Can you respec?

[Tildryn]

Lol, grogs.

 

Fortunately the IE Mod includes a command to respec in the form of the ChangeClass mod. I would suggest installing it, it lets you respec both yourself and your companions at will.

 

 

 

I have NO issue with people doing anything. My issue is with a game like PoE adopting these absurd, modern game, no-fail safety net mechanics.

A respec feature? Really? Give me a break. PoE is a rare *gem*. A one in a million classic RPG where character building is actually part of the game's *challenge*. If they were to put a respec feature in the game, it'd be no different than being given the chance to "redo" a missed play in a football game, or some other ridiculousness that goes against the spirit of the game itself.

 

You mean like Saving and Loading? Good grief, if it were up to people like you we wouldn't even have those.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Tildryn

[geobio]

I have NO issue with people doing anything. My issue is with a game like PoE adopting these absurd, modern game, no-fail safety net mechanics.

 

A respec feature? Really? Give me a break. PoE is a rare *gem*. A one in a million classic RPG where character building is actually part of the game's *challenge*. If they were to put a respec feature in the game, it'd be no different than being given the chance to "redo" a missed play in a football game, or some other ridiculousness that goes against the spirit of the game itself.

Exept they totally broke that because stats mean nothings, they flatened the whole thing so casual can buy and play this game, can't you see it ?

 

Best example is : My rogue can not stay sneak while I bait with my barbarian, now my party is just a ****ing train everyone is forced to follow.

 

Play the way I want ?  my A** yeah.

Edited March 27, 2015 by geobio

[Longknife]

was just curious if you could respec your hero at some point?

 

 

Ya bro u just gotta collect enough dragon souls.

 

Can respec your Thu'um too after level 8.

[Oxford_Guy]

Can you change your character's portrait mid-game, though? You could in Baldur's Gate

[Gel214th]

Lol, grogs.

 

Fortunately the IE Mod includes a command to respec in the form of the ChangeClass mod. I would suggest installing it, it lets you respec both yourself and your companions at will.

 

 

 

I have NO issue with people doing anything. My issue is with a game like PoE adopting these absurd, modern game, no-fail safety net mechanics.

A respec feature? Really? Give me a break. PoE is a rare *gem*. A one in a million classic RPG where character building is actually part of the game's *challenge*. If they were to put a respec feature in the game, it'd be no different than being given the chance to "redo" a missed play in a football game, or some other ridiculousness that goes against the spirit of the game itself.

 

You mean like Saving and Loading? Good grief, if it were up to people like you we wouldn't even have those.

 

I tried installing the IEMOD , but my savegame failed to load Do you know if there is an updated mod available, and where it might be?

 

I think that every player who bought the game should have the right to play as they see fit.

Not including a respec option was a poor design decision on the part of the developer in my view. I want the option, and I'm sure the developer didn't mind getting my money for the game.

 

All the people that bought this title are certainly not "hardcore" or oldschool. 

[Lephys]

Here's the thing:

 

If "I want this" is a reason for literally anything you could possibly want to be in the game, optionally, then what would constitute something that should not be in the game?

 

I mean, should we have the option to have 97 party members, just because someone would like that? What's the point in even designing a game at that point? "How many party members are these encounters designed for? Ehhh, just however many."

 

If someone just wants a "cinematic mode," in which you don't actually play the game at all. You just watch a complete 100% playthrough of the game, handled entirely by AI, while you munch your popcorn... should that be an option in the game, just because "desire"?

 

There's just more evaluation of a potential feature to be had than "someone would like this." That can't be the sole determining factor for the reasonability of a feature.

[Tildryn]

Here's the thing:

 

If "I want this" is a reason for literally anything you could possibly want to be in the game, optionally, then what would constitute something that should not be in the game?

 

I mean, should we have the option to have 97 party members, just because someone would like that? What's the point in even designing a game at that point? "How many party members are these encounters designed for? Ehhh, just however many."

 

If someone just wants a "cinematic mode," in which you don't actually play the game at all. You just watch a complete 100% playthrough of the game, handled entirely by AI, while you munch your popcorn... should that be an option in the game, just because "desire"?

 

There's just more evaluation of a potential feature to be had than "someone would like this." That can't be the sole determining factor for the reasonability of a feature.

 

-----

 

That's just an empty Slippery Slope argument.

 

You weigh the benefits a feature would have against the drawbacks, as with anything else.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Tildryn

[Lephys]

Define "benefits" and "drawbacks."

 

What are the benefits to the game's design, beyond "someone who wants it gets their desire satisfied"?

 

That's kind of the whole point. The whole "why not, it's optional?" argument is suggesting there are no drawbacks.

 

That's why I made the whole "there's a barrel of legendary weapons sitting on the ground at the beginning of the game" example. You don't HAVE to go take a weapon, so there's no drawback to having the option of grabbing a weapon, right?

 

I think people sometimes don't understand the general idea of designing a game.

 

Hey, what if, in the rules of solitaire, we just let people play whatever card they want, wherever! It's fine if someone likes to just play cards in places, but it's either a deliberately-designed game, or it isn't.

 

I mean, why respeccing? Why not just let you switch talents and re-allocate anything you want, whenever you want? It'll be just like character creation, but nothing will ever be locked. Go in and pull some points out of your Mechanics skill now, and you can just put those into something else. I'm serious. Skip the middle-man. Why reset all your points in one, singular function, when you could just leave them malleable throughout the whole game?

[Tildryn]

Define "benefits" and "drawbacks."

 

What are the benefits to the game's design, beyond "someone who wants it gets their desire satisfied"?

 

That's kind of the whole point. The whole "why not, it's optional?" argument is suggesting there are no drawbacks.

 

That's why I made the whole "there's a barrel of legendary weapons sitting on the ground at the beginning of the game" example. You don't HAVE to go take a weapon, so there's no drawback to having the option of grabbing a weapon, right?

 

I think people sometimes don't understand the general idea of designing a game.

 

Hey, what if, in the rules of solitaire, we just let people play whatever card they want, wherever! It's fine if someone likes to just play cards in places, but it's either a deliberately-designed game, or it isn't.

 

I mean, why respeccing? Why not just let you switch talents and re-allocate anything you want, whenever you want? It'll be just like character creation, but nothing will ever be locked. Go in and pull some points out of your Mechanics skill now, and you can just put those into something else. I'm serious. Skip the middle-man. Why reset all your points in one, singular function, when you could just leave them malleable throughout the whole game?

 

-----

 

Reductio ad absurdum.

[Stun]

You mean like Saving and Loading? Good grief, if it were up to people like you we wouldn't even have those.[/size][/font]

 

 

Uh... no. Not like saving and reloading. Although, if we're going to nitpick, lets talk to Josh Sawyer and ask him what he thinks about stuff like save scumming.

 

But whatever. This entire discussion is a totally moot point, because your side will never be able to overcome the two bottom lines here.

 

1) PoE is NOT a Diablo 3/Wow/Dragon Age influenced game. It is an IE influenced game. And the IE games didn't have friggin respeccing. (respeccing would have ruined those games)

2) PoE has already been released. It has no respec feature, and probably never will as long as Josh is its Project director. Thank God.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Stun

[Lephys]

Reductio ad absurdum.

------------------------------

 

Responsio ad absurdum. If you can't answer someone's question, you might as well not even respond.

 

What makes the idea that the game should have respeccing any less absurd than the idea that it should have any of those hypotheticals I proposed? It's a simple question, and it's basically the heart of this entire debate.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Lephys

[Ohioastro]

You're basically asserting that respec is game-destroying without any evidence at all.  Sometimes people want to try out a different build.  Maybe they want to respec the choices hardcoded for the companions.  Now, obviously, I could construct a respec that was overpowered (on the fly; reset class, gender, etc.)  But I could also construct one that wasn't, and pretending that there is nothing but game-destroying options is neither true nor useful.

[Lephys]

As opposed to asserting that there's a reason beyond "people would like it" for it to be in the game, without any evidence at all?

