Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Malcador]

Well, by that definition this very forum is an outside influence because people in the PoE section are constantly posting long game design rants about how a game should be made. Doesn't make it required. Or significant.

It does, though I suppose the scum posting stuff in PE forums isn't quite comparable to something like the IGDA. But what's the harm in talking about them ? Hurting the IDGA's feelings or something ?

[Blarghagh]

I'm fine with people talking about it, I just fail to see why it's such a big deal. Meshugger in particularely seemed rather upset about it.

 

 

So the entire thing is about post-development localisation except for one paragraph that essentially says "if you're afraid localization will be difficult or a lot of work, you could decide to keep it in mind during the design level" and now it is entirely about how you make the game? That seems a leap to me, I guess.
 
Also, outside influence? Again, nobody is obliged to do any of these things, they can just choose to if they find it important. That way any single programming tutorial or design guideline could be counted as an outside influence in the same way. I wrote a couple of resources on tension arcs and storytelling back in school for fellow students, does it mean I'm an evil outside influence on the creativity of everyone who reads it, even if they choose not to use it?
 
And who do you think this is geared towards? The artiste indie dev who writes a game about the holocaust that will obviously have offending content? Or that company that makes educational, cartoony games for kids that are meant to be non-offensive due to target market?
 
Again, it just seems like much ado about nothing. Looking for malice where none exists.

Okay so I can't really discuss this in the order you bring it up, so let me try to summarize:
 

A book like Robert McKee's STORY is vastly different than the IGDA supporting something it calls "Best Practices".  In my line of work when a body publishes "Best Practice" the intention is for these to become industry standard.  Often, there will end up being penalties if you do not follow these Best Practices, including no longer being able to participate in the organization that published the Best Practices because you don't follow their Best Practices.

 

Who do I think its geared for?  Its Best Practices.  Its intended to be an industry standard.  Otherwise it'd be "Some friendly suggestions" or even "Localization: Some Pitfalls You Might Want To Think About If You Like To Do That Sort Of Thing".

 

Sure I may be making a lot of ado about nothing.  BUT there is language that I've seen before in other industry standard Best Practice documents in my own line of work so I have a hard time accepting that the goal of the document isn't to become industry standard.  And it DOES effect game development.  To you in a negligible way, to me in a worrying way that makes me see developers second guessing their ideas so as to not offend some theoretical person "out there".

 

 

I didn't see this post because of the page break, sorry. Anyway, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree and I'll take your word on what "best practices" means since I'll have to be quite honest in never having seen it before. In any case, IGDA doesn't hold enough sway to make something industry standard - it's a fairly controversial group, even before #GamerGate. Many game developers view them as con artists.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Gambling was replaced with Voltorb Flip? Battle Mansion is something different.

In X/Y you have to do Battle Mansion to get points and buy TMs with those points. Used to you would gamble for those points and buy TMs and pokemon with them. I didn't play any of the DS games so I have never played Voltorb flip.

[Blarghagh]

Fair enough, I'll defer to you - I rampaged through Y and didn't really pay attention too much. The only thing I remember from that one is that my starter was a ninja frog who wore his tongue like a scarf.

 

EDIT: By the way, Liz Finnegan, better known to people who follow #GamerGate as @lizzyf620, is now writing for The Escapist. :D

Edited March 13, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Fair enough, I'll defer to you - I rampaged through Y and didn't really pay attention too much. The only thing I remember from that one is that my starter was a ninja frog who wore his tongue like a scarf.

 

EDIT: By the way, Liz Finnegan, better known to people who follow #GamerGate as @lizzyf620, is now writing for The Escapist. :D

That was my starter and I stomped through most of the game with him and that landshark thing.

 

 

Article is here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/pixels-and-bits/13615-Paperboy-Was-Full-of-Moral-Dilemmas-For-the-Player?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=all

[Meshugger]

I'm fine with people talking about it, I just fail to see why it's such a big deal. Meshugger in particularely seemed rather upset about it.

