What to do with the Ranger - ideas thread

[Sensuki]

Slightly off-topic but classes probably do need a bit of overall tuning

 

Wizards and Priests - too squishy (although that's a problem with how Health and Constitution work, not the class itself, really), and Wizards have quite a few MEH spells.

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks
Barbarians - they are okay, but they could be better at what they're supposed to do. Currently I prefer them as dual-wield 1H weapons for AoE splash damage and AoE interrupts.

Paladins - in v435 they are a bit weak - Lay on Hands does nothing, Aura range is too close and a few other issues.

Post release - I think Endurance/Health and Constitution mechanics need another look, and the game probably needs some more class talents for some classes that gives them a bit more variety.

[Heijoushin]

I haven't played the beta but... I find the entire concept of rangers a little boring (sorry Lord of the Rings) I mean, they're basically woodsmen, right? In a world of swords and magic, I can't really see the appeal of role-playing something so mundane (to each his own of course). Can someone explain the appeal?
 

PoE has guns, which is pretty rare in fantasy worlds. If you want a ranged class, it would have been nice to do something with that. Take a page out of Arcanum's book...

Edited March 9, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Tamerlane]

Conan once killed an evil wizard by throwing a chair at him. Some folks like playing something relatively mundane that spits/shoots arrows in the eye of fancier people. Can't have "a world of swords and magic" without some plain ol' swords.

 

Also, I want a pet deer.

[Elerond]

I haven't played the beta but... I find the entire concept of rangers a little boring (sorry Lord of the Rings) I mean, they're basically woodsmen, right? In a world of swords and magic, I can't really see the appeal of role-playing something so mundane (to each his own of course). Can someone explain the appeal?

 

PoE has guns, which is pretty rare in fantasy worlds. If you want a ranged class, it would have been nice to do something with that. Take a page out of Arcanum's book...

 

You could say that rangers are woodsmen or wanderers, but main concept I think is that they are bit rootless solitary people. Which is something that it heavily romanticized in fantasy books (and even non-fantasy books) as there is something in man versus nature (and themself) ideology. But of course it is something which is difficult to actually portrayal in game like PoE. 

[Two-Bull]

Slightly off-topic but classes probably do need a bit of overall tuning

 

Wizards and Priests - too squishy (although that's a problem with how Health and Constitution work, not the class itself, really), and Wizards have quite a few MEH spells.

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks

Barbarians - they are okay, but they could be better at what they're supposed to do. Currently I prefer them as dual-wield 1H weapons for AoE splash damage and AoE interrupts.

Paladins - in v435 they are a bit weak - Lay on Hands does nothing, Aura range is too close and a few other issues.

 

Post release - I think Endurance/Health and Constitution mechanics need another look, and the game probably needs some more class talents for some classes that gives them a bit more variety.

 

That's why I think the Ranger needs different paths: one for beast master and one for a solo Ranged combat archer.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Two-Bull

[Sensuki]

I think that's a bit much work for the base game. They could do with some talents that grant extra active abilities or something, or just some general different abilities in general IMO.

 

This game doesn't have skill trees so it has to be handled via the ability and talent system.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sensuki

[roguelike]

Slightly off-topic but classes probably do need a bit of overall tuning

 

Wizards and Priests - too squishy (although that's a problem with how Health and Constitution work, not the class itself, really), and Wizards have quite a few MEH spells.

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks

Barbarians - they are okay, but they could be better at what they're supposed to do. Currently I prefer them as dual-wield 1H weapons for AoE splash damage and AoE interrupts.

Paladins - in v435 they are a bit weak - Lay on Hands does nothing, Aura range is too close and a few other issues.

 

Post release - I think Endurance/Health and Constitution mechanics need another look, and the game probably needs some more class talents for some classes that gives them a bit more variety.

Yeah this is off topic but I've seen a few folks say that class stuff needs 'a little' tuning and that seems really optimistic.  

 

I haven't gone out and counted but probably a third to half the class abilities/talents are just trash, not even niche talents that you could maybe fit into a cool build someday like Gunner or Quick Draw but stuff like Adept Evasion and Faithful Companion and Arcane Veil and Into the Fray.  Stuff that no one should ever take.  Wizards are 'viable' in the sense that they have ten spells per level and 8 of them are strictly worse versions of lower level druid spells and two of them are decent to amazing.  Like yeah, they work but they don't really work in a pleasing manner.

