New Areas: first steps

[Dark_Ansem]

Warning: Image heavy.

 

So, I refuse to give up on this point, and I've decided to do at least the basic steps in creating a new area.

 

This is the base area, from Planescape Torment - Baator.

 

 

This is my first attempt at the Normal Map

 

 

These ones are attempts at the displacement map

 

 

Specular mask

 

 

Ambient occlusion map

 

 

Opinions? I can't quite decide between the first and second Normal Map...

[Bryy]

First one seems like it has more detail to work with down the line.

[Fish]

The process for environment content creation for PoE is fairly involved and will require maps rendered from 3d geometry.  What you have here will unfortunately not work.  A normal map generated from a bitmap image (and any subsequent maps created from that normal map such as AO) will not contain correct information that the game needs.

 

Some of the maps you've generated are also incorrect.  There have been a couple backer updates that got into the tech details, you can see an image that shows the different render passes here:

 

http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0079/pe-passes.jpg

 

and the update has some info on how the render passes work https://eternity.obsidian.net/news/update--79-graphics-and-rendering-

 

The 3d renders provide information that the engine needs to display everything correctly (per-pixel occlusion, dynamic lighting, VFX, etc)

Running an image through bitmap>normal software will give you very inaccurate information and a lot of things won't display properly or work at all.

[Dark_Ansem]

the normal is all right, Fish. Depth of field may be incorrect, but I'll get to that.

I checked with Bester's invaluable 3d asset explorer, and the image is still flat, but with 3d coordinates.

[Rafkos]

Mount & Blade assets are great, shame we can't use them without a license

 

[Dark_Ansem]

it is indeed great!

[Rafkos]

Raw models are pretty easy to make, but textures are always a big obstacle for me Also, I'm going to check if there's a way to generate normals and other image types: http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0079/pe-passes.jpg

[Quantics]

Just to get a better understanding of it: how hard would it be to generate a map with entirely flat terrain (like an arena)?

 

Similarly, how difficult would it be to mod in a completely flat and static map with strictly rectangular buildings?

 

(admittedly such a map would be incredibly boring, but it can be useful as a first step)

[Dark_Ansem]

First one seems like it has more detail to work with down the line.

I can try to get more detail into it, but the problem is that it becomes much more "grainy"

[Zwiebelchen]

I don't think that starting with a 2D image to generate the maps is a good idea; try to use a 3D modeller instead and use the render tools to create the maps.

This is the workflow that Obsidian uses and should bring you much closer to usable results.

 

As a basis, you could use this to extract high definition 3D assets like trees or cobblestones to create a small 3D landscape:

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/free-max-model-villa-environments-house/648735

 

Also, you could extract the trees and buildings from Neverwinter Nights 2 if you need more 3D assets to work with.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Dark_Ansem]

I don't think that starting with a 2D image to generate the maps is a good idea; try to use a 3D modeller instead and use the render tools to create the maps.

This is the workflow that Obsidian uses and should bring you much closer to usable results.

 

As a basis, you could use this to extract high definition 3D assets like trees or cobblestones to create a small 3D landscape:

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/free-max-model-villa-environments-house/648735

 

Also, you could extract the trees and buildings from Neverwinter Nights 2 if you need more 3D assets to work with.

 

but no 3d exists of the incredibly unique style of Planescape Torment, I have so much love for it

[Zwiebelchen]

 

I don't think that starting with a 2D image to generate the maps is a good idea; try to use a 3D modeller instead and use the render tools to create the maps.

This is the workflow that Obsidian uses and should bring you much closer to usable results.

 

As a basis, you could use this to extract high definition 3D assets like trees or cobblestones to create a small 3D landscape:

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/free-max-model-villa-environments-house/648735

 

Also, you could extract the trees and buildings from Neverwinter Nights 2 if you need more 3D assets to work with.

 

but no 3d exists of the incredibly unique style of Planescape Torment, I have so much love for it

 

 

I thought this was about developing a workflow for writing a tutorial...

If not, then sure, go ahead. I'm just saying you are making this way more complicated than it has to be

 

You can easily replicate the 2D image with any 3D modeller and get the benefits of being able to render those maps directly. It's just flat ground with rocks after all...

 

 

Here's a tutorial on generating normal and displacement maps with Blender, a free 3D modelling tool:

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Textures/Influence/Material/Bump_and_Normal

 

 

When I get the time, I will make a tutorial on how to build 3D landscapes from existing assets and rendering the maps with blender.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Dark_Ansem]

 

 

I don't think that starting with a 2D image to generate the maps is a good idea; try to use a 3D modeller instead and use the render tools to create the maps.

This is the workflow that Obsidian uses and should bring you much closer to usable results.

 

As a basis, you could use this to extract high definition 3D assets like trees or cobblestones to create a small 3D landscape:

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/free-max-model-villa-environments-house/648735

 

Also, you could extract the trees and buildings from Neverwinter Nights 2 if you need more 3D assets to work with.