 

 

So the entire thing is about post-development localisation except for one paragraph that essentially says "if you're afraid localization will be difficult or a lot of work, you could decide to keep it in mind during the design level" and now it is entirely about how you make the game? That seems a leap to me, I guess.

 

Also, outside influence? Again, nobody is obliged to do any of these things, they can just choose to if they find it important. That way any single programming tutorial or design guideline could be counted as an outside influence in the same way. I wrote a couple of resources on tension arcs and storytelling back in school for fellow students, does it mean I'm an evil outside influence on the creativity of everyone who reads it, even if they choose not to use it?

 

And who do you think this is geared towards? The artiste indie dev who writes a game about the holocaust that will obviously have offending content? Or that company that makes educational, cartoony games for kids that are meant to be non-offensive due to target market?

 

Again, it just seems like much ado about nothing. Looking for malice where none exists.

Okay so I can't really discuss this in the order you bring it up, so let me try to summarize:

 

A book like Robert McKee's STORY is vastly different than the IGDA supporting something it calls "Best Practices".  In my line of work when a body publishes "Best Practice" the intention is for these to become industry standard.  Often, there will end up being penalties if you do not follow these Best Practices, including no longer being able to participate in the organization that published the Best Practices because you don't follow their Best Practices.

 

Who do I think its geared for?  Its Best Practices.  Its intended to be an industry standard.  Otherwise it'd be "Some friendly suggestions" or even "Localization: Some Pitfalls You Might Want To Think About If You Like To Do That Sort Of Thing".

 

Sure I may be making a lot of ado about nothing.  BUT there is language that I've seen before in other industry standard Best Practice documents in my own line of work so I have a hard time accepting that the goal of the document isn't to become industry standard.  And it DOES effect game development.  To you in a negligible way, to me in a worrying way that makes me see developers second guessing their ideas so as to not offend some theoretical person "out there".

 

 

I didn't see this post because of the page break, sorry. Anyway, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree and I'll take your word on what "best practices" means since I'll have to be quite honest in never having seen it before. In any case, IGDA doesn't hold enough sway to make something industry standard - it's a fairly controversial group, even before #GamerGate. Many game developers view them as con artists.

 

I had a wisdom tooth pulled out yesterday, i can tell you that sheer pain from all your other lower teeth readjusting from the released tension will make you cranky and angry about anything. 1500mg Aspirin doesn't help one silch.

 

What i meant to write is that i see a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm about to get that done in 2 months, heard it really sucks man.

 

If you guys haven't heard, we're possibly going to be investigated by the FBI.

 

https://archive.today/osLCC

 

Do you think they'll be jealous when they find out about CIA?

[C2B]

https://media.8ch.net/gamergate/src/1426264192967.png

 

Thats quite the definition of maturity

[Blarghagh]

Haha, that's hilarious. What's the FBI going to find? Their own IP on all those threats?

 

I had a wisdom tooth pulled out yesterday, i can tell you that sheer pain from all your other lower teeth readjusting from the released tension will make you cranky and angry about anything. 1500mg Aspirin doesn't help one silch.

 

What i meant to write is that i see a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

Well, that makes sense then. I've lost all of mine already, they were all impacted at the same time. Not allowed to do more than two at a time for safety reasons, so they kept pushing for about a month. Undid a lot of the work my braces did when I was a kid too. But yeah, that will make you angry about anything.

[Meshugger]

Mark Kern, despite his incompetence with his latest project, can't seem to catch a break. 

 

About the FBI thing, i doubt anything will happen....except for awkward details about certain individuals getting unwanted attention.

[Meshugger]

Haha, that's hilarious. What's the FBI going to find? Their own IP on all those threats?

 

I had a wisdom tooth pulled out yesterday, i can tell you that sheer pain from all your other lower teeth readjusting from the released tension will make you cranky and angry about anything. 1500mg Aspirin doesn't help one silch.

