SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[Sensuki]

He actually has a fair point, although it's one I pointed out too - units that have fast attacks suffer more when moving because they are losing actions faster than characters with longer recovery. I don't see that as a problem though as I find it's a better trade-off than punishing movement in general.

 

It's also a pretty universal law in real-time games where units attack faster.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Quantics]

Since this penalty acts as an actual multiplier to your recovery time total, rather than being additive like most other boni and mali are, you are exponentially more penalized the slower your total recovery time is. 

It's a good change imho that gives an incentive to build actual nimble characters as mobile fighters, ie someone equipped with leather and daggers vs someone equipped with a two handed sword and plate.

 

I'm not sure 'exponential' is the word you were looking for...

Edited March 20, 2015 by Quantics

[GreyZ]

 

Since my previous posts seems to have been glanced over, I'll just reiterate:

While this is an overall nerf, it is mainly a nerf directed at slow recovery/high damage melee characters, because they were technically more mobile then high recovery/low damage characters. 

Due to recovery times a rogue for example with a 2handed weapon was tactically a much more mobile character then a dual wielding dagger rogue, since if micro'd properly he could move a significant distance between attacks without incurring any dps loss, while a character with a very fast recovery rate could barely move without incurring dps loss.

 

Since this penalty acts as an actual multiplier to your entire recovery time, rather than being additive like most other boni and mali are, you are exponentially more penalized the slower your recovery time is and the longer you are incurring the timer. 

It's a good change imho that gives an incentive to build actual nimble characters as mobile fighters.

 

...

 

I honestly don't know what to say.

 

I realize that most people don't want to read a fourteen-page thread, but at least glance through the first few and the last few.

 

 

apologies, it's a long thread, I read a number of posts, but I possibly glanced over a few I should have read

 

He actually has a fair point, although it's one I pointed out too - units that have fast attacks suffer more when moving because they are losing actions faster than characters with longer recovery. I don't see that as a problem though.

Right and so the way I see it is:

I can build a fighter with lets say a big two  handed sword and little in recovery bonus. The way I would use that fighter on a micro level is to move him short distances between targets, to minimize the movement recovery penalty I would incur, ie I would not try to move him from the front to the enemies rear and instead move him short hops

 

If I wanted a striker type of character to cross large distances on the battlefield I would use a leather+dual dagger person.

 

I really dont think it's a too bad system, since the multiplier can easily be fine tuned based on the average engagement distance you have in PoE (since at the most the party rear and the enemy rear will rarely be more than 30m apart due to distance of ranged weapons)

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[Sensuki]

Yeah, you're right that it does basically lead to the opposite scenario - suddenly it's the characters with slow attacks that shouldn't move much and it's not a big deal for the faster attacking characters.

I prefer no penalties though as it's a nerf to the style of mobile characters in general.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Doxy]

 

Suggesting that IE mod gets heavy promotion after release. At the very least, players will have the option to avoid some poor design decisions.

 

As it stands, I'll probably just wait until the IE mod gets released before I even start playing. There's some really basic functions in it that just shouldn't be missing from the base game. I won't be removing Engagement, for example, but fixing the moving recovery rate, autosave before transitions, cyan NPC circles (seriously, this has to be one of the dumbest things, having neutrals and allies in the same colour for no reason whatsoever), etc.

 

Before I even boot up the first game, the IE Mod will be there and I'll fix the Attributes myself if I can.

 

After playing POE with IE Mod i second this. So many simple things that should be in from the start...

Triple bow to Sensuki.

[Sensuki]

Doxy have you tried Karkarov's custom HUD ?

 

I can't believe how much it adds to the 'feel' of the game.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Quantics]

I can't believe how much it adds to the 'feel' of the game.

 

I agree. I must say I had really underestimated the importance of UI art...

Edited March 20, 2015 by Quantics

[Doxy]

Doxy have you tried Karkarov's custom HUD ?

 

I can't believe how much it adds to the 'feel' of the game.

Yeah i've tried it and i'll be using it on the 26th or whenever you update IE to work with release version

[View619]

 

 

Suggesting that IE mod gets heavy promotion after release. At the very least, players will have the option to avoid some poor design decisions.

 

As it stands, I'll probably just wait until the IE mod gets released before I even start playing. There's some really basic functions in it that just shouldn't be missing from the base game. I won't be removing Engagement, for example, but fixing the moving recovery rate, autosave before transitions, cyan NPC circles (seriously, this has to be one of the dumbest things, having neutrals and allies in the same colour for no reason whatsoever), etc.

 

Before I even boot up the first game, the IE Mod will be there and I'll fix the Attributes myself if I can.

 

After playing POE with IE Mod i second this. So many simple things that should be in from the start...

Triple bow to Bester, Kakarov, Sensuki.

