White People: What They Say in Public vs Behind Closed Doors

[BruceVC]

 

You are not the type of person who makes weird or extreme comments and you always take the time to engage in debate where appropriate so its unfair to say  to " you have made the dumbest comment ever " without even asking you to explain or clarify

Do think a refutation of the claim that "banning abortion is socialist" is necessary Bruce?

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

But Baro this is not really my point. I like you, you are very bright and make some very insightful points on topics that I agree with but sometimes its how you speak to people. You come across as condescending and dismissive. And apart from the obvious issue with how this may offend people what happens is people just automatically become belligerent and don't want to engage with you..which is a pity because I think you offer some good  perspectives 

 

I'm not trying to lecture you, I am just trying to be constructive

[Longknife]

 

 

Can't find Russian strippers and escort girls.

 

 

Have you tried looking literally anywhere ever

 

It's easy to find a fake "Russian" strippers, but they are Moldavians, Ukrainians, Central Asians or Jews IRL. 

 

 

We serious? I personally know two from Krasnodar, and it's not exactly hard to find others either. FFS you are aware "Russian mail-order brides" are a thing in the USA, right? (supposedly highly successful too, which is kind of hilarious)

Edited March 18, 2015 by Longknife

[Guard Dog]

 

I've only know one person who actually was Russian by birth. He was an engineer I worked with about 15 years ago. He didn't have anything nice to say about Russia, that's for sure.  

 

Wow, so you don't  know any gay people or many Russians....you haven't traveled far down the path of multiculturalism have you GD ?

 

 

Ah you are misquoting me sir. I seem to remember I said "I'm sure I've met many gay people, just never knew it". With the exception of the more... flamboyant ones shall we say, gay folks look just like everyone else. As for Russians, well they are hard to find here along the mighty Mississippi.

[obyknven]

 

 

 

Can't find Russian strippers and escort girls.

 

 

Have you tried looking literally anywhere ever

 

It's easy to find a fake "Russian" strippers, but they are Moldavians, Ukrainians, Central Asians or Jews IRL. 

 

 

We serious? I personally know two from Krasnodar, and it's not exactly hard to find others either. FFS you are aware "Russian mail-order brides" are a thing in the USA, right? (supposedly highly successful too, which is kind of hilarious)

 

Serious. In Russia live around  180 native ethnicities and only one from them are real Russians. For example i find vid with some dancers from Russia, but... they have Ukrainian surnames. fail. Or other vid from Petersburg - this girl obviously have non-Russian southern origin, but typical girls from this town have same appearance. In Russia non-Russians everywhere.

 

https://vimeo.com/122354756

 

My personal exp. during trips in Europe also . All "Russian" migrants what i encounter really are not Russians, but Ukrainians and Jews. They often hide own real origin and pretend be a Russians (especially Jews like do this, they yet worried about European antisemitism and don't forget what happened in "civilizied" Europe half-century ago ).  

 

P.S. - Just for your education - Krasnodar mostly inhabited by same people as in Ukraine (Cubanoids - Russian nickname for them) + Caucasian natives.

https://lurkmore.to/%CA%F3%E1%E0%ED%EE%E8%E4

https://lurkmore.to/%CA%F0%E0%F1%ED%EE%E4%E0%F0 

[Namutree]

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

Does not compute.

 

-Sigh- Let me guess, you're going to bring up the nazi's again, aren't you?

[Barothmuk]

Uhm. Why?

He already answered good sir:

 

I considered it socialistic as it suggests collective ownership of people's bodies.

Clearly referencing Marx's famous proclamation that we must socialize the means of reproduction.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

Does not compute.

 

-Sigh- Let me guess, you're going to bring up the nazi's again, aren't you?

 

Go ahead and check out South America to see how "atheist" the socialist are there. Though I wouldn't trust non-religious socialists to be a vanguard of reproductive rights considering the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal. I can't say what Marxists parties are like abroad, but the one's here in the US are real douches.

 

But why does it strike me as socialistic specifically? Because I tend to view socialism as a system of collective control over society; some keep it purely economical, but many if not most don't and demand collective control over well... everything.

 

I do consider it suggesting that personal property belongs to everyone if everyone has a say over what a woman does with her own body.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Namutree

[Barothmuk]

the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal.

Source?

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

Does not compute.

 

-Sigh- Let me guess, you're going to bring up the nazi's again, aren't you?

 

Go ahead and check out South America to see how "atheist" the socialist are there. Though I wouldn't trust non-religious socialists to be a vanguard of reproductive rights considering the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal. I can't say what Marxists parties are like abroad, but the one's here in the US are real douches.

 

But why does it strike me as socialistic specifically? Because I tend to view socialism as a system of collective control over society; some keep it purely economical, but many if not most don't and demand collective control over well... everything.