 

What i meant to write is that i see a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

Well, that makes sense then. I've lost all of mine already, they were all impacted at the same time. Not allowed to do more than two at a time for safety reasons, so they kept pushing for about a month. Undid a lot of the work my braces did when I was a kid too. But yeah, that will make you angry about anything.

 

Then you know Two are gone by now and one left to go in two weeks (the last one is not in the way of anything so it will stay there for now). In my case, both so far have been more like little Cthulhu-spawns with 4 roots in different directions. I had to go to a specialist that is also teaching in medical school the first time, and he told me that he hadn't seen anything like that in 20 years of practice. 'lo and behold, it was him again yesterday, and along with some students this time to witness the 'operation'. Apparently i am an interesting subject to witness. You're welcome, mr dentist, i guess.

 

What are these rumors about a petition against Monte Cook's Numenera btw?

Edited March 13, 2015 by Meshugger

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Mark Kern, despite his incompetence with his latest project, can't seem to catch a break. 

 

About the FBI thing, i doubt anything will happen....except for awkward details about certain individuals getting unwanted attention.

I for one look forward to the FBI encountering bane posting. And possibly arresting Ghazi.

[Meshugger]

 

FBI concluded that all the threats were hoaxes? Anyone else have a second confirmation on this?

[Zoraptor]

 

The trouble there is the same as with all sort of 'cultural sensitivity' type stuff. Who is getting offended, what is the threshold of offence, whether practical benefits outweigh the costs of second guessing everything you do, selective application etc.

 

 

"Hey, you can do this and make moar moniez" is not exactly "pushing cultural sensitivity on you".

 

That is how it would be seen by those with an opposing view, though, no matter the intention.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do think it is in principle a good idea- to an extent, and in principle. But then that is pretty much my attitude to political correctness and the like as well. Something like telling Paradox that having a procedurally generated face for Muhammed in CK2 would be seen as offensive would be a good example of where it would work as intended, they could still have him with a portrait if they wanted to but at least would know ahead of time about it. OTOH, Crusader Kings is an inherently offensive term for many muslims anyway, and there's very little chance they didn't know that before hand. Change it to the inoffensive 'Generic Ruler Simulator Period 1000-500 Years Before Present' and it probably doesn't sell as well despite using purely inoffensive terms with no western bias.

 

But it is certainly prone to being manipulated and subverted to suit political agenda, which is what most of the people disagreeing with you think will happen. That is to a large extent what people object to in the social justice field, not the policies themselves, but that they are taken too far and manipulated to try and enforce, entrench and enhance particular political viewpoints. I can certainly see some people arguing that 'black man' should be replaced with 'person of colour' as a descriptor in text or even in dialogue, while making the argument that you're more likely to get people of colour buying if you do so. Well, that conclusion in itself would be questionable, and you'd end up with some pretty odd sounding dialogue or descriptions at the end.

[Fighter]

SJWism strikes again:

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

What are these rumors about a petition against Monte Cook's Numenera btw?

 

 

 

I suppose it's related to the ages-old idiocy with the Space Succubus.

 

Which is an argument that looks utterly stupid on the face, too (it's a Space Succubus! that's a trope older than dirt with a cybery reskin!), but after listening to the SJW side, they actually had some really good ideas about tweaking the monster in question to be less about "evil space vagina things are hunting you down for your sperm".

 

In any case, that argument has been resolved, so we got cute and fluffy purring little monsters instead of seductive toothy vagina-womb monsters. Which is actually pretty much the farthest thing from the other side's suggestions, but ah well.

 

 

 

 

The trouble there is the same as with all sort of 'cultural sensitivity' type stuff. Who is getting offended, what is the threshold of offence, whether practical benefits outweigh the costs of second guessing everything you do, selective application etc.

 

 

"Hey, you can do this and make moar moniez" is not exactly "pushing cultural sensitivity on you".

 

 

That is how it would be seen by those with an opposing view, though, no matter the intention.

 

 

And this mentality is not to be exposed, mocked and ridiculed for the paranoid farce it is, because...?