 

 

 

FTFY

[tdphys]

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

There's no need for melee movement recovery damping because the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive. QED

 

I like the slow debuff after running for a while idea.  If you really wanted to be harsh you could start applying *stamina* reduction after long bouts of running in combat.

[GreyFox]

What is the Fog of War bug?

[Luckmann]

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

There's no need for melee movement recovery damping because the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive. QED

 

I like the slow debuff after running for a while idea.  If you really wanted to be harsh you could start applying *stamina* reduction after long bouts of running in combat.

I disagree. The mechanic was introduced specifically to deal with kiting. It fails at that, which Sensuki showcases.

 

But you are entirely correct that the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive, and as several others have pointed out, adding this to the already constipated combat movement to the game really doesn't add (or detract, as it is) anything that Engagement hasn't already affected.

 

But the mechanic was created specifically to deal with kiting. And it doesn't. All other discussions as to it's merits or lack thereof are purely academic, since the mechanic fails at it's most basic intended function.

[Sensuki]

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

It's not because ranged kiting is the type of real-world scenario (as in what is most likely to occur in game) that is probably going to happen. Why on earth would you kite in a system with melee engagement, or even recovery time.

 

I've tested with no engagement, and kiting with melee is just dumb, because when you turn around to attack, the melee enemy you're kiting will just hit you back.

 

I don't need to provide examples of melee kiting melee because it just does not occur. The movement penalty penalizes legitimate non-kiting melee movements.

 

 

 

What is the Fog of War bug?

 

Here's one example

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[GreyZ]

 

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

There's no need for melee movement recovery damping because the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive. QED

 

I like the slow debuff after running for a while idea.  If you really wanted to be harsh you could start applying *stamina* reduction after long bouts of running in combat.

I disagree. The mechanic was introduced specifically to deal with kiting. It fails at that, which Sensuki showcases.

 

But you are entirely correct that the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive, and as several others have pointed out, adding this to the already constipated combat movement to the game really doesn't add (or detract, as it is) anything that Engagement hasn't already affected.

 

But the mechanic was created specifically to deal with kiting. And it doesn't. All other discussions as to it's merits or lack thereof are purely academic, since the mechanic fails at it's most basic intended function.

 

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical). As per prior examples it's really a balancing mechanism between different melee archetypes,since it incentives highly mobile character to wear light arms and armor, while encouraging short bursts of movement for heavy arms and armor character, since fast recovery characters are far less penalized than slow recovery characters in this new system.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[tdphys]

 

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

It's not because ranged kiting is the type of real-world scenario (as in what is most likely to occur in game) that is probably going to happen. Why on earth would you kite in a system with melee engagement, or even recovery time.

 

I've tested with no engagement, and kiting with melee is just dumb, because when you turn around to attack, the melee enemy you're kiting will just hit you back.

 

I don't need to provide examples of melee kiting melee because it just does not occur. The movement penalty penalizes legitimate non-kiting melee movements.

 

 

 

 

Yes,  I agree with you completely... almost regardless of mechanics melee kiting is absurd, and thus non-ranged movement penalty is absurd.

 

OBS must agree somewhat, because the code has ranged based movement penalty.  Unfortunately, it still has general movement based penalty to recovery.

 

The only dev argument on the board has been that "movement based recovery penalty stops kiting".  

 

The answer is "there is no melee kiting at all,  please remove general movement recovery damping and leave in the ranged recovery damping if you must ASAP "

 

Instead, we have " I can still kite at ranged " ... which is counterproductive, because we already know their opinion about that, and they'll move heaven and hell to try and stop it.   Fight the winnable battle first.   Melee movement based recovery damping is bad, of no use, limiting, sucks.  Get it out.  

 

I'll  even write the code:

change 

 

float movingRecoveryMult = AttackData.Instance.MovingRecoveryMult;

 

changes to

 

float movingRecoveryMult = 1.0;

 

easy fix.

 

Stick with your message

Edited March 20, 2015 by tdphys

[Luckmann]

 

 

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

There's no need for melee movement recovery damping because the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive. QED

 

I like the slow debuff after running for a while idea.  If you really wanted to be harsh you could start applying *stamina* reduction after long bouts of running in combat.

I disagree. The mechanic was introduced specifically to deal with kiting. It fails at that, which Sensuki showcases.

 

But you are entirely correct that the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive, and as several others have pointed out, adding this to the already constipated combat movement to the game really doesn't add (or detract, as it is) anything that Engagement hasn't already affected.

 

But the mechanic was created specifically to deal with kiting. And it doesn't. All other discussions as to it's merits or lack thereof are purely academic, since the mechanic fails at it's most basic intended function.

 

 

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical). As per prior examples it's really a balancing mechanism between different melee archetypes,since it incentives highly mobile character to wear light arms and armor, while encouraging short bursts of movement for heavy arms and armor character, since fast recovery characters are far less penalized than slow recovery characters in this new system.

