Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Blarghagh]

Does that count as "women being driven away" or "feminists being driven away", however? Both are very different situations. Phil Fish isn't a woman, after all, and when all is said and done he is the one that has been "harmed" most by #GamerGate and is the one that actually left the game industry. That sounds very much like STEM is unwelcome to men by what the "narrative" seems to be. All the other feminists involved in the controversy right now just seemed to have been spurned on to fight back and stay - that seems hardly "chased away".

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Does that count as "women being driven away" or "feminists being driven away", however? Both are very different situations. Phil Fish isn't a woman, after all, and when all is said and done he is the one that has been "harmed" most by #GamerGate and is the one that actually left the game industry. That sounds very much like STEM is unwelcome to men by what the "narrative" seems to be.

 

The narrative is stupid and gaming journalism is a joke. That much we've quite established earlier.

 

I don't think "women are chased away from the industry by a certain subsegment of gamergate supporters because they're feminists" is meaningfully different from "women are chased away from the industry by a certain subsegment of gamergate supporters", if we're looking at the question "are women getting chased away from the industry by gamergate?", which the original post sparking the whole disagreement was doing.

 

 

Edit: I mean, it's not like "eh, they're feminists, they don't matter" was ever a valid line of argument. (Not like anyone here was saying so, but still.)

Edited March 3, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Blarghagh]

I certainly think it's meaningfully different. The operative part in your post is "woman are chased away" with feminist being a qualifier but that doesn't work because the operative part is feminists, with women being a qualifier. What high profile feminist personality in the game industry actually left the game industry? Phil Fish. Who else? None as far as I know, but to be fair I'm not completely certain about Zoe Quinn and whether or not she's still making games.

 

I'm not trying to defend the part of #GamerGate that harasses, I just think #GamerGate making the industry less welcoming for women as a whole at this point is a pretty unsubstantiated claim. I'm sure there are cases of the game industry being unwelcoming to women, but I haven't seen anything to justify a claim that it's symptomatic of the core industry rather than cases of individual sexism from men. I believe recent research showed that game development employs a lot more women than most comparable fields [citation needed]? I think there is a lot of hyperbole involved in gender discussions and it's more interesting to look if there are actual facts. Your friends seem to have been "chased away" by the "narrative" instead of anything that is actually relevant or true as far as I can see.

 

I'm not saying the current situation is adequate, by the way. I'd love more women and minorities in game development. I'm just not sure the way some people are trying to go about it is helpful rather than damaging.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Your friends seem to have been "chased away" by the "narrative" instead of anything that is actually relevant or true as far as I can see.

 

If my friends are feminists (who are also women), and see the gaming industry as an unwelcoming environment to feminists, so decide to bolt, they're not being chased away by the narrative, they're chased away by the environment being highly unwelcoming to feminists.

 

The fact that they're women is secondary to this, but not irrelevant to a separate discussion about gamergate being responsible for women being chased away from the industry. I mean, the result is that women are being chased away, whether they're chased away for being feminists, or for being women.

[Malcador]

Well, is it really something to worry about if some people are scared off an industry from the perception their ideology is unpopular in it ?

[Namutree]

 

Your friends seem to have been "chased away" by the "narrative" instead of anything that is actually relevant or true as far as I can see.

 

If my friends are feminists (who are also women), and see the gaming industry as an unwelcoming environment to feminists, so decide to bolt, they're not being chased away by the narrative, they're chased away by the environment being highly unwelcoming to feminists.

 

The fact that they're women is secondary to this, but not irrelevant to a separate discussion about gamergate being responsible for women being chased away from the industry. I mean, the result is that women are being chased away, whether they're chased away for being feminists, or for being women.

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that. 

 

Feminism has nothing to do with game design so there's no reason to think their views will even come up.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Well, is it really something to worry about if some people are scared off an industry from the perception their ideology is unpopular in it ?

 

Kirottu was making a claim that gamergate hasn't chased away any women from the industry. I brought up an example of this not being true. I didn't voice worry, I voiced that he was factually wrong.

[Namutree]

Well, is it really something to worry about if some people are scared off an industry from the perception their ideology is unpopular in it ?

If this becomes common then feminists are in big trouble since feminism is unpopular in general and thus unpopular in nearly all industries.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that. 

 

 

People who are outspoken feminists getting rape and death threats definitely constitutes as an unwelcoming environment for feminists, in my opinion.

 

Self-identified gamergaters in the appropriate *chan sites talking in great detail about bombarding them with those rape and death threats constitutes as GG being responsible for it. (Not in the collective responsibility sense - ie. every gamergater is personally responsible for the actions of those individuals -, but in the sense of "some people who are gamergaters do send those things".)

[Blarghagh]

I didn't say the fact they are women is irrelevant, just not the operative factor. It means that, as evidenced by Phil Fish, it's an ideological issue and not a gender issue. That ideology may pertain to gender, but the gender of the victims isn't the most important thing to focus on.

 

You clarify yourself that they may decide to bolt because they see the gaming industry as an unwelcoming environment. Then you make a bit of a leap to say that it actually is highly unwelcoming to feminists. If the reason they see it that way is because of #GamerGate, then it's quite likely their exposure to #GamerGate has come from the media (i.e. "the narrative"). That's not even getting into the fact gaming fandom and the game industry are being conflated here. At most, from #GamerGate one could infer that gaming fandom is unfriendly to feminists. The actual game industry has remained largely unaffected (and silent) regarding #GamerGate. You were speaking about it with Longknife in the same terms of how there aren't enough women in STEM because the actual work environment is unfriendly to women. #GamerGate doesn't affect that in any relevant way I can see, if I'm totally honest.

 

Let's think again in terms of the #GamerGate "sides". Perhaps it was for "PR" or "out of Spite", but the "pro-" #GamerGate has gotten several women's charities and games by female developers funded. They got games by female developers greenlit. They push the voices of female developers involved to the forefront, even if it is only those that agree with them. What about the "anti-" #GamerGate "side"? They tried to block all those things from happening, and actively marginalize female voices who voice their own opinion if it doesn't agree with them ("sockpuppets") - all of their own initiatives look to have failed, at least from my point of view. In terms of actually doing things that are friendly to female developers, so far "pro-" #GamerGate looks to be getting ahead?

 

EDIT: Oh man, so many posts while I was writing this. I'm going to stop until I can actually focus on it, spent too much of my workday lounging around here.

Edited March 3, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[Meshugger]

This is quite fascinating. I always assumed that people went into the industry that they like or have proficiency for. If the workplace did not work out in any way or the other, they just switched to another job in the same industry. For example, If you love plumbing you look around until you find a good firm or employer, what more is needed?

 

Who the discusses politics in the workplace to begin with? Professionalism is expected.

[Blarghagh]

You clearly have never worked at an indie game developer. Most people become game developers because they have a passion for it anyway.

 

Here's an interesting point. I read that the average time people spend working in the game industry is 4 years, which is an incredibly low number especially factoring in your Carmacks and such that have always been at it. Instead of focusing on it being unfriendly to women, maybe it should be pointed out that it's pretty much unfriendly to everyone.

 

Here's an example from a few years back that really isn't that far out of the norm.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

You clarify yourself that they may decide to bolt because they see the gaming industry as an unwelcoming environment. Then you make a bit of a leap to say that it actually is highly unwelcoming to feminists. If the reason they see it that way is because of #GamerGate, then it's quite likely their exposure to #GamerGate has come from the media (i.e. "the narrative").

 

 

Again, I see no meaningful difference between "the gaming industry is a hostile environment to feminists" and "if you work in the gaming industry as an outspoken feminist, you will get death and rape threats". The outcome is, in both cases, that outspoken feminists are getting an incredibly hostile response. It's simply not a pleasant work environment.

 

If we're looking at it from the perspective of a feminist woman thinking about working in game development, the end result is the same.

 

Also, I feel that your perspective here may be a little skewed. To you, GG is this small microenvironment of, like, what? 20 people? If your exposure is limited to this, it's easy to see the movement as fundamentally reasonable. But to the rest of the world, it's the kiddie-porn filled cesspool of 8chan with its few thousands of followers, in all of its furiously misogynistic glory. "The narrative" has nothing to do with it, the fact that there is a very vocal subsegment of gamergaters who are essentially the scum of the earth (no hyperbole intended; you can't get much lower than pandering to paedophiles) has.