Edited March 14, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Amusing that you label it as paranoid, considering the large bunch of that post you left out that points at that. But I suppose said characterization does work for you so...

 

As for Chu, his Twitter edginess is pretty funny, even if he is some nobody.

[BruceVC]

Amusing that you label it as paranoid, considering the large bunch of that post you left out that points at that. But I suppose said characterization does work for you so...

 

As for Chu, his Twitter edginess is pretty funny, even if he is some nobody.

No I would definitely say that characterization is largely accurate 

Edited March 14, 2015 by BruceVC

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Amusing that you label it as paranoid, considering the large bunch of that post you left out that points at that.

 

What I left out, essentially, boiled down to "this can be misused in a manner that results in utterly stupid outcomes" (ie. replacing all uses of the word "black" with "person of color" would result in incredibly stupid-sounding dialogues, but I'm pretty sure nobody was advocating for that).

 

Whereas the subject was introduced with the header "IGDA IS PROMOTING SELF-CENSORSHIP IN THE NAME OF (sic) CULTURALIZATION".

 

I don't think it's unjustified to call the latter sentiment a paranoid farce while agreeing with the point expressed in the former.

Edited March 14, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

No I would definitely say that characterization is largely accurate 

And do you want a cookie then ? Good for you, Bruce!

 

What I left out, essentially, boiled down to "this can be misused in a manner that results in utterly stupid outcomes" (ie. all uses of the word "black" with "person of color" would result in incredibly stupid-sounding dialogues, but I'm pretty sure nobody was advocating for that).

 

Whereas the subject was introduced with the header "IGDA IS PROMOTING SELF-CENSORSHIP IN THE NAME OF (sic) CULTURALIZATION".

 

I don't think it's unjustified to call the latter sentiment a paranoid farce while agreeing with the point expressed in the former.

Sure, just as the last paragraph pretty much is the viewpoint you are seeing as paranoid. But, again, it works for you, and is always the barb thrown whenever there is a suspicion of anything, I suppose. Not that it is really a major concern either way, as TrueNeutral has a thorn in his ass on, but it is always a good and enjoyable thing to examine any "guidelines" being pushed, subtly or not, for problems or issues.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Sure, just as the last paragraph pretty much is the viewpoint you are seeing as paranoid.

 

 

I directly quoted the thing I called paranoid (ie. "it will always be seen as [trying to push "cultural sensitivity" on you], no matter the intention") in order to avoid misunderstandings.

 

I think seeing guidelines as "trying to push cultural sensitivity on you", regardless of textual evidence, intent, or presentation is pretty much the textbook definition of paranoia, and frankly, I'm astonished that anybody can see this as a statement to be contested.

Edited March 14, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Not surprising, but when it comes to implementation it is a tad vague so that is where the concern of what it will justify comes in. Not really paranoid to see that, but carry on.

[Meshugger]

 

 

What are these rumors about a petition against Monte Cook's Numenera btw?

 

 

 

I suppose it's related to the ages-old idiocy with the Space Succubus.

 

Which is an argument that looks utterly stupid on the face, too (it's a Space Succubus! that's a trope older than dirt with a cybery reskin!), but after listening to the SJW side, they actually had some really good ideas about tweaking the monster in question to be less about "evil space vagina things are hunting you down for your sperm".

 

In any case, that argument has been resolved, so we got cute and fluffy purring little monsters instead of seductive toothy vagina-womb monsters. Which is actually pretty much the farthest thing from the other side's suggestions, but ah well.

 

Eeeeeh, so instead of the same old succubus (but in spaaaaaaaaaace!), they have a cute and furry succubus?  That are all kinds of battles in life, and that's the one of them that i will not engage with a ten foot pole.

 

Eeeeww. 

[Meshugger]

[Meshugger]

Hohoho

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2z1k40/ben_kuchera_going_after_head_of_ea_communications/

 

Original blog-post that Ben Kuchera got so angry about is set to private: http://chrismancil.com/2015/03/13/how-gamergate-journalist-milo-cost-me-2500-followers/