 

I do consider it suggesting that personal property belongs to everyone if everyone has a say over what a woman does with her own body.

 

 

The fact that in South America socialism goes hand in hand with religion is really quite remarkable, and would probably make Marx scratch his head in confusion. Still, should there be a hypothetical  South American socialist regime that bans abortion, then I would wager that would be more easily explained by their religious, rather than their socialist roots. For the record, I am not saying I don't think socialist regimes would never ban abortion, I am just saying that I don't think it's very specifically inherent to socialism. 

[Namutree]

 

the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal.

Source?

 

You know what. I'll have to admit that I made a mistake here by claiming that the "American Communist Party" said this. My bad.

 

It was a mistake I made while researching the abortion issue in the past. I misread my source, a book called, "Issues: Abortion" which is in a line of books from the 90's that cover a range of political issues from the perspective of various ideologies including Nazi's, KKK groups, Feminists, Democrats, Republicans , and yes, Communists regarding various political issues. While looking for that piece online I've read some of the parties' views of abortion which doesn't jive with what I claimed about them. Found the book and re-read it (the Communist part) just to be sure. It seems that I foolishly interpreted certain lines.

 

 When taken into proper context some of their lines have a different meaning than how I took them back then. They are pro-reproduction rights, even in the long term. I completely take back the quoted statement. It seems I should re-evaluate my perception of the American Communist Party...

 

Man, a few years ago I must have been tired or something... I got that 100% wrong. I hate it when I misunderstand something I read!

 

Oh well, we all make mistakes, or at least I do. I can't be SURE everyone makes mistakes.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal.

Source?

 

You know what. I'll have to admit that I made a mistake here by claiming that the "American Communist Party" said this. My bad.

 

It was a mistake I made while researching the abortion issue in the past. I misread my source, a book called, "Issues: Abortion" which is in a line of books from the 90's that cover a range of political issues from the perspective of various ideologies including Nazi's, KKK groups, Feminists, Democrats, Republicans , and yes, Communists regarding various political issues. While looking for that piece online I've read some of the parties' views of abortion which doesn't jive with what I claimed about them. Found the book and re-read it (the Communist part) just to be sure. It seems that I foolishly interpreted certain lines.

 

 When taken into proper context some of their lines have a different meaning than how I took them back then. They are pro-reproduction rights, even in the long term. I completely take back the quoted statement. It seems I should re-evaluate my perception of the American Communist Party...

 

Man, a few years ago I must have been tired or something... I got that 100% wrong. I hate it when I misunderstand something I read!

 

Oh well, we all make mistakes, or at least I do. I can't be SURE everyone makes mistakes.

 

 

Hey, mistakes happen.

[Namutree]

For the record, I am not saying I don't think socialist regimes would never ban abortion, I am just saying that I don't think it's very specifically inherent to socialism. 

 

I don't think banning abortion is inherent to socialism either. I have already stated that I am aware that some socialist keep it strictly economical. Rather that taking something private and putting it under collective control is socialistic. 

[Barothmuk]

It seems I should re-evaluate my perception of the American Communist Party...

They're still pretty ****ty.

[Namutree]

 

It seems I should re-evaluate my perception of the American Communist Party...

They're still pretty ****ty.

 

Oh. What's wrong with them? It seems my view of them is based on old and inaccurate memories.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Namutree

[BruceVC]

 

 

the American Communist Party (not a highly religious bunch) has stated before that taking collective control over women's reproduction was a long-term goal.

Source?

 

You know what. I'll have to admit that I made a mistake here by claiming that the "American Communist Party" said this. My bad.

 

It was a mistake I made while researching the abortion issue in the past. I misread my source, a book called, "Issues: Abortion" which is in a line of books from the 90's that cover a range of political issues from the perspective of various ideologies including Nazi's, KKK groups, Feminists, Democrats, Republicans , and yes, Communists regarding various political issues. While looking for that piece online I've read some of the parties' views of abortion which doesn't jive with what I claimed about them. Found the book and re-read it (the Communist part) just to be sure. It seems that I foolishly interpreted certain lines.

 

 When taken into proper context some of their lines have a different meaning than how I took them back then. They are pro-reproduction rights, even in the long term. I completely take back the quoted statement. It seems I should re-evaluate my perception of the American Communist Party...

 

Man, a few years ago I must have been tired or something... I got that 100% wrong. I hate it when I misunderstand something I read!

 

Oh well, we all make mistakes, or at least I do. I can't be SURE everyone makes mistakes.

 

Correct we all make mistakes, well done for having the maturity to admit it. The ability to admit we are wrong is severely lacking on this forums from many people so well played 

Edited March 19, 2015 by BruceVC

[Barothmuk]

Oh. What's wrong with them?