 

I'm not sure I would say Paladins are weak.  They serve their mechanical purpose excellently, but don't quite capture that spark of 'this class is fun to play'.  Lay on Hands is okay to have if you're playing a tank paladin since your accuracy is terrible and you're using a hatchet and you have to choose either it or the damage boost.  Greater Lay on Hands is the real joke.

[Sensuki]

Do you want to work with me on a list of them if the next patch comes out? We can make a list between a few of us and post it on the forums.

[roguelike]

Yeah, sure.  I doubt they'll have time to tweak anything for the zero day patch, but once they've finished fixing all the hair on fire problems, it'd be nice to have a list.  It might help find bugs on some of the more rarely taken talents too.  Like Accurate Wounding Shot only applying to the hobbling status effect, not the original attack.

[Odd Hermit]

Slightly off-topic but classes probably do need a bit of overall tuning

 

Wizards and Priests - too squishy (although that's a problem with how Health and Constitution work, not the class itself, really), and Wizards have quite a few MEH spells.

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks

Barbarians - they are okay, but they could be better at what they're supposed to do. Currently I prefer them as dual-wield 1H weapons for AoE splash damage and AoE interrupts.

Paladins - in v435 they are a bit weak - Lay on Hands does nothing, Aura range is too close and a few other issues.

 

Post release - I think Endurance/Health and Constitution mechanics need another look, and the game probably needs some more class talents for some classes that gives them a bit more variety.

 

Wizards cannot be so built around self-buffs. They talked about in pax like you could buff up and jump into the fray like a fighter but that seems like a total waste of time in the BB right now. You'd have to spend several actions and spells/day to make yourself an inferior version of another class. It doesn't work at all, especially not with the combat/non-combat situation preventing pre-buffing.

 

If they had a smaller selection of per encounter self-buffs that were more substantial than junk like +20 deflection on a class that's made of paper, maybe the whole gish thing could work out. It seems like it'd be hard to salvage without some pretty dramatic changes though.

____

 

Priests aren't as bad, they are decent enough as a support/healer if you keep them in the back. At least priests have higher health than wizards so they're not as in danger of being actually killed rather than KOed. If they actually wanted them to be in the thick of things they'd need changes though. I would never build a melee priest as they are currently.

____

 

Barbarians I really dunno about since interrupts are borked, but the class relies too much on having melee-heavy fights for its main feature to work, and that makes it too much of a one trick pony IMO. What happens against a mix of caster/ranged and melee when there're only a few melee combatants? Casters are just a far more reliable source of AoE.

 

I think they need a schtick other than AoE melee damage.

____

 

Main issue with Paladins is that you have your once per encounter flames of devotion and then you're spent and are basically an inferior fighter with one modal buff for your party until quite a few levels later.

 

Their revival and debuff removal are nice to have but don't come into play soon enough.

 

I also built a Fire Godlike Paladin of Darcozzi w/the Flame Shield ability, and I've got to ask what is the freaking point in small-damaging abilities if they're entirely negated by DT from most enemies that matter? I was doing like 0-1 damage against a lot of things with the flame shield. And that's with Scion of Flame(I went all-out fire theme).

 

That said, Flames of Devotion can hit like a truck. I'm considering an Arquebus Paladin just to gib things with it for laughs. It'd be a bit difficult to balance multiple Flames /encounter but they need something else.

 

Do you want to work with me on a list of them if the next patch comes out? We can make a list between a few of us and post it on the forums.

 

Some of the defensive/escape abilties (like "escape" for rogue) are in need of tuning. I tried making a mobile rogue but it doesn't work too well when it takes too long to actually use your engagement breaking ability and you get interrupting trying to "cast" it. If an ability is meant to save your bum it needs to be quick and reliable. Worse I think is the shadowing beyond one, since it's only 2/day and incredibly awkward to use.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[jones092201]

1. ranged/melee hybrid

2. ranged has some roots/ DOT effects

3. in melee, you deal damage similar to (but less than) a rogue

 

4. resting with a ranger in your party grants you a small bonus, similar to resting in an inn (bc they are outdoorsman)

 

5. increase movement speed, similar to the barb

 

bonuses to stealth and athletics

 

i'd also love to see class talents that allow for limited tanking. Say, for 10 seconds you're Deflection is increased by a significant amount. 