 

 

No.

 

No.

 

NO.

 

What I said is not open for interpretation. It is not my personal opinion. It is not subjective. God. Damn. It.

 

The movement recovery penalty has everything to do with kiting because that's it's stated ****ing purpose!

 

It is not "really a balancing mechanism". It does not "incentives highly mobile character to wear light arms and armor" and it does not "encourage short bursts of movement for heavy arms and armor character", the latter two which have been addressed as points. Extensively.

 

And yes! It's nonsensical! That's my entire point! There's 15 pages of that point!

Edited March 20, 2015 by Luckmann

[tdphys]

 

 

Sensuki...

 

Your first post is about action recovery damping with melee movement. 

 

most (All?) of your counterexamples are kiting with ranged attacks.  This is counterproductive.

 

There's no need for melee movement recovery damping because the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive. QED

 

I like the slow debuff after running for a while idea.  If you really wanted to be harsh you could start applying *stamina* reduction after long bouts of running in combat.

I disagree. The mechanic was introduced specifically to deal with kiting. It fails at that, which Sensuki showcases.

 

But you are entirely correct that the engagement system makes melee kiting punitive, and as several others have pointed out, adding this to the already constipated combat movement to the game really doesn't add (or detract, as it is) anything that Engagement hasn't already affected.

 

But the mechanic was created specifically to deal with kiting. And it doesn't. All other discussions as to it's merits or lack thereof are purely academic, since the mechanic fails at it's most basic intended function.

 

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical). As per prior examples it's really a balancing mechanism between different melee archetypes,since it incentives highly mobile character to wear light arms and armor, while encouraging short bursts of movement for heavy arms and armor character, since fast recovery characters are far less penalized than slow recovery characters in this new system.

 

 

Seems like overkill to me.   Do you know what the input is to modify movement based recovery damping ?  Is it stats?  Is it talents/feats ? Fixed to class?

 

And especially,

 

Can you get a positive modifier on it, so that it can "encourage"  battle movement rather then discourage it.

 

If it's all negative, then thats a bad bit of PR for a game that's already restricting movement via engagement rules.

[Sensuki]

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical).

That's what they said it was implemented for, yeah. I'm as surprised as you are, tbh.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71271-slowed-recovery-while-moving-no-thanks/page-11?do=findComment&comment=1588332

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Why not punish movement altogether, harshly?

 

You move, you die!

 

*Disintegrate. No saving throw. Poof!*

[GreyZ]

nm

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[Voss]

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical). As per prior examples it's really a balancing mechanism between different melee archetypes,since it incentives highly mobile character to wear light arms and armor, while encouraging short bursts of movement for heavy arms and armor character, since fast recovery characters are far less penalized than slow recovery characters in this new system.

 

 

 

Er, no.  First off, it has everything to do with kiting, because that is the stated purpose.

 

Second, it does no such things for different melee types.  Once they are engaged, nobody wants to move, Unless they're wielding reach weapons (pikes, quarterstaves), a 'highly mobile' character must be just as static as a tank for as long as the engaging enemies live. Combat stops dead once people start fighting in melee, and movement is no longer a reasonable option once this happens.  Which makes mobile melee archetypes effectively an oxymoron in PoE.  

[GreyZ]

 

The movement recovery penalty has very little to do with kiting (if that was the intention, it really would be nonsensical).

That's what they said it was implemented for, yeah. I'm as surprised as you are, tbh.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71271-slowed-recovery-while-moving-no-thanks/page-11?do=findComment&comment=1588332

 

 

Thanks, I had not seen that one. If this was truly the only intention, the implementation really makes no sense. If someone actually put some thought into balancing different recovery times than I can see reasoning behind this implementation.

[GreyZ]

 

Er, no.  First off, it has everything to do with kiting, because that is the stated purpose.

 

Second, it does no such things for different melee types.  Once they are engaged, nobody wants to move, Unless they're wielding reach weapons (pikes, quarterstaves), a 'highly mobile' character must be just as static as a tank for as long as the engaging enemies live. Combat stops dead once people start fighting in melee, and movement is no longer a reasonable option once this happens.  Which makes mobile melee archetypes effectively an oxymoron in PoE.  

 

Actually I move melee combatants around quite frequently, to apply debuffs and interrupts when necessary.

I mean a warrior with right abilities and talents can engage 4 enemies, often leaving other melee combatants to move as they see fit. So you totally have the ability to sick your more mobile strikers on rear enemies.

You can micro around engagement quite easily, hell I even use ranger pets for that purpose a lot (since they arent really good at much else ).

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[GreyFox]

Oh THAT AI/Fog of War bug....might be the most IE like feature they've implemented.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyFox

[Sensuki]

Not all enemies did that though. Icewind Dale & Heart of Winter had quite a few heat seeking enemies.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki