Best focus for 2h and dualwield?

[mrmonocle]

Advise, please.

[Luckmann]

Elaborate, if you may.

[mrmonocle]

a focus includes a range of weapons, so the question is which focus contains better options for 2h and which - for dualwield.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The best answer anyone has right now is "it depends." Right now the "best weapon" is really situational. That said ruffian group seems decent for dual-weilders and whichever group has the Estoc is probably pretty good for two-handers -- in both cases because Piercing damage seems to be good against high end armor and because damage reduction is really important.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Karkarov]

Soldier has the great sword and the arquebus.  Adventurer has the estoc and the so so war bow.  They are likely the best ... two hand specs in my opinion.

 

Ruffian and Knight are probably the best for duel wielding since they get like mace, sword and the sabres respectively.  Noble isn't bad if you want to be mr rapier dandy... since it has rapiers.

[Sock]

Noble is one of the better ones for dual wielding, IMO. Dagger, mace, and rapier. That's 3 damage types you'd have available.

[Whipstitch]

This seems as good a place as any to put my thoughts regarding each focus talent.

 

Adventurer: pollaxe, estoc, flail, wand and warbow

If your idea of a "balanced" load out is switching from one 2-handed weapon to a different 2-handed weapon, then boy, do I have the focus for you! Alright, snark aside, it's actually a pretty defensible idea in this case. All other things being equal, the estoc is the single hardest hitting 2 hander in the game thanks to it's natural armor penetration while the pollax's best of crush/slash damage typing nicely squishes the odd critter that turns out to be ridiculously resistant to piercing damage. In the end someone so dedicated to 2-handers will probably pick one weapon and throw all their money at optimizing it, but hey, if you're going to do that, you may as well do it with an estoc! Flails are nothing to write home about but wands and warbows are both decent enough. I could see someone making a case for a priest, rogue or chanter who mostly plinks from the back but pulls out the ol' 2-hander when they're sure they can enter combat without being engaged.

 

Knight: battle axe, sword, morning star and crossbow

This one is pretty decent if you want to fight at range with a crossbow but there's better focuses if you intend to mostly be in melee. Morning stars are decent enough weapons but until I see the incoming interrupt changes in action it's awful hard to recommend them over the estocs and pollaxes. I'm not particularly fond of battle axes or swords but I'd take them over fast weapons as a crossbowman's emergency weapon-and-shield swap.  

 

Noble: dagger, rapier, mace, sceptre and rod

I don't care for daggers or rapiers but anything with maces can't be all bad. This also covers 2 out of 3 implements, which is also pretty cool even if wizards would probably look to Blast and maybe Penetrating Shots before giving this talent a serious look.

 

Peasant: hatchet, spear, quarterstaff, hunting bow and unarmed
I don't have much nice to say about this one, since it's pretty niche. Hatchets are best used on characters who genuinely don't give a crap about their auto attack damage, in which case they have better things to do than to blow a talent on weapon accuracy--for example, I've cheerily used a hatchet on on a tanky chanter right before he blew people's doors off with Thrice Justly Avenged. Hunting bows can actually be pretty decent when supported by chanter and ranger abilities but even then you'd rather grab Penetrating Shot before giving this talent the time of day.

 

Ruffian: sabre, stilleto, club, pistol and blunderbuss

Actually trying to deal serious damage with one handed weapons is a bit niche in this game, but if you're going to do it then sabres and stilletos are the best weapons aside from maces. Where this talent really shines is by pairing good 1-handers with the blunderbuss, making it a nice choice for rogues and other accurate classes who want to minimize grazes and do some nice spike damage at range before picking off people in melee.

 

Soldier: great sword, pike, war hammer, arbalest and arquebus

This one's probably my favorite overall. Much like the Ruffian talent the nicest thing about this one is the way it helps otherwise melee oriented characters participate in strong opening volleys. Firing off a single shot from an arquebus or arbalest before introducing people to the business end of your pike or greatsword is a great way to get the party started. I'm a bit less enthusiastic about war hammers, but they're still quite decent. In fact, in the absence of Lead Splitter or Penetrating Shot one could make a pretty decent argument that the gap between a war hammer and a sabre is less than the gap between one shot from a blunderbuss and one shot from an arbalest or arquebus, so I wouldn't be shocked to see someone dual wielding them.

 

In the end, I'd expect to see Soldier, Adventurer and Ruffian to be selected the most, in part because they're tailored to characters who genuinely care about auto attack damage as part of their main shtick--I'd expect to see a lot of support characters packing a mace and a shield or a war or crossbow, but I'd also expect them to be more aggressive about spending their talents elsewhere.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Odd Hermit]

Soldier for 2h(Great Sword, Pike), Ruffian for 1h(stiletto). Noble for Wizards if you're gonna go the blast talent route.

 

I like having everyone with a solid ranged weapon when I have enemies all CCed in big AoEs, so I go for Arquebus/Arbalest/Blunderbuss. Although in the BB it's awhile before you can equip everyone with what you want so I skip focus on some characters while I'm just using whatever is available. The Pike is also a nice back-up melee weapon, with its reach you can hit things in clusters easier with a support character. I like it on my druid, since I want returning storm to be hitting stuff but I don't quite want him on the front line.

 

Knight is decent for Morning Star/Crossbow too.

 

I agree with most of what whipstitch says above. Peasant is pretty awful...I know it's called "Peasant" but still!

 

Adventurer I've been staying away from as it's too pigeon-holey for my style. It's basically the Estoc or nothing.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Ruffian is also a good choice for ciphers. Good burst damage with the blunderbuss, cast till you run out of focus, decent emergency melee options.

[wanderon]

It will be interesting to see how slowly/quickly we will be able to equip the group in the full game - I have the feeling it will be much slower than the BB and then of course the companions may be somewhat committed to certain weapons/styles when you meet them.

[mrmonocle]

Tried Estoc+savage attack+confident aim+focus+mastery+exceptional quality+accurate2 no paladin aura, turned out pretty damn critty. A steady 50+ damage.

[Gromnir]

Advise, please.

the question identifies the problem: why equip a larger one-handed weapon?  there is gonna be some few situations in which Gromnir has weapon focus X but the weapon we typical use is poor for overcoming a particular foe's dt... or are we calling it dr this week?  regardless, in most situations, Gromnir is either dual-wielding the fast one-handed weapons, or we is gonna choose a two-handed weapon.

 

ruffian is ideal for dual-wielders because you get stiletto and clubs, and if absolute necessary you can switch to a sabre when you need a slash weapon.  noble is arguably an equal viable option with both rapier and daggers for your fast weapons covering pierce and slash damage and a mace for crushing stuff.  

 

adventurer appears ideal for 2h folks... ridiculously ideal.  estoc is a pierce weapon.  the poleaxe is slash/crush.  well golly, this is gonna be a difficult choice when we compare with every other focus that at best has a single 2h option that does a single damage type.

 

dunno, were this a trick question?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps please note that as soon as we know the actual weapons in the game, the answers is gonna change.  find out that the best 2h weapon in the game is a greatsword, and that the second best 2h weapon is a distant second at best, would considerable change the debate.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Gromnir

[Odd Hermit]

It will be interesting to see how slowly/quickly we will be able to equip the group in the full game - I have the feeling it will be much slower than the BB and then of course the companions may be somewhat committed to certain weapons/styles when you meet them.

 

Ugh I hope not. One thing I don't like in the BB is how limited I am at the beginning. I think at least the basic weapons of all types should be available. If I start a character out with a Soldier Focus yet can't access an Arbalest or Arquebus for a long time, that just sucks.

 

And I'm not going to pick focus talents based upon early game availability either.

[Lephys]

I do really hope the final game lets you pick your starting gear (from a select list, of course). It sucks to pick Weapon Focus - Noble, only to not have access to a rapier. 8P

 

I know we currently don't pick any Talents at level 1, but I really hope that changes (and we get to select SOME kind of extra talent-like customization at level 1 -- we're not fetii, after all. I'm sure a fully-adult, level-1 character has already developed SOME kind of specialization for something adventuring-related.)

[Whipstitch]

You mean like, a class or something?

[wanderon]

Class would be classier with a classy talent! 

[Lephys]

Yes. Like a class. You know, like Scythe-Wizard.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Lephys

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

ps please note that as soon as we know the actual weapons in the game, the answers is gonna change.  find out that the best 2h weapon in the game is a greatsword, and that the second best 2h weapon is a distant second at best, would considerable change the debate.

 

 

 

I *suspect* that the enchantment system is going to make things pretty customizable. It doesn't really seem like there's going to be a single "best weapon" so much as a "best set of options / build", though I suspect that the -DR enchantment is going to be pretty universally popular.

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

ps please note that as soon as we know the actual weapons in the game, the answers is gonna change.  find out that the best 2h weapon in the game is a greatsword, and that the second best 2h weapon is a distant second at best, would considerable change the debate.

 

 

 

I *suspect* that the enchantment system is going to make things pretty customizable. It doesn't really seem like there's going to be a single "best weapon" so much as a "best set of options / build", though I suspect that the -DR enchantment is going to be pretty universally popular.

 

 

I don't know. Currently, there's some real wonkyness going on in the optimization department when it comes to weapons, and lighter weapons are quite clearly underpowered compared to high-penetration heavy weapons, and Dueling is quite clearly the worst.

 

 

Which is all kinds of funny, because I'm planning on playing a high-resolve paladin dueling with a rapier. So unless things change I'm pretty screwed on all counts.

 

[mrmonocle]

rapier and resolve don't add up kinda... Pollax and resolve do!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I don't know. Currently, there's some real wonkyness going on in the optimization department when it comes to weapons, and lighter weapons are quite clearly underpowered compared to high-penetration heavy weapons, and Dueling is quite clearly the worst.

 

 

Which is all kinds of funny, because I'm planning on playing a high-resolve paladin dueling with a rapier. So unless things change I'm pretty screwed on all counts.

 

 

 

 

Right, right. I just meant more that I doubt there will be a single item that's the "best sword" or the "best Blunderbuss" or whatever in the game. Like, Leadspitter is pretty inarguably the best weapon in the Backer Beta, but you could take a normal Blunderbuss and put a -5 DT enchantment on it and a x2 damage enchantment on it and get an equivalent weapon. I think most of the found & quest items follow the same "rules" that crafted ones do.

[Shevek]

All this talk of 2h vs dw... I really wish they would have made one handed style better than it is (nothing in offhand). Once the full game is out, I am sure small balance stuff like that will be (hopefully) easy to modify.

 

I remember mucking about with 2da files to make 1 handed style more worth it in the IE games as well.

 

I am already thinking that 1w style should have something along the lines of dt bypass (that scales with weapon quality) in addition to accuracy to help make it different from the other styles (2h is raw dmg & reach on some weaps, dw is interupt/dmg vs clothies, s&b is defense, 1w should be about breaking thru defenses hence accuracy and dt bypass).

Edited March 4, 2015 by Shevek

[wanderon]

 

 

I don't know. Currently, there's some real wonkyness going on in the optimization department when it comes to weapons, and lighter weapons are quite clearly underpowered compared to high-penetration heavy weapons, and Dueling is quite clearly the worst.

 

 

Which is all kinds of funny, because I'm planning on playing a high-resolve paladin dueling with a rapier. So unless things change I'm pretty screwed on all counts.

 

 

 

 

Right, right. I just meant more that I doubt there will be a single item that's the "best sword" or the "best Blunderbuss" or whatever in the game. Like, Leadspitter is pretty inarguably the best weapon in the Backer Beta, but you could take a normal Blunderbuss and put a -5 DT enchantment on it and a x2 damage enchantment on it and get an equivalent weapon. I think most of the found & quest items follow the same "rules" that crafted ones do.

 

 

I don't know about there being a "best" but there was mention in an article about how much optional content (not tied to main questline) there is in the game (2/3) that one of the reasons players may choose to partake of it was all the cool stuff they may find. 

[Whipstitch]

Let's be real here: there's less than a month left. If you really want to make the styles more balanced at this late juncture you need to bite the bullet, accept some parity and address weaknesses as well as strengths.

 

For example, let's look at dual wielding. Right now, the thing to do for most classes is to take Vulnerable Attack because it gives the DT penetration that the style so desperately needs. Then--two levels later!--you can take Two Weapon Style to offset the attack speed penalty applied by turning on Vulnerable Attack. So, I have to ask: Why not just cut out the middle man and have Two Weapon Style provide some DT penetration in the first place? It's what the style desperately needs and when paired with Vulnerable Attack you could actually deal serious melee damage to heavily armored people without being a rogue or having a buttload of enchantments for once.

 

I'm afraid I can't agree with the characterization of the single 1 hander as a "small" balance problem. I actually think pure 1 handed style is a blight and should never have been offered as a viable option in its own right. That's because straight away you run into the issue where you have weapons that are supposed to be balanced whether they're being used to take up 1 item slot or 2, which has nasty interactions with enchantments that do things other than provide on-hit damage. It's an ugly problem and one that most games don't bother with for a reason. And no, I don't think special enchantments or a special "can only be wielded with both hands available but it totally isn't a 2-hander, I swear it!" tag is an acceptable solution, since frankly i think this game would have been better balanced had they taken on less weapon types to begin with. But I guess if we're stuck with 1 handed style then I think the obvious thing to do is to make the style provide a bonus to both critical and standard damage. It's not a perfect solution, but I doubt we'll ever see one where this style is concerned.

 

As for two handed weapons, they're the one style that seems to get broad approval. Their talent could easily remain the same or be replaced with an attack speed bonus instead if you're committed to giving each style a different bonus. That'd flatten out their spike damage a little bit compared to the old talent but of all the weapons 2 handers are by far the most well-equipped to get by with just their standard damage code.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Shevek]

One handed style should be available and viable for both heavy and light 1 handers. I think it is more common than dual wielding and that should count for something in a game going for a mundane fantasy aesthetic by a lead dev focused on history and balanced mechanics. It shouldnt need special style only weapons or other such foolishness. It should just be balanced around a different gameplay style. This could be dt bypass (as I mentioned) but it could also be any number of other things (counterattacking, etc).

 

I think I will just mod in a flat 3 dt bypass in my game that stacks with the accuracy bonus (if I can figure out Unity). That seems ok enough to make it worth it while not being terribly OP.