 

 

 

Let's think again in terms of the #GamerGate "sides". Perhaps it was for "PR" or "out of Spite", but the "pro-" #GamerGate has gotten several women's charities and games by female developers funded. They got games by female developers greenlit. They push the voices of female developers involved to the forefront, even if it is only those that agree with them. What about the "anti-" #GamerGate "side"? They tried to block all those things from happening, and actively marginalize female voices who voice their own opinion if it doesn't agree with them ("sockpuppets") - all of their own initiatives look to have failed, at least from my point of view. In terms of actually doing things that are friendly to female developers, so far "pro-" #GamerGate looks to be getting ahead?

 

 

I think the key here is "looks".

 

I mean, TFYC surely looks like an admirable initiative, but it fails to accomplish much: it's basically using a woman as an "ideas person", but the industry already has more people like that than it can use, so I find it doubtful that it will manage to get women into the industry in the long term. And due to how the thing is worded, nobody will see a penny out of it if the end product doesn't turn a profit. Okay, it's better than nothing, but I think (f'rex) the charity KaineParker has linked to in a much, much earlier incarnation of the thread is a much more efficient way of actually helping women.

 

Also, it hinges on the assumption that the anti-GG side doesn't fund charities, which, going by the example of my anti-GG-leaning friends, is blatantly false. They just don't feel a need to make the whole world know about it.

 

 

 

That said, I'll concede the point that after taking these into account, from a utilitarian perspective, GG probably did more good than bad re:chasing women away from the industry. From a deontological standpoint, I still find the movement reprehensible (present company excluded), but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Edited March 3, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Namutree]

 

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that. 

 

 

People who are outspoken feminists getting rape and death threats definitely constitutes as an unwelcoming environment for feminists, in my opinion.

 

Self-identified gamergaters in the appropriate *chan sites talking in great detail about bombarding them with those rape and death threats constitutes as GG being responsible for it. (Not in the collective responsibility sense - ie. every gamergater is personally responsible for the actions of those individuals -, but in the sense of "some people who are gamergaters do send those things".)

 

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that. 

 

 

People who are outspoken feminists getting rape and death threats definitely constitutes as an unwelcoming environment for feminists, in my opinion.

 

Self-identified gamergaters in the appropriate *chan sites talking in great detail about bombarding them with those rape and death threats constitutes as GG being responsible for it. (Not in the collective responsibility sense - ie. every gamergater is personally responsible for the actions of those individuals -, but in the sense of "some people who are gamergaters do send those things".)

 

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

 

Yesterday a guy in a TF2 server I was playing started swearing at me and telling me he was gonna rape my parents. Not jokingly either, cause he talked **** any time he or I died. I never said a word to him either.

 

In retrospect, I should've recorded and uploaded it.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You clearly have never worked at an indie game developer. Most people become game developers because they have a passion for it anyway.

 

Here's an interesting point. I read that the average time people spend working in the game industry is 4 years, which is an incredibly low number especially factoring in your Carmacks and such that have always been at it. Instead of focusing on it being unfriendly to women, maybe it should be pointed out that it's pretty much unfriendly to everyone.

 

Here's an example from a few years back that really isn't that far out of the norm.

Well from what I've read/heard, you're looking at over 40 hour weeks with relatively low pay in highly demanding positions so that isn't a farfetched possibility.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that.

 

 

People who are outspoken feminists getting rape and death threats definitely constitutes as an unwelcoming environment for feminists, in my opinion.

 

Self-identified gamergaters in the appropriate *chan sites talking in great detail about bombarding them with those rape and death threats constitutes as GG being responsible for it. (Not in the collective responsibility sense - ie. every gamergater is personally responsible for the actions of those individuals -, but in the sense of "some people who are gamergaters do send those things".)

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

That's been my experience as well. Although I find someone threatening me with "**** your ass till it ****ing bleeds" more funny than anything.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

 

 

It's a question of volume, really. When the signal to noise ratio reaches the point of making personal communication over the internet unviable, your situation is a bit different than "somebody called me rude names in TF2".

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

On what basis is this an unwelcoming environment for feminists? If they think the game industry is unwelcoming to feminists then the problem is their own ignorance and no, GG isn't responsible for that. 

 

 

People who are outspoken feminists getting rape and death threats definitely constitutes as an unwelcoming environment for feminists, in my opinion.

 

Self-identified gamergaters in the appropriate *chan sites talking in great detail about bombarding them with those rape and death threats constitutes as GG being responsible for it. (Not in the collective responsibility sense - ie. every gamergater is personally responsible for the actions of those individuals -, but in the sense of "some people who are gamergaters do send those things".)

