Which Attributes for which class? And how high?

[Voss]

I am also interested in your thoughts about what attributes are good for Chanters in particular. I assume that INT is most important attribute to increase the duration of chants. And obviously Might would improve any damaging Invocations. But what about any less obvious benefits?

Most particularly:

1.      Will Might increase the chant healing effect?

2.      Will any attributes improve our summons?

1) it should

2) Int should keep them around longer (though end of combat usually happens first).  Statwise, I haven't seen anything that indicates this.

[Kordanor]

 

- That Dex is not particularly useful, especially for those wearing heavy armour. Is such the case? When it says it increases attack speed 3%, it suggests a 3% DPS increase on account of attacking faster. (eg. 3 second attack @ 0 Dex  = 4 attacks in 12 seconds vs. 2 second attack at 11 Dex (33%) = 6 attacks in 12 seconds).

It basically comes down to my explanation I did before, that it is not multiplicative but additive. The problem is, that it adds on top of armor.

So lets assume you have 1 second hit and 1 second Cooldown. Now go for the most extreme case, that you are wearing plate armor. This would make it a 1 second hit and 1,5 second cooldown. Now as the bonus is not multiplicative the 0,5s already added by plate armor is not affected by the boost. Instead it is 1s animation modified by 33% of the speed and 1s cooldown modified by -50%+33%=-17%

 

 

- That the benefits of Perception or Resolve are not as useful as those gained from other stats/

True, mostly tank attributes from what I have seen so far (not played the game myself yet, so I cant say for sure how worthy concentration or will saves are, but most experienced players say it's not important.

 

 

- That constitution is mostly beneficial for high base HP classes since it increases by %, not integer.

Partially true. It gives a bigger bonus there, yes. But I wouldn't go with high base HP classes, but instead go with tank classes. As DDs should not be attacked in any case. So even a barbarian who is not ideal for tanking for other reasons might not push con a lot. Simply because he is not going to be attacked if you play him "right". There is no use of high con. If you played MMX for example you might remember the Dwarf Tank class. MMX had the design flaw to design a tank class without tanking mechanic so all damage was spread equally. So while your other people were already dead, your tank happily jumped around with 50% of his hitpoints. There is no use of that.

 

 

- That might is the go-to stat for DPS/Healing

Yep.

 

 

- And that all stats will present unique dialogue options over the course of the game.

Yep. Probably not equally (like Con) but nobody will be able to say for sure until they finished the game.

 

 

What kind of stats should I consider for a Druid PC? I would like to mix it up with shapeshift melee and some CC/Heals/AoE spells.

I think it depends on what you want to focus on. Shapeshifting already can be quite diverse. All I can say is that I'd neglect Con for sure because you will not tank, and Resolve as everyone says that you don't need a high concentration value. You will want to max out Int for sure.

[Taverius]

 

Is Might still useful for a pistol cipher? Or is it worth trading it for something like resolve for dialogue options...

It is mighty useful with high dmg weapons - it gives a +% so it scales with damage nicely (+30% out of 50 is much better than +30% out of 10).

 

Also useful for all your damaging cipher skills. Might is king for damage classes

 

 

Actually, its the other way around.

 

 

Examples with made-up numbers:

 

55 base DMG vs 10 DR = 45 DMG

 

55*1.33 DMG vs 10 DR = 63 DMG = 40% DMG increase.

 

 

15 base DMG vs 10 DR = 5 DMG

 

15*1.33 DMG vs 10 DR = 10 DMG = 100% DMG increase.

 

 

The lower your per-hit damage, and the higher your enemies DR, the more might becomes disproportionately powerful.

[Cronstintein]

I am also interested in your thoughts about what attributes are good for Chanters in particular. I assume that INT is most important attribute to increase the duration of chants. And obviously Might would improve any damaging Invocations. But what about any less obvious benefits?

 

An idea I saw recently, and tried out, is a chanter-tank.  So max out PER and RES, tertiary INT and don't tank CON.  Works pretty good (the Moon-Godlike heal has good synergy) because the chants go well with front lining. 

 

The spell-effects won't be maxed out since you're not focusing on MIG and INT but if you focus on CC, buff/debuff and summons, you can get good spell results as well as a good tank.

[Luckmann]

 

I am also interested in your thoughts about what attributes are good for Chanters in particular. I assume that INT is most important attribute to increase the duration of chants. And obviously Might would improve any damaging Invocations. But what about any less obvious benefits?

 

An idea I saw recently, and tried out, is a chanter-tank.  So max out PER and RES, tertiary INT and don't tank CON.  Works pretty good (the Moon-Godlike heal has good synergy) because the chants go well with front lining. 