 

And it's not game-destroying. I never asserted that. I said it's contrary to the game's design. If you build a team of low-Will people, then get to a group of enemies who are all spellslingers, targeting Will, then you have the option to just go respec your whole party so that you can dominate that fight. The purpose of your build decisions is the mutual exclusion of strengths and weaknesses.

 

And, "you could just not-use it" doesn't work, because... what if you could take 20 people with you in your party? You COULD simply opt to limit yourself to 6, but why do that? Besides... how do you even know you're not at a disadvantage by not using 20 people?

 

It's the role of game limitations to let the player know where boundaries are. If you can only take 6 people, then you know encounters weren't designed with 10 party members in mind. If you can only get 20 Might, then you know someone with 18 Might is VERY powerful, relative to the absolute best they could be. If the game provides you an option, how are you supposed to know how you'll fare without using it?

 

Respec isn't something that should inherently be in every game ever. That's all. It's not a bad mechanic. It just isn't a good fit for this game. Why? Because the game is designed around being unable to respec. That's why. If you dislike that design, that's fine. But, you can't say that "No, the design can't possibly exclude respeccing; respeccing is always a part of all designs, ever."

 

Also, if you're able to re-do your character build choices, why not get to re-do all your choices (without actually reloading or making a new game to completely play back through them)? "Wait, I didn't want to fail to convince that guy to give me money. Where's my re-dialogue option?!"

[Ohioastro]

There are a ton of talents, far too many to choose in any one game.  You don't even see the ones further down the tree until you pick the prerequisites.  And if you pick up companions the game chooses their talents for you.  These are all sound reasons to allow people to respec - we get, what, six out of dozens to try per character?  What this does is make the vast majority of the choices irrelevant - people will go to online guides, pick the safe choices, and effectively ignore the rest.  A respec gives you the chance to try out different approachs to the game.

 

There is a reason why this is a popular option, almost always present in games.  These games are long.  I'm not going to run through with the same class multiple times to test out different talent builds - if I do multiple runs at all it'll be to roleplay different ways and to try radically different classes.  So you have a combination of 1) many choices; 2) few you can actually take; 3) many hours per replay.  That combination is a good argument for some flexibility.

 

The slippery slope argument is remarkably weak - here is something that no one wants, which is irrelevant - but if you can do what you ask then this stupid thing could happen too!  Nope.  The stupid thing only happens if someone makes an argument for it.

[Lephys]

There are a ton of talents, far too many to choose in any one game.  You don't even see the ones further down the tree until you pick the prerequisites.  And if you pick up companions the game chooses their talents for you.  These are all sound reasons to allow people to respec - we get, what, six out of dozens to try per character?  What this does is make the vast majority of the choices irrelevant - people will go to online guides, pick the safe choices, and effectively ignore the rest.  A respec gives you the chance to try out different approachs to the game.

-------------------------------------

 

This isn't Pokemon. The nature of the game isn't "COLLECT ALL THE OPTIONS!" Also, that people are lazy and don't try things out because optimal build strats are available online is irrelevant. People will be lazy no matter what. Even if you can respec, you STILL have to actively try out your new choices, right? So, yeah, if you're cool with completing each section of the game with a completely different build until you're satisfied, you're golden. Otherwise, there's not much difference between simply starting a new game or reloading that save before you "spent" your level up, then trying a fight or two to see how you like that talent.

 

Shy of providing you some kind of practice fight zone, you can't really try out your decisions without actually progressing through something in the game.

 

-------------------------------------

There is a reason why this is a popular option, almost always present in games.  These games are long.  I'm not going to run through with the same class multiple times to test out different talent builds - if I do multiple runs at all it'll be to roleplay different ways and to try radically different classes.  So you have a combination of 1) many choices; 2) few you can actually take; 3) many hours per replay.  That combination is a good argument for some flexibility.

-------------------------------------

 

That's equally as good of an argument for the game to be shorter. Either you care enough to spend the time required to try out all the talents for a given character/class (in which case, again, you're going to have to go fight something and do stuff to try them all out, which ALSO takes a lot of time, respec or no), or you don't, and only care about a specific subset of talents. It's either a prudent use of your time, or it isn't. And you either have the time to do it, or you don't. You don't have to replay the entire game 100 times just to test out different talents with a given character/class, and you don't need a magical respec ability to do that either.