Impotent Soc-Dem party.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

 

No, it's not usually banned on religious grounds. It's historically usually banned on the grounds that many people, religious and not, consider it murder.

 

Banning murder is not socialistic. If one does not see it as murder then I can see how one would consider it that though.

 

As for communists. There is no standard communist position on the matter. ie: At various times the Soviet Union allowed and banned abortion. However communist Russia was the first nation in the world to allow it Carte blanche. Later they changed their minds (many have theorized they did this when the population of ethnic Russians wasn't as growing as much Stalin would have liked). So, in the case of the U.S.S.R., one might say that the stance on abortion was a matter of state run reproductive policy, which would indeed make the issue of abortion socialistic in that nation.

 

In the world at large there are multiple schools of thought in regards to the issue. Some are technocratic, some are socialistic, for some it's just a matter of 'women's rights', for some it's just a matter of seeing it at murder, and so on. In the U.S. all of these schools exist, but the 'woman's right's movement' and the 'right to life' (those who consider it murder) are the two major factions that generally get the airplay on the news, and for the most part has what's been driving any legislation in regards to the matter. The less dominant schools of thought ally or attempt to manipulate these major schools (as they do with pretty much any issue). So while there is no obviously visible direct influence by technocrats or socialists one could argue they have influenced the debate. Indeed many have argued that the modern women's rights movement itself is socialistic or technocratic in nature, in addition many have argued that the issue of abortion itself is technocraticly driven from a eugenics perspective.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

 

No, it's not usually banned on religious grounds. It's historically usually banned on the grounds that many people, religious and not, consider it murder.

 

Banning murder is not socialistic. If one does not see it as murder then I can see how one would consider it that though.

 

As for communists. There is no standard communist position on the matter. ie: At various times the Soviet Union allowed and banned abortion. However communist Russia was the first nation in the world to allow it Carte blanche. Later they changed their minds (many have theorized they did this when the population of ethnic Russians wasn't as growing as much Stalin would have liked). So, in the case of the U.S.S.R., one might say that the stance on abortion was a matter of state run reproductive policy, which would indeed make the issue of abortion socialistic in that nation.

 

In the world at large there are multiple schools of thought in regards to the issue. Some are technocratic, some are socialistic, for some it's just a matter of 'women's rights', for some it's just a matter of seeing it at murder, and so on. In the U.S. all of these schools exist, but the 'woman's right's movement' and the 'right to life' (those who consider it murder) are the two major factions that generally get the airplay on the news, and for the most part has what's been driving any legislation in regards to the matter. The less dominant schools of thought ally or attempt to manipulate these major schools (as they do with pretty much any issue). So while there is no obviously visible direct influence by technocrats or socialists one could argue they have influenced the debate. Indeed many have argued that the modern women's rights movement itself is socialistic or technocratic in nature, in addition many have argued that the issue of abortion itself is technocraticly driven from a eugenics perspective.

 

 

Interesting post Vals 

 

Whats your view on abortion? I am fine with it under the right circumstances, I think it is a very traumatic experience for any women and most of the time its not done without careful consideration  

[Gfted1]

Really, Bruce? Cant puzzle that out by them referring to it as MURDER!!!

[BruceVC]

Really, Bruce? Cant puzzle that out by them referring to it as MURDER!!!

 

Not really. he may be referring to how some in  society sees it..I still am not sure of his actual opinion  

Edited March 19, 2015 by BruceVC

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm  not sure of the context, did he say that ?

 

I said that I think banning abortion is socialistic which is not the same as saying it's socialist specifically, but rather that it seems like the kind of thing socialists would be inclined to do.

 

 

Uhm. Why? I mean... Since socialism is traditionally tied to atheism, why would they ban abortion? Abortion is usually banned on religious grounds.

 

 

No, it's not usually banned on religious grounds. It's historically usually banned on the grounds that many people, religious and not, consider it murder.

 

Banning murder is not socialistic. If one does not see it as murder then I can see how one would consider it that though.

 

As for communists. There is no standard communist position on the matter. ie: At various times the Soviet Union allowed and banned abortion. However communist Russia was the first nation in the world to allow it Carte blanche. Later they changed their minds (many have theorized they did this when the population of ethnic Russians wasn't as growing as much Stalin would have liked). So, in the case of the U.S.S.R., one might say that the stance on abortion was a matter of state run reproductive policy, which would indeed make the issue of abortion socialistic in that nation.

