SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[Shdy314]

That's an interesting assertion mrmonocle. Which dev told you that? Im wondering if its simply a miscommunication. Did someone think they were fixing a bug putting it back in? Who knows? None of us unless a dev decides to chime in.

[erragal]

All goes back to abstraction of a fantasy combat scenario to best represent logical outcomes.

 

It's obvious there's a subset of people interested in this game who have only ever fought anything in a virtual environment.

 

Spend a few hundred hours watching professional mma, boxing, fight a few martial arts matches yourself, hell go have a sit down conversation with a local SCA member.

 

You know what never works in a real fight? Running backwards while swinging a weapon weakly at the person chasing you. Biophysics and momentum are both against you in that regard.

 

There's a sentiment that combat in a fantasy conflict reproduction should be highly reactive. This just doesn't reflect what fighting is about at all. Tactics involve predicting what your opponent will do and -beating them to the spot-. Position is established in advance because changing position is a tell: you're giving the opponent the ability to predict your future position and telegraphing your intentions.

 

The poster who suggested Lol or Dota is on the right track: I would go play a bit of a moba. Smite isn't bad either. It'll allow you to realize how terrible your tactical mind is when 13 year old outsmart you and then you'll understand that you're not asking for the game to be more tactical...you just want it to be exploitable.

 

Oh and ty based Sawyer. I knew from your hardcore New Vegas mod that you understand what makes a great game. Keep doing what you do.

[Sensuki]

I think he's just making an assumption. As far as I know the slowing of recovery has not been spoken about at all. They don't publish a list of changes in patches, and probably deliberately too.

 

 

 

The poster who suggested Lol or Dota is on the right track: I would go play a bit of a moba. Smite isn't bad either. It'll allow you to realize how terrible your tactical mind is when 13 year old outsmart you and then you'll understand that you're not asking for the game to be more tactical...you just want it to be exploitable.

 

Oh and ty based Sawyer. I knew from your hardcore New Vegas mod that you understand what makes a great game. Keep doing what you do.

 

Who is this post aimed at? It doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion other than to say that you think kiting is derp. 

I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

Isnt this kind of good because it increases the value of character development choices that improve movement speed in combat? Without this, such talents and abilities are largely meaningless.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

But ... it doesn't?

You're not going to take Fast Runner to offset this penalty, because the difference it makes is well probably less than 50ms or something each time you move to the next target - if that. It's really unimpactful.

I actually am not sure that it makes fast moving worthwhile - I actually think it might be a negative - gonna test it.

 

Okay so, it's useless for movement based abilities, because after you make an attack, you go into recovery if you move you'll be slowed down from using that ability - so for Barbarian Wild Sprint, for example - you should NOT move until your recovery has ticked down and THEN you should move after Wild Sprint has ticked down, because you'll get to your destination faster than moving after you attack (and you'll have no recovery remaining because it's a no recovery ability) ROFL ROFL

How DUMB IS THAT LOL

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Shdy314]

@Sensuki

Erragal just wanted us to know how awesome he is because he knows all about "real" fighting. It wasn't anything but a humble brag.

[mutonizer]

I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.

It's a twitch game first and foremost though.

You can have all the tactical mastery you want on paper, fastest twitch will just overwhelm you every time by moving faster, reacting instantly and whatnot. Not saying there isn't a massive dose of tactical play added in and it's sometimes very impressive, but that's by far not the prominent aspect of it, unless all twitch skills are equal among allies/enemies.

Love watching pro people play it (like any twitch game really, bit like sport in a way) but I HATE playing twitch games personally

 

And I REALLY don't want PoE to get closer to DOTA and whatnot lol. Personal preference and all that, but the further away from it they can get, the happier I'll be.

[erragal]

Something else: It's important to keep in mind that deflection and reflexes defenses are numerical values designed to represent the ducking/diving/rolling/circling/foot by foot repositioning that occurs in micro moments during combat. That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It's not intended in pnp that players need to have 1 to 1 evasion of enemy attacks with mobility ; that is an exploit built into the IE engine which simply was not intended. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.

[Shevek]

It might be interesting to edit those abilities/talents to give them components which also reduce the recovery speed penalty (like shot on the run). So, someone affected by zealous charge that also has fast runner would have a negligible penalty. I dunno, I see this as an opportunity to make certain charactr development choices more meaningful.

[Shdy314]

That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.