 

The spell-effects won't be maxed out since you're not focusing on MIG and INT but if you focus on CC, buff/debuff and summons, you can get good spell results as well as a good tank.

 

 

Chanters are well-known amongst Beta Backers to make excellent tanks. Sounds weird, but they're great.

[Voss]

 

 

Is Might still useful for a pistol cipher? Or is it worth trading it for something like resolve for dialogue options...

It is mighty useful with high dmg weapons - it gives a +% so it scales with damage nicely (+30% out of 50 is much better than +30% out of 10).

 

Also useful for all your damaging cipher skills. Might is king for damage classes

 

 

Actually, its the other way around.

 

 

Examples with made-up numbers:

 

55 base DMG vs 10 DR = 45 DMG

 

55*1.33 DMG vs 10 DR = 63 DMG = 40% DMG increase.

 

 

15 base DMG vs 10 DR = 5 DMG

 

15*1.33 DMG vs 10 DR = 10 DMG = 100% DMG increase.

 

 

The lower your per-hit damage, and the higher your enemies DR, the more might becomes disproportionately powerful.

 

No.  It gives a greater percentage increase.  It doesn't give you more actual damage.  +18 dmg per swing matters a lot more than +5.

Per the made up numbers, case 1 takes 5 swings to kill an enemy with 200 endurance.  case 1a takes 4 swings

case 2 takes 40 swings to kill the same enemy, case 2a still takes 20 swings to kill that guy. 

Percentage wise? Fantastic.  Actually being in combat with the enemy swinging back?  case 2a is still really miserable.

 

For a cipher too, more damage=more focus back.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Voss

[Sayanara]

 

 

I am also interested in your thoughts about what attributes are good for Chanters in particular. I assume that INT is most important attribute to increase the duration of chants. And obviously Might would improve any damaging Invocations. But what about any less obvious benefits?

 

An idea I saw recently, and tried out, is a chanter-tank.  So max out PER and RES, tertiary INT and don't tank CON.  Works pretty good (the Moon-Godlike heal has good synergy) because the chants go well with front lining. 

 

The spell-effects won't be maxed out since you're not focusing on MIG and INT but if you focus on CC, buff/debuff and summons, you can get good spell results as well as a good tank.

 

 

Chanters are well-known amongst Beta Backers to make excellent tanks. Sounds weird, but they're great.

 

That is really surprising. Can you elaborate on how their mechanics work for tanking? I'd like to try it.

[Kordanor]

The first case is better, because he made up the numbers. But his math is correct.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Kordanor

[Kordanor]

You could actually do it the other way around and make a even more extreme example.

 

11 dmg vs 10 DT = 1 dmg

Lets say he does 100 hits in a minute = 100 dmg.

 

20 dmg vs 10 DT = 10 dmg.

Lets say he does 10 hits in a minute = 100 dmg.

 

Increase the first dudes damage by 100% and he ends up with

22 dmg vs 10 DT = 12 dmg -> 1200 dmg in a minute

while the second one:

40 dmg vs 10 DT = 30 dmg -> 300 dmg.

 

Same goes with Damage Reduction like with Stilettos. With these weapons you do small base damage, but hit often. But that means that the damage reduction is worth a lot more than with slower weapons which have a higher base damage.

[Judicator]

Scratch that, peception and resolve are mandatory for tanking since they both give deflection.

[Voss]

The first case is better, because he made up the numbers. But his math is correct.

The math is correct.  The conclusion isn't.

 

 Average damage for a fast weapon:13.5 *1.33= 18

 Average damage for a two handed weapon: 23.5 *1.33= 31

 

Against a DR4 enemy, 14 per hit vs 27 per hit.

Against a DR 12 enemy, 6 per hit vs 19 per hit.

Assume an enemy with 50 endurance.

DR4:  4 hits, vs 2 hits

DR12: 9 hits vs 3 hits.

 

Might is worse on low damage hits against higher DR.

[Taverius]

That's only true if the total attack cycle time for both situations is the same.

 

If dual-wielding is in any way competitive for a striker - and it is - the higher your might, the smaller the gap to 2h gets, because it simply gets a greater dps increase than a 2-handed attack cycle for the same might.

 

It similarly benefits weapons that don't have DR reduction more than ones that do, so if there's 2 weapons, one with DR reduction and one without that are not a clear-cut choice, the higher your might the more attractive the one without DR reduction gets.

