as I've detailed before. It solves the power capping issue completely, smooths out the levelling curve to be more in tune with the encounters and pushes things to be slightly, but not overly, more difficult. 

Two other possibilities:

D) Give us something else to spend XP on, beyond levels. Either let us use it to upgrade individual abilities, or invest it in items to either either upgrade them or give them enchantments without spending the full material cost, or let us use them to make/charge consumables. This would allow players to still benifit from XP without increasing their overall level. However, this would, at best, only slow power gain (with the exception of making consumables, which has it's own problems), so It might not be an ideal solution.

 

E) Make quests have behind the scenes consequences and/or make the passage of time matter. That way, if you rush the final boss, you'll be lower level, but he'll be weaker and less prepared. Converely, if you spend a lot of time getting to max level, he'll have bunch of adds and buffs and the dungeon to get to him will be tougher.

[Arctic]

 

So far I've only seen three real responses to the issue; lower the level cap, things are fine as is, and to modify the exp curve to be steeper. Raising (or removing) the level cap has been mentioned, but, imo, isn't a good fix as it would destroy the game balance. Lowering the cap is somewhat similar, in that it would make the later game more difficult (and there are a number of people who are finding hard and normal difficulties hard, even if we're not) but, imo, would also exacerbate the power capping problem. I feel the only reasonable solution is to modify the exp curve, as I've detailed before. It solves the power capping issue completely, smooths out the levelling curve to be more in tune with the encounters and pushes things to be slightly, but not overly, more difficult. 

Two other possibilities:

D) Give us something else to spend XP on, beyond levels. Either let us use it to upgrade individual abilities, or invest it in items to either either upgrade them or give them enchantments without spending the full material cost, or let us use them to make/charge consumables. This would allow players to still benifit from XP without increasing their overall level. However, this would, at best, only slow power gain (with the exception of making consumables, which has it's own problems), so It might not be an ideal solution.

 

E) Make quests have behind the scenes consequences and/or make the passage of time matter. That way, if you rush the final boss, you'll be lower level, but he'll be weaker and less prepared. Converely, if you spend a lot of time getting to max level, he'll have bunch of adds and buffs and the dungeon to get to him will be tougher.

 

 

pen an paper stile , we track the extra xp and for every 10.000 we create a new hability "Arctic's frozen blast!" xDD and add it by console command xDD (thats one of the coolest things in d&d, wasting money and time in cool things )

 

I have to say im still not able to mod new skills, i could try something with no visual effects but other things will be really hard ... or i could do an improved version of other spells ... like an x2 damage x 5 aoe  forst fog ... that could be a cool lvl 5-6 wizard spell xD

 

I also hope someone get to make avaliable all the enchantments for items and to enchant rings and those things. So much items mods in the game and we can only use the worst of them. (coolness wise at least)

Edited April 4, 2015 by Arctic

[Hatred]

 Gah. Trying to contact someone via twitter really is BS. How and why does anyone use this to communicate. I heard Josh actually replies to people sometime so I thought I would ask if the XP curve has a possible change incoming. Can't even tell if my question got out or it worked or w/e. Any of you more um 'modern' people able to check/ask yourselves or go to Tumblr ? *shivers*

[stiven]

Developer meeting:

"Hey you know what would be a great idea, a level cap of 12"

"Yeah! That way we can punish people who like to explore and clear every nook and cranny. Guys implement that right now!"

 

 

I just only entered Elms and hit the "magic" 12. Anyone got a lvl cap remover?

Agree. I Hit level cap in mid of 3th act.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

Developer meeting:

"Hey you know what would be a great idea, a level cap of 12"

"Yeah! That way we can punish people who like to explore and clear every nook and cranny. Guys implement that right now!"

 

 

I just only entered Elms and hit the "magic" 12. Anyone got a lvl cap remover?

Agree. I Hit level cap in mid of 3th act.

 

I haven't beaten the game yet, so how many acts are there?

[Sabin Stargem]

If I can offer a suggestion:  Add in the ability to "reincarnate" a character so that they can experience the world anew.  A character's level is dropped to 0, retaining the abilities that they had previously earned, and losing all XP that had been previously acquired.  This means that people can continuously reincarnate their characters, gaining a wider array of powers each time.  However, some things like stamina and health are tied to level - so there is a drawback if you go from a high level to a low one.

 

Masochistic people can keep their characters at low level and try to complete their game that way, while powergamers get to make their characters very strong, and hoarders continue to get use out of their XP.  I think that is a win-win.

[Epsilon Rose]

If I can offer a suggestion:  Add in the ability to "reincarnate" a character so that they can experience the world anew.  A character's level is dropped to 0, retaining the abilities that they had previously earned, and losing all XP that had been previously acquired.  This means that people can continuously reincarnate their characters, gaining a wider array of powers each time.  However, some things like stamina and health are tied to level - so there is a drawback if you go from a high level to a low one.

 

Masochistic people can keep their characters at low level and try to complete their game that way, while powergamers get to make their characters very strong, and hoarders continue to get use out of their XP.  I think that is a win-win.

I don't think that will work, since acuracy and deflection are also tied to level and a low level character won't be able to hit or dodge end-game enemies.