 

-------------------------------------

The slippery slope argument is remarkably weak - here is something that no one wants, which is irrelevant - but if you can do what you ask then this stupid thing could happen too!  Nope.  The stupid thing only happens if someone makes an argument for it.

-------------------------------------

 

The "no one wants such-and-such, even though I have no proof or evidence whatsoever" argument is pretty weak, too. Again, how can you "try out" your respecced talents without actively using them in a combat encounter? So how is "the stupid thing" of strategically gaining a HUGE advantage against particular groups of foes not going to happen?

 

Do you deny the effects of options on a player of a video game? You don't think an inherent part of the design of a game, and the gameplay experience, is what the game does and does not allow you to do? o_O Because, that's what I'm pointing out, and you seem flabbergasted at why I would even observe such a thing.

[Stun]

Sometimes people want to try out a different build.

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Yep. Decent RPGs have a character creation system, and the Option to...you know... replay the game. Oh wait, I forgot. I'm talking to a bunch of Modern casuals who can't be bothered to replay a game.

 

 

 

----------

Maybe they want to respec the choices hardcoded for the companions.

------

Translation: F*ck the story and the lore behind those NPCs, I want Viconia to have 18 strength, but I don't want to waste a Belt slot to do it!

 

 

-------

Now, obviously, I could construct a respec that was overpowered (on the fly; reset class, gender, etc.)  But I could also construct one that wasn't, and pretending that there is nothing but game-destroying options is neither true nor useful.

-----------------

 

Worthlessly vague assertions. Do describe your respec proposal then, instead of simply making empty claims.

 

Actually, don't bother, because, again, there isn't a way to make a respec feature that doesn't cheapen the character building process by eliminating 50% of the Choice-Consequence element.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[redneckdevil]

Respeccing robs the player a reason to play the game again.

Want to test all the priest skills and talents? With respec u could experience it in one playthru. Without respeccing, that person would have to play multiple times.

This game and the others weren't meant to just be played one time, they were meant to play multiple times so that u could get multiple experiences and because the games were designed to be enjoyed for a long time while trying to give the player as many different experiences as possible. It's not designed to have a life span of just less or equal to a year, it try's to be timeless.

And having respec shortens that life span for players.

 

All just imho

[Magrusaod]

 

Sometimes people want to try out a different build.

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Yep. Decent RPGs have a character creation system, and the Option to...you know... replay the game. Oh wait, I forgot. I'm talking to a bunch of Modern casuals who can't be bothered to replay a game.

 

 

 

----------

Maybe they want to respec the choices hardcoded for the companions.

------

Translation: F*ck the story and the lore behind those NPCs, I want Viconia to have 18 strength, but I don't want to waste a Belt slot to do it!

 

 

-------

Now, obviously, I could construct a respec that was overpowered (on the fly; reset class, gender, etc.)  But I could also construct one that wasn't, and pretending that there is nothing but game-destroying options is neither true nor useful.

-----------------

 

Worthlessly vague assertions. Do describe your respec proposal then, instead of simply making empty claims.

 

Actually, don't bother, because, again, there isn't a way to make a respec feature that doesn't cheapen the character building process by eliminating 50% of the Choice-Consequence element.

 

 

This whole response is hostile, grossly unwarranted and just putting in the worst case scenario and ignoring all other possibilities. Congrats, I'm impressed. 

 

You do realize, some folks have lives, and might not have the time to devote endless amounts of hours to one particular game. Right? Spouses, children, jobs, college, other hobbies, etc, etc. 

 

For example, I am unemployed, and don't have kids. So it may seem like I have all of the time in the world based on that assumption. Guy doesn't work and doesn't have kids to support, he's good to go. However, I am doing the following: 

 

1. Helping a family member start up a home business, on call to assist as needed all week long, night and day. 

2. Engaged to a lovely woman who demands and deserves attention. 

3. I have a grandfather who is going through treatment for cancer. My grandparents here both take care of my niece and nephew, one of which is too young for school to help out. Which leads to: 

4. While my grandfather is going through cancer treatments, my grandmother must care for him. Hence, I take care of the 4 and 6 year old's they normally care for half the week. It saves their parents roughly $500 weekly. 