 

I wasn't really responding to the Cypher part of the question that started what I was replying to - its a no-brainer that you want to do the higher-possible damage per hit with a Cypher weapon, since you want to spend as much time as possible using your abilities instead.

[Voss]

That's only true if the total attack cycle time for both situations is the same.

 

If dual-wielding is in any way competitive for a striker - and it is - the higher your might, the smaller the gap to 2h gets, because it simply gets a greater dps increase than a 2-handed attack cycle for the same might.

Well yes.  Given the recovery timers, against that DR4 enemy, two weapon is entirely viable (but two handed certainly isn't bad either).

Against that DR12 enemy?  Pretty poor, unless you pull out stilettos, maces and/or vulnerable attack. (though notably a twohander with an estoc and vulnerable attack brings it down in 2 hits)

 

Honestly, I view 2 weapon and 2 handed to be equally viable in general, as long as you have awareness of DR and ways to bypass it.  Specific situations favor one or the other, but it isn't really necessary in most cases to swap between them. 

[Kordanor]

 

The first case is better, because he made up the numbers. But his math is correct.

The math is correct.  The conclusion isn't.

 

 Average damage for a fast weapon:13.5 *1.33= 18

 Average damage for a two handed weapon: 23.5 *1.33= 31

 

Against a DR4 enemy, 14 per hit vs 27 per hit.

Against a DR 12 enemy, 6 per hit vs 19 per hit.

Assume an enemy with 50 endurance.

DR4:  4 hits, vs 2 hits

DR12: 9 hits vs 3 hits.

 

Might is worse on low damage hits against higher DR.

 

This is not true due to the increased attack speed. Which should be according to a post of Sensuki:

Dual with fast weapons:

20 Frames animation + 24 frames recovery per weapon. So 44 Frames per Strike

vs

2H weapon:

30 frames animation + 54 frames recovery. So 84 frames per Strike.

 

The average Damage for fast 1h weapons is: 10-15=>25/2=12.5

The average damage for a 2h weapon is: 17-24=>41/2=20.5

 

Now lets hit against the DR4 target:

The fast weapon will hit for 8.5 

The 2h weapon will hit for 16.5 

 

Let's just assume the target has 1000 hitpoints. Thats

2X1H: 117.65 individual Strikes taking 44 frames each -> 5176,47 frames

2H: 60,61 Strikes taking 84 frames each -> 5090,91 frames

 

So in this case the 2h weapon kills the opponent faster.

 

Now lets increase the damage by 33%

 

The fast weapon will hit for 12.5*1,33=16,63

The 2h weapon will hit for 20.5*1,33=27,27

 

Against 4 DR:

Fast 1H: 12,63

2H: 23,27

 

Time for 1000 HP

Fast 1H: 79,21 strikes - > 3485,15 frames

2H: 42,98 strikes -> 3610,57 frames

 

So the 2 X 1h weapons outperformed the 2H weapon due to the might boost.

 

And it should be even more extreme in the example of 12 DR, however I will take 10 DR instead as 12 DR will mess in calculations with the min damge of 1h weapons.

 

10 DR without Might boost:

2 X 1H Fast: 12,5 dmg -10 DR = 2,5 dmg

1000 / 2,5 = 400 strikes -> 400 x 44 = 17600 frames

 

1 X 2H: 20,5 dmg -10 DR = 10,5 dmg

1000 / 10,5 = 95,24 strikes -> 95,24 x 84 = 8000 frames

 

So the 2h weapon is MUCH faster without the might boost. More than twice as fast

 

Now add in the 33% might:

2 X 1H Fast: 16,63 dmg -10 DR = 6,63 dmg

1000 / 6,63 = 150,94 strikes -> 150,94 x 44 = 6641,51 frames

 

1 X 2H: 27,3 dmg -10 DR = 17,27 dmg

1000 / 17,27 = 57,92 strikes -> 57,92 x 84 = 4865,33 frames

 

So the 2H weapon is still faster, but the might boost gave the 2X1H a huge damage boost and it become pretty close to the 2H time.

 

So while the 2h weapon reduced the time via the boost to 61% of the original time, 2X 1H weapons reduced the time via the boost down to 38% of the original speed.

 

And if you add in more and more damage boosts at some point the 2X 1H will surpass the 2H weapon. Which would not be the case if the 2H weapon would receive a bigger advantage by might. As in this case the gap would become bigger and bigger.