 

In the world at large there are multiple schools of thought in regards to the issue. Some are technocratic, some are socialistic, for some it's just a matter of 'women's rights', for some it's just a matter of seeing it at murder, and so on. In the U.S. all of these schools exist, but the 'woman's right's movement' and the 'right to life' (those who consider it murder) are the two major factions that generally get the airplay on the news, and for the most part has what's been driving any legislation in regards to the matter. The less dominant schools of thought ally or attempt to manipulate these major schools (as they do with pretty much any issue). So while there is no obviously visible direct influence by technocrats or socialists one could argue they have influenced the debate. Indeed many have argued that the modern women's rights movement itself is socialistic or technocratic in nature, in addition many have argued that the issue of abortion itself is technocraticly driven from a eugenics perspective.

 

 

Interesting post Vals 

 

Whats your view on abortion? I am fine with it under the right circumstances, I think it is a very traumatic experience for any women and most of the time its not done without careful consideration  

 

 

My view is that it's a very grey issue. The circumstances in regards to what leads a woman to want to get an abortion vary greatly. I think both of the major mainstream schools of thought as represented in the media have it wrong, as they are presented to have a black and white view of the matter, and indeed this is how many see it. In my experience those who see it as a black and white issue (should be allowed 100% or should be banned 100%) generally have not thought the issue through at all, and have allowed media to define their opinions on the matter (which is common for many to do on any given issue).

 

The legal issues are quite complex. Roe v. Wade, the landmark case in regards to the issue in the U.S. is quite complex, as is the subsequent fallout from it. In the main stream media (which is generally dominated by leftist thought) Roe v. Wade has been misrepresented as to allow abortion Carte blanche. It did not do this, yet it is commonly celebrated by many to have done so. While I generally agree with the ultimate outcome of the case, I vehemently disagree with some of the arguments and reasoning made during it, as indeed some of those arguments were socialistic in nature (I generally stand firmly opposed to socialism as well as generally agree with the argument that the court didn't have Constitutional jurisdiction over the matter).

 

Again though, the issue is very complex. A discussion about Roe v. Wade between people knowledgeable on the issue could last a great many hours in person. And Roe v Wade aside, there are many different scenarios one could discuss, and in many of them the questions of 'should the state be involved?', and 'if so in what manner?' leads to a complex discussions in themselves.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

Really, Bruce? Cant puzzle that out by them referring to it as MURDER!!!

 

Your puzzling skills are lacking.

[Cantousent]

I'm anti-abortion in principle. I also think it's murder. Sadly, a good number of people here know my real name, so if I run for office, I'll be stuck with the 'pro-life' designation. For some people, that will make it the 10,325th reason not to vote for me. I mean, I've got so many skeletons dancing around in my closet, I put up a disco ball for them.

 

However, I have known several people who have had abortions. A couple of them well. I think they did something wrong and made a mistake, but if you think abortion is murder, then you should also believe that forgiveness is divine. Not one of the people I've known who had abortions did it frivolously. It was a brutal decision and I thought my place wasn't to judge them. In asmuchas I could, I thought my place was to comfort them.

 

Anyhow, stopped reading this thread a while back and come in just in time to ensure I'll piss off some members with my pro-life stance. heh However, the reason that I stopped by was because I found out something funny as relates to something I posted earlier. It turns out my blood donor card lists my so called race as Hispanic. hehe This is because when I was in the hospital for my burst appendix years ago, the staff there determined that I should be classified as Hispanic. I think it helps for statistical evaluation or something. ...But I would have put 'white' if they'd asked, so I don't know why it ended up that way. I don't remember talking about it with anyone. Of course, my appendix had been burst for some time, so some of it's a bit fuzzy anyway.

[BruceVC]

I'm anti-abortion in principle. I also think it's murder. Sadly, a good number of people here know my real name, so if I run for office, I'll be stuck with the 'pro-life' designation. For some people, that will make it the 10,325th reason not to vote for me. I mean, I've got so many skeletons dancing around in my closet, I put up a disco ball for them.

 

However, I have known several people who have had abortions. A couple of them well. I think they did something wrong and made a mistake, but if you think abortion is murder, then you should also believe that forgiveness is divine. Not one of the people I've known who had abortions did it frivolously. It was a brutal decision and I thought my place wasn't to judge them. In asmuchas I could, I thought my place was to comfort them.

 

Anyhow, stopped reading this thread a while back and come in just in time to ensure I'll piss off some members with my pro-life stance. heh However, the reason that I stopped by was because I found out something funny as relates to something I posted earlier. It turns out my blood donor card lists my so called race as Hispanic. hehe This is because when I was in the hospital for my burst appendix years ago, the staff there determined that I should be classified as Hispanic. I think it helps for statistical evaluation or something. ...But I would have put 'white' if they'd asked, so I don't know why it ended up that way. I don't remember talking about it with anyone. Of course, my appendix had been burst for some time, so some of it's a bit fuzzy anyway.

 

Nope I doubt anyone will question your view to be pro-life, this is your personal view and you allowed to believe what you want as it is a very controversial issue

 

We can agree to disagree and that's fine