5. I am starting up a home business relating to RPG's which requires me to devote nearly every bit of free time that doesn't involve 1-4, sleep, or food to creating my own game world, RPG system, and DM'ing for folks in order to setup a customer base. This eats between 20-60 hours weekly of my time depending on a number of variables. 

 

The assumption that everyone will be thrilled to invest time in multiple times playing through this game just because you plan to is a faulty one. I may be able to fit playing through this game once, before next year rolls around. Once. All the time I can allow myself. Just how it is. 

 

So, regardless of how you feel, a simple ability to respec things if I realize everything isn't working out how I want it to, and salvage an issue which to me is a deal breaker for playing this game, would be a reasonable request. If allowed, and you have a problem with it, you can simply ignore it, never use it, and be on your merry way. Couldn't you? I mean, no one's going to show up and go all Samuel L. Jackson in your house with a gun to your head screaming for you to hit the damn button. 

 

I really don't see what folks problems are with this concept being mentioned. Some people simply really have other responsibilities, and are using this as a hobby to enjoy some free time. Limited free time which is important to them. Free time, that if lost, due to derpy companions, or a poor choice made when selecting options with your character along the way which destroy your enjoyment for the game later on. Could in fact become a straight up deal breaker of continuing to enjoy the game at all. If I were to invest 2 week playing this game, and realize my group just isn't working out, I would have to shelve it for at least 6 months. I wouldn't be able to go "Oh well, it's a great game, I'll just start a new party." I'd have to uninstall it, get back to working on the various needs in my life, and go "Man, I wish I could just spend 30 minutes shifting some attributes around really quickly and fix this mistake that was made and get back to enjoying this great game."

 

However, you obviously have it all figured out, and everyone just wants to make broken characters and that's the devil and you must curse them for it. *nods* I get you. 

[Stun]

How many times do we have to hear this "I'm too busy!" retort?

 

 

There are countless thousands of Games for people who "don't have time". Many RPGs as well. These games offer:

1) instant gratification - for those who don't have time for the dramatic build up

2) very little reading - for those who don't have the time to read.

3) quest markers - for those who don't have time to explore

4) linear class progression - for those who don't have the time to sit down and study their options/choices

5) brief storylines - for those who don't have the time for a long narrative

6) the ability to respec - for those who don't have the time to replay the game.

 

PoE was designed from the ground up to be the opposite of that type of game. When Josh Sawyer came on these very forums and told us, over a year ago, that PoE would be bigger than Baldurs Gate, You people should have taken the hint and ran for the hills right then and there. If you don't have time to either fix your build gradually via the level up process, or start over when you're 10 or 20 hours in, you probably won't have the time to finish the game anyway, so why are you even worried about your build?

 

And again, why should developers cater to people who can't be bothered to give the game the time and attention it deserves?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[Magrusaod]

So, the fact I am a busy man who wants to enjoy this game as a hobby, instead of way of life means I shouldn't support it and I am to be ridiculed for having an opinion? I get it. Thanks.

[Creslin321]

Ooookay guys.  I see a lot of strawman arguments flying around here that basically assume the worst kind of respec solution possible and then argue against that.

 

So here is my challenge to you guys that oppose respec.  I am going to present a respec solution that I think would please everyone.  If you have a problem with this solution, please argue specifically against it.  If you do not have a problem with this solution, then say so, so we can lay this argument to rest.

 

Here is my solution:

 

1.  Respec will be an optional feature that can be turned on or off at the start of a new game, similar to ironman mode.  Once you start the game, you cannot change it, and there will be an achievement for beating the game with respec off.

 

2.  If you opt to have Respec in your game, then to respec you will need to go to a major town and pay an NPC some amount of gold when you respec.

 

3.  Respec will essentially just let you choose every level up benefit again, but will not let you choose a new class or race.

