Which Attributes for which class? And how high?

[Judicator]

 

But wouldn't that make you slow as hell? I know a tank's main role is to, well, tank but you'd think they still need to deal some decent damage to keep the enemy locked down?

 

 

Tanks need no Dex. In general, it's easy to avoid penalties in PoE and often you may not even want to dump stats below 10, because you might just not want the penalties, but if one wants to, Dex is definitely something you can just throw out the window completely as a Tank.

 

 

Simply wearing heavy armor makes you slow as hell. At that point it wouldn't matter much how faster your attack speed is as the recovery time between attacks is huge and unaffected by DEX.

 

 

Tanks don't really need to deal damage. They should soak it up, keep enemies tied up, and disrupt them. While they can pack a punch on the frontline with the relevant abilities, major DPS is usually better served on other party members.

 

So, I shouldn't bother with Dex if I want to build a defensive Paladin or Fighter? Seems counter-intuitive. I remember reading that Dex affected accuracy but I suppose they changed that.

[Luckmann]

 

 

But wouldn't that make you slow as hell? I know a tank's main role is to, well, tank but you'd think they still need to deal some decent damage to keep the enemy locked down?

 

 

Tanks need no Dex. In general, it's easy to avoid penalties in PoE and often you may not even want to dump stats below 10, because you might just not want the penalties, but if one wants to, Dex is definitely something you can just throw out the window completely as a Tank.

 

 

Simply wearing heavy armor makes you slow as hell. At that point it wouldn't matter much how faster your attack speed is as the recovery time between attacks is huge and unaffected by DEX.

 

 

Tanks don't really need to deal damage. They should soak it up, keep enemies tied up, and disrupt them. While they can pack a punch on the frontline with the relevant abilities, major DPS is usually better served on other party members.

 

So, I shouldn't bother with Dex if I want to build a defensive Paladin or Fighter? Seems counter-intuitive. I remember reading that Dex affected accuracy but I suppose they changed that.

 

 

I can't think of anything defensive that would bother with Dexterity. Dexterity hasn't affected Accuracy in a long time. The only thing it does now is affect your action speed/recovery and as a tank, you're going to have abysmal recovery rate anyway. There might be scripted encounters or dialogues you want dexterity for, but speaking strictly combat, no, no, you don't want Dexterity as a tank.

 

At all.

 

You can spend it better literally anywhere else, even Constitution.

 

Edit: This kinda wants me to play a Dwarf Fighter with the worst Dexterity in the kingdom. Just dumped all the way to the minimum and placed into something else. Like Intelligence.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Luckmann

[Kordanor]

But did I understand it correctly that with Guns both Shooting and Reloading count as action which profit from Dexterity?

[Luckmann]

But did I understand it correctly that with Guns both Shooting and Reloading count as action which profit from Dexterity?

 

As of BBv480, yes, firearms benefit +1/3 as much as other ranged weapons (unless I misunderstood the discussion).

 

I would expect this to be labeled an "exploit" by Sawyer and firearms nerfed into the ground before release, but yes, currently firearms do benefit a little bit more than other weapons, because Dexterity affects the reload speed.

 

This is not necessarily major, but it is something to take into account for a specifically firearms-focused build.

[Striped_Wolf]

Worth noting is perhaps that much of the combat can apparently be circumvented in favor for social/misc interaction.

By being 'optimized' for combat effectivenss will most likely hamper your social ability. So yeah, all depending on playstyle.

I remember in Planescaqpe I had a blast maxing out Wisdom for all the memory unlocks. And it payed off. But I wasnt much of a brawler
 
 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Azmodiuz]

in torment I always maxed out charisma dex wisdom and intelligence never cared for consitution or strength. My first playthourgh though I did strength and con. Didnn't know anything about the game yet, pleasant surprise

[Kordanor]

Can you actually push attributes via enchantments or magical items? And with doing so "savescum" your way through dialogues?

 

So let's say you save, go into a dialoge where you need 14 int, but you only have 12. Then you reload, equipt items which bring you +2 int and then do the dialogue again?

 

Is there actually a way to change any of your attributes after you created your character? it seems like Level ups do not give you any attribute points. But are there any other ways? Like these barrels in Might and Magic? (though they were rather silly)

Edited March 20, 2015 by Kordanor

[gkathellar]

Worth noting is perhaps that much of the combat can apparently be circumvented in favor for social/misc interaction.

By being 'optimized' for combat effectivenss will most likely hamper your social ability.

 

Supposedly, this is going to be absolutely untrue, as the devs claim to be taking pains to ensure that there really are numerous conversation options for just about all of the stats at many different levels.

 

Can you actually push attributes via enchantments or magical items? And with doing so "savescum" your way through dialogues?

 

Yes.

[Kordanor]

Thats actually pretty good news to me, gives additional freedom. And switching from combat gear to "conversation gear" isn't necessarily that anti-RP either.

[Luckmann]

It's also funny because when you come to a quest hub (a town, a city, whatever) the first thing you should do is actually go rest and get that +2 to everything relevant buff. On one hand, that's actually pretty cool, because it incentivizes doing what you should be doing anyway ("We just got back to town, let's rest") but on the other hand, damn that's wonky when it comes to balancing the dialogue options.

[Judicator]

On a semi-related note, what kind of armor should a Barbarian wear? I'm assuming light armor and decent DEX so he can squeeze out as many attacks as possible?

[Kordanor]

Does your barb use 2h or 2 X 1h weapons? And how AoE focused do you plan making him?

From what I understood, it doesnt make sense to increase dex if you are using a 2h weapon as the additional 2h recovering time penalty is not influenced by dex.

[Luckmann]

On a semi-related note, what kind of armor should a Barbarian wear? I'm assuming light armor and decent DEX so he can squeeze out as many attacks as possible?

 

Depends on how you build him, but provided you get the hang of positioning, he should wear clothes. That's clothes, by the way, not to be confused with robes. Clothes have no recovery time penalty, but robes do, for incredibly unclear reasons. Either that, or be naked.

 

If being naked or a barbarian wearing simple clothes offends your sensibilities something fierce, go with whatever is the lowest that you feel comfortable in without being ashamed (such as Leather).

 

Does your barb use 2h or 2 X 1h weapons? And how AoE focused do you plan making him?

From what I understood, it doesnt make sense to increase dex if you are using a 2h weapon as the additional 2h recovering time penalty is not influenced by dex.

Where'd you hear that? I see no reason why that'd be true, but before I correct you I want to leave some leeway just in case I'm wrong.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Luckmann

[Striped_Wolf]

 

Worth noting is perhaps that much of the combat can apparently be circumvented in favor for social/misc interaction.

By being 'optimized' for combat effectivenss will most likely hamper your social ability.

 

Supposedly, this is going to be absolutely untrue, as the devs claim to be taking pains to ensure that there really are numerous conversation options for just about all of the stats at many different levels.

 

Possibly not in the same prompt however. Having a well-rounded character might be beneficial if you want to overcome dialogue checks in general is all Im saying.

Although with the gear switching it might be moot. On the other hand, carrying around extrea gear, changing up before every npc interaction might get tiresome.

All in all, things to consider.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Luckmann]

Supposedly, this is going to be absolutely untrue, as the devs claim to be taking pains to ensure that there really are numerous conversation options for just about all of the stats at many different levels.

While what you say may be entirely true, it should be noted that just because there are numerous conversation options for all the Attributes (especially if we take scripted events into account) there is nothing saying that they will all be equally good, even remotely, at avoiding combat.

 

I would be incredibly surprised if Constitution featured much in dialogues at all (but equally surprised if it didn't feature a lot in scripted events) and I'd be downright amazed if as many dialogue options pertaining to Might will be used to avoid combat as, say, Perception or Intellect, or even Resolve.

 

I really do hope that there are numerous, honestly an overwhelming amount, of conversation and scripted event options for each of all the Attributes, but I would never expect all of them to be equally good at fulfilling certain goals. After all, I expect Dexterity to give you the options to pickpocket just as much as Intellect will give you the opportunity to be diplomatic (or Perception, or whatever).

 

....and I really hope I do get to break someone's arm in a dialogue with Might. Or something.

[Judicator]

Does your barb use 2h or 2 X 1h weapons? And how AoE focused do you plan making him?

From what I understood, it doesnt make sense to increase dex if you are using a 2h weapon as the additional 2h recovering time penalty is not influenced by dex.

2h and very AoE focused.

 

 

 

On a semi-related note, what kind of armor should a Barbarian wear? I'm assuming light armor and decent DEX so he can squeeze out as many attacks as possible?

