Update 91: Closing in on March 26th!

[Darkpriest]

It's just a bit childish not to acknowledge understandable factors in things. You should be able to experience frustration without having to assign blame for it. They should've been clearer with their information. Blame assigned. Other things are frustrating, too. That doesn't equal "Obsidian doesn't give a crap."

 

These are people, and it's human freakin' decency to wait until you actually have a reason to call it like that. It's like when you get stuck in some horrible traffic jam on your way to work, and your boss is all "Hmmm, obviously you don't care about punctuality, u_u"... What a crappy thing to say. Yeah, I guess you should wake up 4 hours early and get to work 3 hours early every day, just to make sure there's no delay that could POSSIBLY make you late.

 

Maybe they should've just printed all the game manuals and guides a year before they finalized the mechanics, you know... so they could guarantee you'd have them on March 26th. *eye roll*

 

the thing is, when I am going to be late I call even if there is a remote chance that I might be late, I usually leave a bit earlier than need to, to prevent "late arrival" situations. If i come early, I just get some coffee and read my private stuff.

 

Again, you are making points about things I am not addressing. F. up is a f. up, no matter if they cared or not ( I can;t reliably say if they did or not), the thing is, they chose poor wording, they fall short on their promise and were extremely poor on the "communication" part when it comes to shipments and deliveries so far. That's a fact, not an opinion. We are also not in middle ages. an express delivery takes 3 DAYS between NA and EU, but you need to pay extra money for that. Trying to mock the deliveries by 1 year before print outs is just silly considering the age we live in.

[Lephys]

the thing is, when I am going to be late I call even if there is a remote chance that I might be late, I usually leave a bit earlier than need to, to prevent "late arrival" situations. If i come early, I just get some coffee and read my private stuff.

Exactly. They should've called, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been late.

 

Again, you are making points about things I am not addressing.

I seem to recall there being more than just the two of us in this thread, and I don't recall quoting you on the points I'm making that don't pertain to you.

 

We are also not in middle ages. an express delivery takes 3 DAYS between NA and EU, but you need to pay extra money for that. Trying to mock the deliveries by 1 year before print outs is just silly considering the age we live in.

You seem to be missing the point by being overly focused on the chronology of the process. The point was that the production and finalization of the physical goods was not divorced from the development process of the game. You can't just make the goods whenever you want, because they contain information specifically related to the things in the game that may still change up until a certain point in the development cycle. Beyond that, if we're still going to go with "well, they should've finalized those thing earlier," then I could respond, along the same line of reasoning, with "more people should've backed the game, so they'd have enough money to hire the necessary people to do so."

 

Also, why isn't anyone calling out Paradox for anything? They're the ones publishing the game.

[Darkpriest]

Also, why isn't anyone calling out Paradox for anything? They're the ones publishing the game.

 

 

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

 

I communicate with the people that I gave money to in order to fund the project, it is THEIR responsibility to arrange proper conditions, including agreements with third parties, like publishers, and execute the conditions of these agreements accordingly. If something fails, it is their responsibility to appropriately AND accurately inform backers about the situation.

 

I will reiterate the point, that it takes 3 business days for an express delivery of a small package to come from anywhere in US to anywhere in EU, I believe it is 7 days for all other parts of the world. It should not interfere with the process that much. I understand that regular shipments take from 7-14 days to around a month, so i guess it might be a bit late at this point, to get them on day 1, but from what I understand the content was not shipped yet.

 

If that's the case they still have a choice for opt outs etc. considering that majority of people will be playing digital version anyway, additional delay of 1-2 weeks should not be a problem if they will communicate properly

Edited March 16, 2015 by Darkpriest

[LordCrash]

 

Also, for what it's worth, to the people posting Amazon's "guaranteed" shipping date... did Amazon make their OWN copies of this game, all by themselves? because, if they didn't, then I don't see how on God's green earth they're going to ship you something faster than Obsidian can even ship it to them. Unless Amazon just has blackmail on all the couriers or something.

 

The "normal shop versions" are probably made by Paradox in Europe. Only the backer editions are shipped from the US to everywhere in the world. That's the difference. Really no big mystery.

 

And the only childish behaviour is yours, I'm afraid. As others have pointed out before, shipping to Europe isn't a "big mystery". Every half decent Ebay trader can ship a small package for 20 bucks in less than 7 business days to everywhere in the EU. It's really not THAT hard and you don't have to be ready with your physical stuff "a year before release" (you do know that exaggerations like that are childish?), not even close.