Maybe if you spent more time fighting in virtual environments you'd know what you were talking about. PoE is not based on a pnp system though it certainly has a few DnD touchstones.

For example engagement is just attacks of opportunity in 3rd edition DnD and it is also impossible to take a move action and full attack(usually) in 3rd edition. Sound familiar?

[Luckmann]

But ... it doesn't?

 

You're not going to take Fast Runner to offset this penalty, because the difference it makes is well probably less than 50ms or something each time you move to the next target - if that. It's really unimpactful.

 

I actually am not sure that it makes fast moving worthwhile - I actually think it might be a negative - gonna test it.

 

Okay so, it's useless for movement based abilities, because after you make an attack, you go into recovery if you move you'll be slowed down from using that ability - so for Barbarian Wild Sprint, for example - you should NOT move until your recovery has ticked down and THEN you should move after Wild Sprint has ticked down, because you'll get to your destination faster than moving after you attack ROFL ROFL

 

How DUMB IS THAT LOL

 

That's exactly what I meant with the mechanic actually discouraging from things like Fast Runner. Why move at all? You just don't want to move. Whether it's 5% faster or 10% faster or 30% faster, you don't want to move. You may want to move before or after (although it's doubtful) but mostly you just don't want to move.

 

And if you're not moving, why the hell would you want Fast Runner (or like your example, Wild Sprint)?

 

Something else: It's important to keep in mind that deflection and reflexes defenses are numerical values designed to represent the ducking/diving/rolling/circling/foot by foot repositioning that occurs in micro moments during combat. That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It's not intended in pnp that players need to have 1 to 1 evasion of enemy attacks with mobility ; that is an exploit built into the IE engine which simply was not intended. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.

 

But this isn't a PnP-based or AD&D-based game. It's a real-time game built from the ground up to be a real-time game with pause.

 

Which is also why it's so jaw-dropping that they wouldn't build it around that fact, and instead try to build it like some pseudo-turn-based thing, like shoehorning turn-based issues into the game that were never a problem (as in, them not being there did not present issues) to begin with.

 

It's.. just.. if you're building a RTwP game, you should build a RTwP game, and try to make that the best possible RTwP game you can make. It's fundamentally backwards to build a real-time game with turn-based gameplay in mind unless you absolutely have to.

 

And the IE games had to. The IE games were great, but that fact did create some oddities. But PoE? PoE doesn't have to. PoE had complete freedom to make a real-time game built to be nothing but a real-time game.

 

By all counts, PoE should therefore be much better than the IE games, because the IE games were merely an interpretation of one thing superimposed upon a different format. But.. yeah. This.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[View619]

So, this will be removed in the IE mod yes? Or details on which file/line has the code so we can comment it out manually?

 

I understand that "PoE != IE game" but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Just focus on fixing the main issue (poor AI) and stop applying band-aid solutions.

 

=/

Edited March 19, 2015 by View619

[Baleros]

Does this effect enemies too?  Because if it does, it seems like it would have tactical implications more than just "waaa the tax for tea is too high for me!".  For instance, wouldn't abilities with knock backs be more interesting/critical? Or finding ways to force enemies in to having to move?

[Tartantyco]

 Why move at all? You just don't want to move. Whether it's 5% faster or 10% faster or 30% faster, you don't want to move. You may want to move before or after (although it's doubtful) but mostly you just don't want to move

 

And yet, we move.

[erragal]

I think he's just making an assumption. As far as I know the slowing of recovery has not been spoken about at all. They don't publish a list of changes in patches, and probably deliberately too.

 

 

 

 

 

Who is this post aimed at? It doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion other than to say that you think kiting is derp. 

I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.

At it again? Trying to downplay people's arguments with childish language. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

DotA has variable turn speeds for every character. So you are actually just lying if you've played that much. Turn speed affects your ability to change position and punishes you for over extension. It is very decidedly a movement penalty. Never mind animation speeds always being an issue. It's weird how easily you lie, exaggerate, and demean peoples point of view when you want something your way.

 

Have you considered counseling?

[Sensuki]

Ohhhh now I remember you

 

For those interested: Read this thread

 

DotA has variable turn speeds for every character. So you are actually just lying if you've played that much. Turn speed affects your ability to change position and punishes you for over extension. It is very decidedly a movement penalty.

Turn speed does not affect the recovery/attack speed of a unit. It only affects your ability to begin moving to the side or behind you from your current position (or turning to hit other targets).