 

Depends on how you build him, but provided you get the hang of positioning, he should wear clothes. That's clothes, by the way, not to be confused with robes. Clothes have no recovery time penalty, but robes do, for incredibly unclear reasons. Either that, or be naked.

 

If being naked or a barbarian wearing simple clothes offends your sensibilities something fierce, go with whatever is the lowest that you feel comfortable in without being ashamed (such as Leather).

So would he need dex or is it irrelevant? I'm thinking of pumping MGT, CON, and INT.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Judicator

[Zansatsu]

So heavy armor negates any Dex recovery or attack speed bonuses? OR are the bonuses so negligible that once you're in Heavy armor you won't notice the difference between a dex of 10 and 18.

[gkathellar]

Dexterity increases action speed. Heavy armor imposes a penalty on recovery speed that reduces the frequency of actions, making dexterity pretty much pointless.

[Kordanor]

Apparently it works like this:

 

You have an attack speed for each weapon. Let's say it's 2 seconds. Then you have a cooldown speed which has the same value. Both of these values are now modified by different values, like Speed from Dexterity, or Delay by Armor.

In addition 2 handed weapons seem to come with an additional 2h delay penalty (according to sensuikis post over here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71165-action-speed-vs-attack-speed-and-dex-how-does-it-all-work/?p=1585611 )

 

Now the Formular is Basically:

 

Speed for one cycle = (Base Attack speed)*(1 - Speed Bonus by Dex) + (Base Attack Speed)*(1+Armor Malus) + (Additional 2h penalty)

 

Now I have no idea at what speed a 2h weapon comes. But let's just assume it's 1 second. Let's also assume you got 15 dex (5 more than 10, which makes for a speed boost of 15%) and you are wearing a light armor with 20% penalty.

 

So one cycle would be:

1*0.85+1*1.2+1 = 3,05 seconds. The total advantage of your dex bonus was 0,15 seconds. Pertty much a net 5% speed boost.

 

If you took 5 points of might instead, that would be 15% of damge. In addition you don't face the Armor Threshhold that often (hit an enemy with 10 DR with 12 dmg twice, you do 4 dmg total. Hit the same enemy with 24 dmg once you do 14 dmg total)

 

So overall, Dexterity will hardly make any sense with 2h weapon. And hardly any sense if you wear amor. So if at all you would want to take Dexterity on naked ranged classes.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Kordanor

[Sensuki]

PER: Perception right now is a little under-powered; it can be useful against enemies with slow attacks (since interrupting a slow but powerful attack is helpful), but it needs a minor buff. The deflection bonus it has can also be useful for tanks as deflection is the most important defense stat.

 

RES: The worst attribute in my opinion. Like PER it needs a boost. Only useful for certain tank builds. The concentration bonus is basically meaningless and Obsidian really needs to buff the concentration bonus by +1. The only value it has it that it grants a deflection bonus and a will bonus.

Guess who predicted this outcome

 

Apparently it works like this:

Sorry man, I actually was wrong. I'll find the correct calc.

 

I have the correct attack speed formulas

 

There is still a global recovery mult of x1.2, but recovery penalties for style were reduced

 

Assume 10 Dex, No armor

 

1H Fast, single = 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery

1H Normal, single = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

2H = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

Dual wield fast = 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery

Dual wield normal = 30 frame animation, 36 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Kordanor]

And does Speed actually influence the recover time? Or only the animation time?

[Giantevilhead]

That sucks. So there's basically no incentive for taking dexterity over might. With might, you actually get the bonus it says but with dexterity, you get less due to the other factors affecting speed.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Giantevilhead

[Kordanor]

Actually no. With might you get even more than what is displayed. With Dex you get less of what is displayed. ^^

 

Because if you do 50 dmg vs 10 DT you do 40 dmg net. If you get a 10% dmg bonus by might, you would actually do 55 dmg vs 10 DT = 45 net dmg, which is a total increase of >11% ^^

[GreyZ]

That sucks. So there's basically no incentive for taking dexterity over might. With might, you actually get the bonus it says but with dexterity, you get less due to the other factors affecting speed.

Well what you have to keep in mind though is that reducing your recovery effectively acts as a multiplier for ALL your damage bonuses, while might is only a multiplier for your base damage.

[Kordanor]

Can you give an example of something which profits from dex, but not from might?

Except of a spell which just slows for example, as this of course does not include anything which could be affected by might.