 

And yeah, they're human. Human DO make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that everybody just has to "take it" as if nothing happened. In case humans and companies make mistakes it's very important how they react to that. The LEAST they could do is officially apologizing and explaining the whole situation to the public and best from the top of the company. They could AT LEAST make an official backer update instead of just writing a one liner on the forum. You know, it's a about respect and about showing some actual regret by making at least some effort. It's also about showing that you care and take your most loyal customers and fans and their concerns seriously. If you don't do that properly you make the situation even worse than it is. It's hard to build up a solid reputation but super easy to lose it...

 

And I really don't get that "Hey, every kickstarter so far handled it badly so far, so it's ok" mentality. That's a royally ****ed up mentality imo. That's like saying "Hey, it's ok that the brakes of this car don't work as intended, every car manufacturer does it that way". I must have forgotten to read the memo that it's ok to behave in a bad way just because everyone else does so. And I must have forgotten to read the memo that crowdfunding means that you can behave unprofessionally just because you don't have a traditional publisher anymore...

[Hiro Protagonist II]

so instead of a delay, where people would get a full content, we get a slightly shorter delay with missing content and a lower end value for collectors edition. On top of that Obsidian is actually paying more for that. So not only they cannot satisfy the day 1 expectations in the first place, not only they failed to deliver on expectations to the high tier backers, they also are paying MORE to do so...

 

I can understand why Obsidian did it this way, I don't necessarily agree with it being an international backer. And it's what baffled me when the poll went up and still continues to baffle me. There was always going to be a delay for the international backers when they receive their physical goods. Obsidian splitting the physical goods and sending the physical stuff without the disc and then paying extra to send the disc later when they know there is going to be a delay in the first place just amazes me. It might take an extra week to print the discs but the rest of the goods are delayed anyway. Better to send everything together. At least it will save Obsidian money.

[LordCrash]

 

so instead of a delay, where people would get a full content, we get a slightly shorter delay with missing content and a lower end value for collectors edition. On top of that Obsidian is actually paying more for that. So not only they cannot satisfy the day 1 expectations in the first place, not only they failed to deliver on expectations to the high tier backers, they also are paying MORE to do so...

 

I can understand why Obsidian did it this way, I don't necessarily agree with it being an international backer. And it's what baffled me when the poll went up and still continues to baffle me. There was always going to be a delay for the international backers when they receive their physical goods. Obsidian splitting the physical goods and sending the physical stuff without the disc and then paying extra to send the disc later when they know there is going to be a delay in the first place just amazes me. It might take an extra week to print the discs but the rest of the goods are delayed anyway. Better to send everything together. At least it will save Obsidian money.

 

 

For what it's worth, I think the game DVDs won't be sent from the US to Europe (and elsewhere) but they will be directly produced in Europe by Paradox. So the shipping costs and times won't be that high for the game DVDs. As someone else has pointed out before, this could even mean that European backers get their physical game DVD before they get their boxes...

[Lephys]

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

Who gave birth to the people who made that decision in the first place?!

 

Do you see how silly the blame game becomes?

[LordCrash]

 

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

Who gave birth to the people who made that decision in the first place?!

 

Do you see how silly the blame game becomes?

 

 

Then maybe you should just stop posting here, derailing and belitteling other people's concerns. Thanks in advance.

[Darkpriest]

 

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

Who gave birth to the people who made that decision in the first place?!

 

Do you see how silly the blame game becomes?

 

 

and the point here is?

 

Aside of looking stupid I see no purpose for the comment. Perhaps you should heed an advice given by some famous people:

 

Here, one by Abe, one of forefathers of your beloved 'murica.

 

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

[Katarack21]

I do care about the trust I've put in that they have ability to deliver the product or at least accurately inform us about the predictable outcomes.

You didn't buy a product. There's no sale/purchase deal going on here. You're not getting ripped off in any way. You donated to a company; in return that company has promised to reward you with copies of their product. You are going to get exactly what you were promised; just with a delay. Any reasonable person should have predicted shipping difficulties and been prepared to wait for months after the shipping date, based on prior Kickstarter results.

 

I can understand being upset; this rage coming out of people I do not understand.

[Lephys]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Oh, the irony of your posting that.

 

No worries, . Enjoy your bliss. Sorry to have bothered you with difficult points.

 

Then maybe you should just stop posting here, derailing and belitteling other people's concerns. Thanks in advance.

But you get to belittle mine? Seems legit. Also, wasn't aware discussing the particulars of Obsidian's fulfillment process in a thread about Obsidian's fulfillment process was derailing anything. What... derailing it from RageVille?

Edited March 16, 2015 by Lephys

[Katarack21]

 

 

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

Who gave birth to the people who made that decision in the first place?!

 

Do you see how silly the blame game becomes?

 

 

and the point here is?

 

Aside of looking stupid I see no purpose for the comment. Perhaps you should heed an advice given by some famous people:

 

Here, one by Abe, one of forefathers of your beloved 'murica.