 

I actually would not have complained if this game had turn speed/turning mechanics - but it doesn't. It would have been fun to run in circles around an Ogre who couldn't turn as fast as you.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

Ohhhh now I remember you

 

For those interested: Read this thread

Oh god, oh god. The sheer autism. It buuuuurns.

 

Turn speed does not affect the recovery/attack speed of a unit. It only affects your ability to begin moving to the side or behind you from your current position (or turning to hit other targets).

 

I actually would not have complained if this game had turn speed/turning mechanics - but it doesn't. It would have been fun to run in circles around an Ogre who couldn't turn as fast as you.

But Sensuki. That would be an exploit. We cannot have exploits. You cannot possibly use game mechanics in unintended ways in order to win encounters. We better just remove all mechanics that can possibly result in emergent gameplay. That'll show those nasty exploiters. Next time they'll have to use a trainer to cheat. Mwahahahaha.

 

 

*twirls mustache*

 

 

Edit: Seriously thought, that'd actually be great. I'm not a fan of DotA/2 at all, but there's a surprising amount of things you can learn by looking for input in non-standard locations.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[erragal]

 

That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.

 

Maybe if you spent more time fighting in virtual environments you'd know what you were talking about. PoE is not based on a pnp system though it certainly has a few DnD touchstones.

For example engagement is just attacks of opportunity in 3rd edition DnD and it is also impossible to take a move action and full attack(usually) in 3rd edition. Sound familiar?

It's certainly based on pnp combat abstraction principles.

 

Well aoo threat is completely different in that you could take aoos against anyone in your threat range instead of being limited by your engagement number. I actually prefer the PoE system because it's ludicrous to assume you can just whack whoever walks by you if your attention is on existing combatants.

 

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make about move + full attack. Please be more coherent?

 

And as for my virtual combat time...I know what you guys are talking about its how I know you want to exploit systems, not have a balanced game experience. Impassioned cognitive dissonance is still, ultimately, dissonant.

[Sensuki]

But Sensuki. That would be an exploit. We cannot have exploits. You cannot possibly use game mechanics in unintended ways in order to win encounters. We better just remove all mechanics that can possibly result in emergent gameplay. That'll show those nasty exploiters. Next time they'll have to use a trainer to cheat. Mwahahahaha.

 

 

*twirls mustache*

 

 

Edit: Seriously thought, that'd actually be great. I'm not a fan of DotA/2 at all, but there's a surprising amount of things you can learn by looking for input in non-standard locations.

THAT would be tactical - Slow Ogre with big hits, require you to micro your guys around so he has to turn around a lot or suffer b1g damage - makes you react to what he's doing

 

I'm sure some people would hate that.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[erragal]

Oh god, oh god. The sheer autism. It buuuuurns.

 

 

Turn speed does not affect the recovery/attack speed of a unit. It only affects your ability to begin moving to the side or behind you from your current position (or turning to hit other targets).

I actually would not have complained if this game had turn speed/turning mechanics - but it doesn't. It would have been fun to run in circles around an Ogre who couldn't turn as fast as you.

 

But Sensuki. That would be an exploit. We cannot have exploits. You cannot possibly use game mechanics in unintended ways in order to win encounters. We better just remove all mechanics that can possibly result in emergent gameplay. That'll show those nasty exploiters. Next time they'll have to use a trainer to cheat. Mwahahahaha.

 

*twirls mustache*

Edit: Seriously thought, that'd actually be great. I'm not a fan of DotA/2 at all, but there's a surprising amount of things you can learn by looking for input in non-standard locations.

Do you believe it helps your perception to accuse someone of having a development disorder and then negatively frame them for that disorder?

 

All it really does is display that you're not arguing in good faith. You have an emotional agenda and when points are presented that counter it you attempt to discredit the validity of the speaker by comparing them to someone you have deemed unreliable.

 

I'd suggest being more cognizant of how insensitive you come off. Anonymity isn't a reason to be so cruel. It's just showing off your true nature.

 

Emergent gameplay by the by, does not involve situations where the game systems have no capability to react. Infinite kiting in a numbers abstracted system will always favor the player because you're always going to be a step ahead.

[Sensuki]

I'd take your own advise there erragal - one only has to read the insults you put towards me in that thread to find that ironic.

[mutonizer]

I'm sure some people would hate that.