 

but no 3d exists of the incredibly unique style of Planescape Torment, I have so much love for it

 

 

I thought this was about developing a workflow for writing a tutorial...

If not, then sure, go ahead. I'm just saying you are making this way more complicated than it has to be

 

You can easily replicate the 2D image with any 3D modeller and get the benefits of being able to render those maps directly. It's just flat ground with rocks after all...

 

 

Here's a tutorial on generating normal and displacement maps with Blender, a free 3D modelling tool:

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Textures/Influence/Material/Bump_and_Normal

 

 

oh no go ahead I need all the help I can get...

[Zwiebelchen]

K then ... I'll try to make a blender tutorial about how to create a simple PoE-style map this week.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[BMac]

I think you want the first normal map because the red channel represents the x normal - the second one is actually "inside out".

 

There is some pretty cool tech for making normal maps from 2D images (like this recent Kickstarter), but I don't know how you would get a height map out of it, which is what you need to have the terrain occlude things.  3D is the way to go, I think.

[Dark_Ansem]

I think you want the first normal map because the red channel represents the x normal - the second one is actually "inside out".

 

There is some pretty cool tech for making normal maps from 2D images (like this recent Kickstarter), but I don't know how you would get a height map out of it, which is what you need to have the terrain occlude things.  3D is the way to go, I think.

 

well, it's a start! thank you!

I tried a 3d rendering program and in fact, it did work better

[Zwiebelchen]

I've begun writing a tutorial on how to create and render maps on a 3D landscape built using existing free assets and the free blender software. The workflow is almost finished, I just have to find out the correct values to generate the PoE-style maps. Especially the viewing angle and distance is still hard to reproduce as I have to take a guess here...

 

Also, I'm not sure how the depth map works in PoE; in the rendering tech update, the depth information on the building are vertical lines? This is confusing to me, as I thought the depth map is greyscale and represents the height of an object. I don't see why there should be vertical lines on the building seen in the tech demo. Can a dev maybe chime in and help me on this please?

 

I'm taking my info from this:

http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0079/pe-passes.jpg

 

From the Tech demo, everything else is pretty much clear to me:

1) the "final" map is the textured and lit overlay; pretty much the final render of the scene

2) the "normal" map is an ordinary normal map

3) the "depth" map contains the z-height of an object for occlusion... however, I don't get the issue with the building: Why are there vertical lines there? Makes no sense to me; Also, why is the upper part of the wall on the left side of the image white, not grey? If darker means higher, why is it brighter than the walkable ground?

4) the "albedo" map contains the surface textures without shading; it's pretty much what happens if you have a global 100% diffuse light source enabled.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Zwiebelchen]

So here is a quick demo scene I made from using some free models from the web, which I will use to render the normal and depth map for testing purposes:

 

[Dark_Ansem]

it looks similar to Baldur's gate style...

[Fish]

I know you guys are just trying to figure out a basic workflow for this right now, but I want to give you a heads up.  If and when Obsidian releases the export tools for PoE, you will need to use Maya to make your scenes.  The Streamtile tool was written for Maya and utilizes the MIA_X_Passes materials for Mental Ray to export the various render passes.

 

Edit: You can build the scenes using whatever 3d application you want but it will need to be rendered in Maya using Mental Ray and MIA_X_Passes materials.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Fish

[BAdler]

You guys probably don't realize, but Fish is actually Paul Fish. Former Obsidianite and all around awesome dude. He actually worked using the workflow he describes.

 

Sorry for outing you, Fish!

 

-B

[Lephys]

I was wondering! His post sounded very informed, and I thought it a bit odd if he was just some random stranger, heh.

 

Also, "obsidianite" sounds like something you mine to make Obsidian equipment. Because, as we know from crafting games, everything has an ore.

[Zwiebelchen]

You guys probably don't realize, but Fish is actually Paul Fish. Former Obsidianite and all around awesome dude. He actually worked using the workflow he describes.

 

Sorry for outing you, Fish!

 

-B

 

Hmm... so in case we get the export tools (btw, what are the chances for that? Are they licensed or did you guys code them?), we just click a button in Maya and get all the maps? If so, awesome! I can probably get my hand on a free students license of Maya... I had a lot of trouble tinkering in Blender to get the normal map as they were in the tech demo. I couldn't figure out how to do the depth map yet.

 

 

As you guys have probably seen, I'm currently writing a tutorial about the rendering process with Blender:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70902-tutorial-how-to-render-landscapes-made-in-blender-w-normals-depth-and-albedo/

 

I still couldn't really figure out how to shift the result into the desired color range. I photoshopped the result to look like in the tech demo, but I'm still not 100% there. Also, the depth map is still confusing the **** out of me; I don't know how to generate that or even why it's like that.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Fish]

IIRC the tool is a plugin for Maya that was written by Obsidian specifically for the project (don't quote me on that though).

[WorstUsernameEver]

You guys probably don't realize, but Fish is actually Paul Fish.

Masterful disguise.