[vikke]

Imo, the problem isn't that level 12 is too low of a level cap, but that the experience required per level is too low. Currently, the formula is very simple, every level adds 1000 experience to a growing number tacked on, starting at 2000 when you hit level 2 and is added to the experience required to hit the previous level as shown here;

 

Level 2: 1000

Level 3: 3000 (1000+2000)

Level 4: 6000 (3000+3000)

Level 5: 10000 (6000+4000)

Level 6: 15000

Level 7: 21000

Level 8: 28000

Level 9: 36000

Level 10: 45000

Level 11: 55000

Level 12: 66000

 

The problem is fairly clear; the amount of experience required as you go up in levels simply doesn't increase enough. This leads to hitting the level cap comparatively early in the game. Now, this probably was done to give the player a constant feeling of progression/power increases.. except it actually hurts that very feeling when you cap out and the only way left to get more powerful is through items. My solution would be to keep the level cap at 12, but increase the amount of experience required to hit it. Something like this;

 

Level 2: 1000

Level 3: 3000 (1000+2000)

Level 4: 7000 (3000+4000)

Level 5: 13000 (7000+6000)

Level 6: 21000

Level 7: 31000

Level 8: 43000

Level 9: 57000

Level 10: 73000

Level 11: 91000

Level 12: 111000

 

Exact same formula, except instead of increasing the count by 1000, you do it by 2000. As such you almost, but not quite, double the experience required to go from level 11 to 12. Now, this may not work, as I don't know how much experience there is to actually acquire if you run a 6 person group from as soon as possible to the end of the game. But, I would wager it is actually higher than this amount if you were to explore most, if not every nook and cranny. As such hitting the level cap would come much later in the game and the player would retain the feeling of having something to work towards power-progression wise.

 

Honestly, in addition to this I would add a stat increase every 4 levels gained to further the idea of power progression to the player (so, by hitting the level cap you could add a total of 3 points to your attributes). It wouldn't increase the power level of the players enough to be un-balanced, but increases the feeling of having gotten more powerful/rewarded by a substantial amount, as well as giving the player the feeling they can redress some perceived short-falls in their character strengths. Still, this is secondary to the primary issue at hand.

 

This would be the best of both worlds. Obsidian please patch this in

[Blovski]

 

In BG, most characters were capped at level 7 or so and then the expansion TotSC raised the cap to 10 or so,  if I remember correctly,..... I could be a bit off since its been well over a decade or so since i played it.

 

I think allowing characters to level up to level 12 is very generous, seeing that PoE maps are considerably smaller than BG maps.

 

it wasnt really a max lvl but a max xp, since not all classes level at the same rate in d&d 2nd edition. but in baldurs gate 1 you will never hit the lvl cap just by doing all quest and sidequest. it was needed intencional xp grinding.

 

For example, spaming rest in the werewolf area, were your rest was interrupted by 6-7 werewolfs worth 3ks xp each. (and even then you need to spam kill for 3-4 hours with a full party)

 

In BG 1 You would *easily* hit the XP threshold by just doing quests + sidequests. I think I was at 250,000XP at the end of BG 1 + TOTSC on my most recent trilogy run with a full party of 6.

 

I think in BG 2 without TOB you would reliably hit the XP cap if you did everything IIRC.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Blovski

[vikke]

BG+TOTSC cap was 161k

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

Right, but are there actually 7th+ level spells in the game, or just in the GUI?

 

Add-ons dude.

 

Remember BG2 has 9th level spells but you couldn't reach level 9 (if i can remember well) : then they released ToB

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

 

In BG, most characters were capped at level 7 or so and then the expansion TotSC raised the cap to 10 or so,  if I remember correctly,..... I could be a bit off since its been well over a decade or so since i played it.

 

I think allowing characters to level up to level 12 is very generous, seeing that PoE maps are considerably smaller than BG maps.

 

it wasnt really a max lvl but a max xp, since not all classes level at the same rate in d&d 2nd edition. but in baldurs gate 1 you will never hit the lvl cap just by doing all quest and sidequest. it was needed intencional xp grinding.

 

For example, spaming rest in the werewolf area, were your rest was interrupted by 6-7 werewolfs worth 3ks xp each. (and even then you need to spam kill for 3-4 hours with a full party)

 

In BG 1 You would *easily* hit the XP threshold by just doing quests + sidequests. I think I was at 250,000XP at the end of BG 1 + TOTSC on my most recent trilogy run with a full party of 6.

 

I think in BG 2 without TOB you would reliably hit the XP cap if you did everything IIRC.

 

 

By soloing BG2 + ToB you could actually reach the level cap of ToB before facing the final boss of BG2 lol

[catmorbid]

Ah, Level Caps, my old nemesis. I definitely hope I'm not going to hit it, since for some reason it just takes a big chunk out of the game. At least that was what happened with Arcanum long time ago, although that was really just the least of that game's problems.

 

Anyway, I completely understand why Obsidian chose to use a level cap on POE, it's a practical way because of the game system they decided to create. Yes, it's entirely because of the game system being class and level reliant. On open-ended system like you have in Fallout or Arcanum even, level restrictions aren't that important becuse the system is designed to cope with that. Then again, if you allow infinite progression it will eventually remove any challenge at all. This is conincidentally also the biggest reason why one of the first mods you'll ever get on a Bethesda game is an exp progression SLOWER, since their open-ended system isn't really coping well with very high levels, which the characters will eventually be at on vanilla game.

 

Unfortunately the only really good answer to the level cap is something that was suggested before already: just make the level progression curve steeper. Any other solution would basically require either additional content or complete overhaul of the system. The former is unlikely since the expansion/sequel is planned, thus said content will be part of that, and the latter is certainly not going to happen.

 

Just use a x2000 multiplier instead of x1000 on the formula. Hell you could even go midway and use x1500. In case you're wondering the actual formula for exp required for level x is x*(x-1)/2*1000.

[LatisARG]

In my first run i got capped at lvl 9

 

66k points, fighter, hard.

 

 

I'm the only one or the patches just fix this?

 

Because the Adra dragon whipped my ass at that level.

 

Played on hard, 6 member party.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I hate level caps. Hopefully this can be changed in a future version. What you learn in life experiences is "capped" so why should it be in a game.

[LatisARG]

Why i can't reach other levels?

or i need less party members?

i want to take down that damn adra dragon!