The concept? Sure, but other than that not really since they wouldn't have to do it themselves. Now if you HAVE to run around like that to defeat the Ogre in some kind of gimmicky fight, then yea, I'd probably stop playing because this is completely moronic.

 

And if turning speed was to be a factor, as I've said with other things (rest spamming, frontloading, etc), it'd be a huge mistake to try to add some artificial limitations to fight abuses of it. You do NOT need to fight against people who abuse systems, just do your thing the way you want and the best you can, stay coherent and let it go.

 

Trying to limit abuse of these mechanics is a waste of time in non competitive single player games as people will ALWAYS find the "other thing" to keep going and if they don't, they'll cheat or mod it anyway (which is 100% fine, this is a bloody single player game!!)

[Luckmann]

 

But Sensuki. That would be an exploit. We cannot have exploits. You cannot possibly use game mechanics in unintended ways in order to win encounters. We better just remove all mechanics that can possibly result in emergent gameplay. That'll show those nasty exploiters. Next time they'll have to use a trainer to cheat. Mwahahahaha.

 

 

*twirls mustache*

 

 

Edit: Seriously thought, that'd actually be great. I'm not a fan of DotA/2 at all, but there's a surprising amount of things you can learn by looking for input in non-standard locations.

THAT would be tactical - Slow Ogre with big hits, require you to micro your guys around so he has to turn around a lot or suffer b1g damage - makes you react to what he's doing

 

I'm sure some people would hate that.

 

 

I'm not sure if I would want it to require you to do that. I'm not saying it would be necessarily bad if it did, but I'm not sure I'd like it.

 

But gaining a hefty advantage for doing so wouldn't just be interesting, but apt. And that's really want it comes down to for me. Learning tactics, getting better at it, working out what to do. Solving the puzzle as it changes.

 

But by the definition that PoE appears to be using, that would no doubt be an exploit. Not because it breaks the game or trivializes an encounter, but because it even gives you an advantage. It is Sawyeran badwrongfun and you're playing it wrong-ness. Play it the right way, the exact right way and no other way, or you're playing it wrong and deserve to be punished, preferably by invisible instant attacks of undetermined origin.

 

Do you believe it helps your perception to accuse someone of having a development disorder and then negatively frame them for that disorder?

 

All it really does is display that you're not arguing in good faith. You have an emotional agenda and when points are presented that counter it you attempt to discredit the validity of the speaker by comparing them to someone you have deemed unreliable.

 

I'd suggest being more cognizant of how insensitive you come off. Anonymity isn't a reason to be so cruel. It's just showing off your true nature.

 

Emergent gameplay by the by, does not involve situations where the game systems have no capability to react. Infinite kiting in a numbers abstracted system will always favor the player because you're always going to be a step ahead.

Oh god, I haven't seen this level of strawmanned indignation and windmill-fighting self-importance since that one guy with the wolf avatar that pretended to be a god or whatever.

 

 

This is not my true nature. This is not even my final form. Watch out for my emotional agenda.

 

 

I'm not even anonymous. But I will endeavour to become more cognizant.

 

 

*spills all the spaghetti out of my fedoras*

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[Arctic]

Mmmm i see it like the full round attack vs the standard action attack + move action from d&d,  you still move in d&d but not without a reason ..

[Baleros]

....

And as for my virtual combat time...I know what you guys are talking about its how I know you want to exploit systems, not have a balanced game experience. Impassioned cognitive dissonance is still, ultimately, dissonant.

 

 

I'm new to these forums, but this seems to firmly hit the nail on the head.  A couple of weeks ago, I started lurking here in anticipation of the release of the game.  I was immediately put off at the incessant and whiny attempts at manipulation of the "codex" guys (someone on the PoE reddit site tipped me off that this was a thing).  Now, I just find it highly entertaining.  This dude Sensuki reminds me of that grumpy cat. 

 

I laughed so hard when he made a video of an "exploit" for no clipping, when a Dev had to post on their codex forum-- just to try to figure out how he managed to do it.  He must have gone out of this way to set up the perfect conditions to make his argument.  Conditions, that no normal game consumer would likely ever encounter, all in a weak attempt to support his vision of the game.  The cherry was then watching a dev try to tactfully explain to him that you are acting like a raging autistic, via a comment like "I hope you can enjoy the game when it releases!".

 

Edit:  Also, the bit at the end of the video "I WILL FIGHT AGAINST THIS!" LMAO

Edited March 19, 2015 by Baleros