 

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

Is there a reason you had to throw out a "Murica"? Or are you just poisoning the well?

[Darkpriest]

 

 

 

Who selected Paradox as the publisher in the first place?

Who gave birth to the people who made that decision in the first place?!

 

Do you see how silly the blame game becomes?

 

 

and the point here is?

 

Aside of looking stupid I see no purpose for the comment. Perhaps you should heed an advice given by some famous people:

 

Here, one by Abe, one of forefathers of your beloved 'murica.

 

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

Is there a reason you had to throw out a "Murica"? Or are you just poisoning the well?

 

 

just trying to match the sophistication level in terms of comments of the quoted part

[Darkpriest]

 

I do care about the trust I've put in that they have ability to deliver the product or at least accurately inform us about the predictable outcomes.

You didn't buy a product. There's no sale/purchase deal going on here. You're not getting ripped off in any way. You donated to a company; in return that company has promised to reward you with copies of their product. You are going to get exactly what you were promised; just with a delay. Any reasonable person should have predicted shipping difficulties and been prepared to wait for months after the shipping date, based on prior Kickstarter results.

 

I can understand being upset; this rage coming out of people I do not understand.

 

 

I am not complaining about the product. I had no issues with it being delayed or some changes and design decision made. I do have a problem with how they communicated on the shipments part, especially during and after the poll, and how they are handling the outcome of their odd decision, that is not satisfying for non-US backers of physical tier.

 

There is also a problem with CE editions for a number of high tier backers, where they will get something that does not meet the criteria of the collectors edition, i.e. boxes not containing the game disc. which raises a number of additional issues, like probability of missing discs in transit, lower collectible value if you have to unseal it to put the disc in, if the boxes are sent unsealed, who will be held accountable if some of the content is missing? Obsidian? Paradox? Shipping party? etc.

[Katarack21]

You could easily have made that point about the stupidity of the quote without resorting to the implication of a stereotypical "redneck America". What you were doing is something people tend to do when they no longer have any logical arguments to make and are instead arguing based on pure emotion.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

You could easily have made that point about the stupidity of ....

 

You could have easily pointed out the stupidity of Lephys' posts as well.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[LordCrash]

 

I do care about the trust I've put in that they have ability to deliver the product or at least accurately inform us about the predictable outcomes.

 

Any reasonable person should have predicted shipping difficulties and been prepared to wait for months after the shipping date, based on prior Kickstarter results.

 

 

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. First, because at the time of the kickstarter of Pillars not even ONE big kickstarter game project was released/shipped so it was impossible to "predict" any shipping difficulties as a " general kickstarter rule" while pledging and second, because such a rule just doesn't exist and even if previous kickstarter project were sloppy here that isn't a free ticket for every other company to behave in exactly the same way. So no, any reasonable person should have expected that companies stick to their promises (and getting your stuff on time IS part of the promise), ESPECIALLY because people just gave them money upfront without a product being even in existance at the time of paying. You're absolutely right, it's not a preorder, it's even MORE than that. It's a matter of mutual trust and respect, not just a usual purchase process . Giving people their rewards weeks or even months after release is just not ok, no matter how you look at it. I gave them my money on time, you know. It's even worse if you don't clearly and transparently communicate such issues.

 

I really don't understand how you can defend Obsidian here, sorry. It makes no sense at all to me. Or maybe you're just lacking the empathy for other people who wanted to enjoy their game WITH their physical stuff right there or who wanted to actually collect their (signed) CE. You know, besides just making this game possible people had different motivations for different levels of pledges and they had certain (reasonable) expectations and wishes at that time and also later on. If a lot of what they've expected doesn't turn out to be true it's just a huge pile of money kind of wasted for some. Maybe that's not an issue for you personally. But at least try to understand that it IS an issue for me. 

[Katarack21]

 

 

I do care about the trust I've put in that they have ability to deliver the product or at least accurately inform us about the predictable outcomes.

 

Any reasonable person should have predicted shipping difficulties and been prepared to wait for months after the shipping date, based on prior Kickstarter results.

 

 

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. First, because at the time of the kickstarter of Pillars not even ONE big kickstarter game project was released/shipped so it was impossible to "predict" any shipping difficulties as a " general kickstarter rule" while pledging and second, because such a rule just doesn't exist and even if previous kickstarter project were sloppy here that isn't a free ticket for every other company to behave in exactly the same way.

 

 

 

It's not some sort of rule, it's general wisdom and common sense. You're correct, there hadn't been a Kickstarter project of this scale, but there had been many completed Kickstarter projects and virtually all of them were delayed to varying degrees. It's not that there is some kind of excuse; it's that as an adult you should be able to see blatantly obvious things and plan your life accordingly. I'm not surprised by any of these developments; you seem to be shocked and outraged. I don't get that.