 

One big advantage the 2H will have though, is that special abilities will do more damage as they most probably only use one of the 1h weapons. So in that case the 2H weapon will always do more damage, and of course have a bigger profit from might.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Kordanor

[flashedarling]

Given what I've read in this thread it sounds like a cipher could completely dump CON and PER with RES being optional as  roleplaying choice. Any problems with going below 10 for these dump stats? For example could I go crazy with like 5 Con and use the extra points to max out MIG, going complete glass cannon?

[astroice]

There is just way too much math in this thread!  Lets tone it down yall!

[Taverius]

There is just way too much math in this thread!  Lets tone it down yall!

 

Hah.

 

I'm getting flashbacks to when I played EVE, and not good ones.

 

Anyway, as a generic pronouncement:

 

• The higher your might and the more % damage bonuses you stack, the more you want to be looking at dual-wielding.
• If you get most of your DMG bonuses as 1-hit activated abilities, it favors 2h, if its modals and passives, it probably favours dual-wielding.
• The lower your might and the amount of stacking damage bonuses you get, the more you want to look at weapons with DR reduction, and vice-versa.

I still need to look at dexterity, but from what I understood from Sensuki's vids, the pronouncement that its only good on no-armor classes seems rubbish.

[Fardragon]

Can you duel wield pistols?

[Luckmann]

Can you duel wield pistols?

No. All ranged weapons are two-handed.

 

Unfortunately.

 

I would not mind having twice the reload time if I could just fire two pistols, or have a pistol and a sword.

[Taverius]

I would not mind having twice the reload time if I could just fire two pistols, or have a pistol and a sword.

 

 

Having played with a (replica) flint-lock pistol I can tell you the reload time with 1 hand is = ∞, unless you're willing to sit down on the ground and use your knees & teeth to hold onto things.

 

We tried it, it was funny in a "three stooges with black powder" kinda way.

[Luckmann]

 

I would not mind having twice the reload time if I could just fire two pistols, or have a pistol and a sword.

 

 

Having played with a (replica) flint-lock pistol I can tell you the reload time with 1 hand is = ∞, unless you're willing to sit down on the ground and use your knees & teeth to hold onto things.

 

We tried it, it was funny in a "three stooges with black powder" kinda way.

 

 

I've actually shot with an old black-powder rifle, and yeah, I'm not saying you're exactly wrong. It really does take a lot of practice to be able to do that on the fly, and there's a really good argument that using two would take considerably longer to reload than just twice the time it'd take to load just one, but shut up.

 

 

As a side-note, god damn early firearms were nasty, weren't they? Imagine getting shot by a solid lead ball bigger than a 20-gauge solid slug. We shot it clear through (Heh, yeah, right, "clear") a steel plate used to announce that the firing range was live. If the shot itself doesn't kill you, and the shrapnel doesn't kill you, or the ensuing infection, enjoy your complimentary lead poisoning.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[flashedarling]

I'm guessing it would be too much to hope that a monk could still use unarmed attacks with his off-hand while wielding a pistol? The Equilibrium gun-fu monk has always been a concept I'd wanted to try.

[Voss]

I'm guessing it would be too much to hope that a monk could still use unarmed attacks with his off-hand while wielding a pistol? The Equilibrium gun-fu monk has always been a concept I'd wanted to try.

 

There are weapons slots.  You could go island aumaua, fill up on guns (3, 4 if you take the talent) and swap to hands if you like.  

[AlphaMagnum]

 

There is just way too much math in this thread!  Lets tone it down yall!

 

Hah.

 

I'm getting flashbacks to when I played EVE, and not good ones.

 

Anyway, as a generic pronouncement:

 

• The higher your might and the more % damage bonuses you stack, the more you want to be looking at dual-wielding.
• If you get most of your DMG bonuses as 1-hit activated abilities, it favors 2h, if its modals and passives, it probably favours dual-wielding.
• The lower your might and the amount of stacking damage bonuses you get, the more you want to look at weapons with DR reduction, and vice-versa.

I still need to look at dexterity, but from what I understood from Sensuki's vids, the pronouncement that its only good on no-armor classes seems rubbish.

 

 

I wonder if the bolded part is actually true.  Many of the Rogue's abilities, for example, are called "full attacks," which from what I understand involve attacking with all equipped weapons.

 

So even though the damage numbers on average suggest 20.5 for a 2h weapon vs 12.5 for a 1h weapon, the dual-wielder in this case would in fact hit twice.  Of course, this likely means being smacked by enemy DR twice, but the difference between 2h and dual wield is likely much smaller than it seems, particularly with Vulnerable Attack and Stilettos in play.

[Kordanor]

Yeah, for rogue and "full attack" abilities 2 x 1h weapons are most probably even more powerful.