 

4.  Every character in your party will be respeccable.

 

Please let me know what the issues are with that solution.  Bear in mind that if you don't want respec in your game, you can just turn it off at the beginning and you will never know it exists.

[Stun]

OK, here's one issue with it. RPGs are supposed to be about Choice & Consequence. But you're basically proposing a "remove consequences" toggle in the game play options menu.

 

Why stop there? Why not also ask for a "remove RPG elements" toggle while we're at it?

 

PS: the term is "Character Building". Not "Character Rebuilding"

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[Creslin321]

How many times do we have to hear this "I'm too busy!" retort?

 

 

There are countless thousands of Games for people who "don't have time". Many RPGs as well. These games offer:

1) instant gratification - for those who don't have time for the dramatic build up

2) very little reading - for those who don't have the time to read.

3) quest markers - for those who don't have time to explore

4) linear class progression - for those who don't have the time to sit down and study their options/choices

5) brief storylines - for those who don't have the time for a long narrative

6) the ability to respec - for those who don't have the time to replay the game.

 

PoE was designed from the ground up to be the opposite of that type of game. When Josh Sawyer came on these very forums and told us, over a year ago, that PoE would be bigger than Baldurs Gate, You people should have taken the hint and ran for the hills right then and there. If you don't have time to either fix your build gradually via the level up process, or start over when you're 10 or 20 hours in, you probably won't have the time to finish the game anyway, so why are you even worried about your build?

 

And again, why should developers cater to people who can't be bothered to give the game the time and attention it deserves?

 

------------------

Just want to point out that I used a trainer in every single IE game to respec and it did not ruin the game.

 

It's not like people weren't respeccing their characters back in the 90's.  Hell, I even respec my character in pen and paper D&D, and most DMs never really have an issue with it.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Creslin321

[Creslin321]

OK, here's one issue with it. RPGs are supposed to be about Choice & Consequence. But you're basically proposing a "remove consequences" toggle in the game play menu.

 

Why stop there? Why not also ask for a "remove RPG elements" toggle while we're at it?

 

--------------------------

 

What difficulty mode do you play on?

 

If it's anything other than "Easy," then why don't you have a huge problem with Easy difficulty existing?  After all, that clearly removes consequence from the game since all the content will be inherently easier to beat.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Creslin321

[Lephys]

Look, you've got some valid points, but, really, if your party isn't working out, you should be able to figure that out before 2 weeks of playtime have elapsed. The game is just not built that way. You're not going to get to one fight or area that's like "UH OH, IF EVERYONE IN YOUR PARTY DOESN'T HAVE 18 CONSTITUTION, YOU'RE EFFED!"

 

The Talents are designed in such a way that, if you find you're lacking something (attack speed, constitution, damage, etc.), you can pick a Talent to compensate at your next even level-up.

 

You're exaggerating the restriction of a lack of respec, and its impact upon your build choices.

 

Also, the amount of free time you have is going to be somewhat proportional to the amount of time-intensive experimentation you plan on doing in the game. I will use Pokemon as an example, again. There are like 1,000 pokemon to acquire, now, to "catch 'em all." If you enjoy Pokemon, but don't have a ton of free time, you're probably just going to play through it with whatever Pokemon you can muster. You're not going to say "Man, this game really needs a way to just try out all the Pokemon in the whole world, but still only spend about 30 hours playing."

 

You always get to choose from all the Talents available to your given character/class, as you go through the game, so you don't really need to choose every single one of them, unless you're just trying to test every single build in the game.

 

I am sorry you don't have tons of free time, and I have no intention of belittling your situation or anyone else's, and Stun can be quite rude/venomous... BUT, the game still does not owe it to people with little free time to be a game with a billion build combinations, all of which you can try in as little time as possible. It is perfectly legitimate for the game's design to simply say "Meh, we give you all the options, and you get what you pick, and lack what you don't pick." Especially if the game has basically made it impossible to ever wind up useless because of your build, unless you just blindfold yourself and pick a bunch of stuff that doesn't work together at all (Like "I have the slowest attack speed ever, and I keep picking things that decrease my attack speed but grant me other things, but my goal is to have a fast-attacker" or something.)