 

 

So no, any reasonable person should have expected that companies stick to their promises (and getting your stuff on time IS part of the promise), ESPECIALLY because people just gave them money upfront without a product being even in existance at the time of paying. You're absolutely right, it's not a preorder, it's even MORE than that. It's a matter of mutual trust and respect, not just a usual purchase process . Giving people their rewards weeks or even months after release is just not ok, no matter how you look at it. I gave them my money on time, you know. It's even worse if you don't clearly and transparently communicate such issues.

On time? What do you mean "on time"? You mean on the release date for the game you didn't buy? Your rewards have literally nothing to do with the schedule of development and release of the game; their is no promise, implied or otherwise, that your rewards will track exactly with the game's release. And if you look at the list on the side of the the Kickstarter page, you'll see ESTIMATED delivery times. The basic problem still seems to be the same thing; you think you bought something that you are now not getting on schedule, and are therefore being ripped off; that's not what happened. You donated to a company, and now you won't get your donation reward for a little bit longer than you thought. The only real point you've made is about their lack of clarity in their recent communication, which even so doesn't make sense to me because I wasn't confused in the slightest. I expected this delay; I assume a delay of this type as a matter of course for any delivery to Europe, Australia, or Japan. I assumed from the beginning that the delay they were talking about would be in addition to the standard and entirely normal shipping delay.

 

I really don't understand how you can defend Obsidian here, sorry. It makes no sense at all to me. Or maybe you're just lacking the empathy for other people who wanted to enjoy their game WITH their physical stuff right there or who wanted to actually collect their (signed) CE. You know, besides just making this game possible people had different motivations for different levels of pledges and they had certain (reasonable) expectations and wishes at that time and also later on. If a lot of what they've expected doesn't turn out to be true it's just a huge pile of money kind of wasted for some. Maybe that's not an issue for you personally. But at least try to understand that it IS an issue for me.

 

Wow, really? Let me make this as clear as I can: I understand what you are talking about, I do realize it's an issue for you, I just disagree with your points and especially with the extremity of emotional reaction you are having. I'm not some sociopath just because I'm telling you to calm the hell down. I understand that you are upset and that it is upsetting; I do not agree with your rage. It's a little extreme.

[Katarack21]

 

You could easily have made that point about the stupidity of ....

 

You could have easily pointed out the stupidity of Lephys' posts as well.

 

Lephy's posts didn't include implied insults meant to throw off somebodies credibility via the poison-the-well tactic. If Lephys had done that, I would have called him out on it, too.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Lephy's posts didn't include implied insults meant to throw off somebodies credibility via the poison-the-well tactic. If Lephys had done that, I would have called him out on it, too.

 

Oh, so it's okay to post stupid posts as long as they don't have implied insults? And you won't call them out. Gotcha.

[Katarack21]

 

Lephy's posts didn't include implied insults meant to throw off somebodies credibility via the poison-the-well tactic. If Lephys had done that, I would have called him out on it, too.

 

Oh, so it's okay to post stupid posts as long as they don't have implied insults? And you won't call them out. Gotcha.

 

Yeah, exactly. Be an idiot all you want, I don't care, just don't be a ****.

[Luckmann]

 

 

You could easily have made that point about the stupidity of ....

 

You could have easily pointed out the stupidity of Lephys' posts as well.

 

Lephy's posts didn't include implied insults meant to throw off somebodies credibility via the poison-the-well tactic. If Lephys had done that, I would have called him out on it, too.

 

 

Is poisoning the well a tactic?

 

How does it work?

 

Where do I learn it?

 

Can I pin it on... someone of a certain abrahamitic variety?

[Katarack21]

Yes, it's a logical fallacy used as a debate tactic. Look it up; it's not hard to learn, but also not hard to defeat.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yes, it's a logical fallacy used as a debate tactic. Look it up; it's not hard to learn, but also not hard to defeat.

 

Oh, so you don't mind other logical fallacies being used by posters like Lephys but take issue with poisoning the well. Okay.

[Katarack21]

 

Yes, it's a logical fallacy used as a debate tactic. Look it up; it's not hard to learn, but also not hard to defeat.

 

Oh, so you don't mind other logical fallacies being used by posters like Lephys but take issue with poisoning the well. Okay.

 

Again, it's very simple. Be an idiot if you want; I don't care. Just don't be a ****. It's not complicated to tell the difference between a deliberate attempt to discredit somebody and just being stupid; it's literally in the definition of the logical fallacy.

 

Note that I'm not calling Lephys stupid; I'm just saying my purpose in making that post was very specific. I don't know why you've developed this weird obsession with it. There's no hypocrisy or double standard here, nothing to really work your teeth into. I mean, you can keep trying if you want, but you're going to have a boring night.