 

in summation, versatility should be the core concept of the ranger. They are a damage class that can, for short periods, fill the tanking role, and they are strongest when they are able to start at range, then shift to melee.

 

i played Neverwinter a bit, recently, and they did something like this with the Hunter Ranger class...

 

anyways, that's what i'd love to see. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by jones092201

[Sensuki]

They talked about in pax like you could buff up and jump into the fray like a fighter but that seems like a total waste of time in the BB right now.

 

I agree. They're trying to sell the concept rather than what practically works.

 

For the Barbarian, imagine if they had something like a Diablo 2 jump ability - hello mobility. Would be much more useful than Wild Sprint.

 

The range for Rogue Escape is too short, and they can't even jump over rocks or anything.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sensuki

[Gromnir]

 

do Not use ranger/cleric as an example o' what the poe ranger should aspire to be. please.

This. Ranger/Cleric popularity stems largely from the fact that they were basically Clerics who happened to be better than other Clerics. In terms of ethos most people would be hard-pressed to explain what the big difference between a Ranger/Cleric and Fighter/Cleric of a nature deity is supposed to be in the first place. Ranger/Clerics couldn't even scratch the "cunning woodsman skilled with both blade and bow" itch because of their equipment restrictions.

 

the ranger/cleric popularity were hardly just that they were clerics who were better than clerics.  who in their right mind would wanna play a 2ed d&d druid?  the biowarians gave the druids some nice spells and lousy kits.  well, the ranger/cleric could cast all the druid spells without having to be a druid.  the ranger/cleric pc were also a superior melee combatant compared to any joinable npc.  am not even recalling the optimal dual-class split, but  9 levels o' ranger were likely enough to get you near max hps, full dual-wield and access to all the funky druid spells and potential the high-level abilities too.

 

regardless, what made the ranger/cleric most appealing were a misapplication o' d&d rules.  the ranger/cleric shoulda' only had access to ranger spells based on ranger level.  opening up the druid catalog were a mistake even if it technical weren't a bug. get call lightning, insect swarm, ironskins, and summon woodland being while being able to wear metal armour and dual-wield the hammer of thunderbolts and the flail of ages... or improved mace o' disruption if facing undead?  were broken.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[wanderon]

Has anyone done any calculations on what the ranger dps is when the companions damage is added and how that varies based on which companion is chosen?

[Whipstitch]

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks

Yeah, I know that after 4e D&D people get a bad taste in their mouths when someone makes comparisons to MMO classes, but I feel like PoE didn't learn enough from the the trials and tribulations experienced by vanilla World of Warcraft Hunters, who were considered strong solo characters but weren't invited to raids. That's because ranged attacks don't really have magic bullet synergy with tanking and other mixed group tactics all on their own. Unless the enemy has point blank AoE effects there is little difference between damaging a tanked enemy from up close or from far away. Thus, if you want to contribute equally while at range you need to be dealing comparable damage to melee heavy hitters or provide enough utility that you're making up for it in other ways. Just being a strong kiter with a disposable pet doesn't count for much when the group isn't pursuing that strategy in the first place.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Whipstitch

[ISC]

 

Ranger - not very good at either melee or ranged, and their animal companion sucks

Yeah, I know that after 4e D&D people get a bad taste in their mouths when someone makes comparisons to MMO classes, but I feel like PoE didn't learn enough from the the trials and tribulations experienced by vanilla World of Warcraft Hunters, who were considered strong solo characters but weren't invited to raids. That's because ranged attacks don't really have magic bullet synergy with tanking and other mixed group tactics all on their own. Unless the enemy has point blank AoE effects there is little difference between damaging a tanked enemy from up close or from far away. Thus, if you want to contribute equally while at range you need to be dealing comparable damage to melee heavy hitters or provide enough utility that you're making up for it in other ways. Just being a strong kiter with a disposable pet doesn't count for much when the group isn't pursuing that strategy in the first place.

 

 

I dont think that (heavy) ranged weapons are significantly weaker in PoE (please correct me if I'm wrong!). And if so the rogue would have the same problem, but everyone is happy with ranged rogues. 

[Kjaamor]

Conan once killed an evil wizard by throwing a chair at him.

 

I can only hope that the rendition of this in the comic is as wonderful as its depiction in my mind's eye.

[bronzepoem]

give ranger the ability to charm powerful beasts as companions，wahahaha