 

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

 

 

Nope, no one has ever threatened to rape or kill me on the Internet.... it must just be you guys 

[Amentep]

 

If there are women that get scared away from the industry then all the more reason to stop with the fear mongering and hysteria. There is no "campaign to drive women out of the industry". It's laughable. It only exists in SJW imagination. It's a paper tiger made up of a handful of nobodies.

I'd say the interview Malc linked is relevant here. Perhaps it's elitist of me, but I'd take Jade Raymond's word on how the videogame industry is over that of relative outsiders.

 

Archive for those who don't want to give Polygon clicks: https://archive.today/wBqeF

 

I wasn't familiar with Ms. Raymond (having never played an AC game before). I googled her and one of the first links I found was a demotivational poster implying that she was the "leader" of the team because she was attractive, not because she was talented or skilled at game development.

 

I bring this up because I think it dovetails nicely into Namutree's observation -

 

Anyone on the internet with an opinion gets rape and death threats. Or, maybe that was just me. At the very least that's been my experience and has always been my impression of the internet.

I've been online since about 1993 (and boy are my wireless routers tired!) and there have been annonymous people spreading hate and death threats (or even just character assasination and aspersions) at that time. The idea that the anonymous person who gets their jolies from posting death threats or doxxing people is specific to gaming is wrong - its something specific to the internet.

 

Now that's not to say its right, but I think anti & pro Gamergaters both have to be careful that people who really have no interest in gaming but a high interest in ****ting on everything they can don't hijack any legitimate point they have (and to be fair, both sides at their core have decent points to make even if they don't always succeed in bringing that signal forth due to all the noise).

[Blarghagh]

Alum, your post is rather big so I'm not going to quote it. My only real response to it is that I'm acutely aware of the movement's size and the more unsavory elements of the movement and have actually received a fair amount of abuse from them myself. Yet as a game developer I have been much more guarded with my identity since this controversy started not because of 8-chan's wretched hive of scum and villainy but because of the other side. I've gotten internet death threats before and they don't worry me, what does worry me is anti-#GamerGate's tendency to contact peoples employers, send ambulances to people's homes and make false sexual harassment claims to the police. As a personal matter for me (so not immediately relevant to anyone else) I find that to make the industry much more unwelcoming than the white noise of chan culture.

 

I also like to focus on the people in #GamerGate who actually do care about ethics because nobody else seems to be acknowledging them, favouring letting harassers guide the conversation.

[Fighter]

Famous people get harassed. Maybe feminists specifically get harassed more than others I don't know. But I would sure like to see concrete comparative numbers not colored by perception. And people become famous when all these media types jump onto a harassment incident and furthermore manage to misrepresent the real picture. It only feeds the fire.

 

Anyone can end up in that position, anyone at all. If you spend your days being outspoken, you will have people anonymously cuss at you or tell you that you should have your face kicked in. If you've ever said anything forceful in a heated youtube thread or on twitter then you've had that experience.

 

If you spend your days collecting all this stuff and putting it out there. And if the media would be willing to jump on your case (which they are extremely happy to do when it's a feminist) and make loud headlines starting this whole hysteria cycle, you'll be where some of these personalities are. If you think it's only women though then you haven't heard of Phil Fish, what he has in common with someone like say Brianna Wu is the media attention and that they engage the trolls in the worst ways.

 

A tiny percentage of people have the ability to conjugate into mobs on the internet. Even 20 people attacking you may seem like a mob. I don't really know how to make that go away but for starters the media can be factual and honest about it. And maybe one should think that it's ridiculous that a tiny amount of anons can have that kind of influence on your life.

[Malcador]

It's a question of volume, really. When the signal to noise ratio reaches the point of making personal communication over the internet unviable, your situation is a bit different than "somebody called me rude names in TF2".

Hardly the case now, so one's public Twitter feed gets swamped with crap, if one is a notable person this is expected and desired in some cases (publicity). You can still communicate with people via, y'know, email or the legion of IM utilities, newsgroups.

[Blarghagh]

I believe Anita Sarkeesian, the most high profile target, posted a week's worth of the abuse she gets recently. Was mostly people cursing at her.

[Fighter]

Ironically the existence of anti-gg sentiment and the things that have come from that camp, which are those very same harassment, threats, doxxing that gg is blamed for, has proved a MASSIVE point. They even took it a step further by harassing anyone they can in real life by going after their jobs and livelihood. Their existence should tell you EVERYTHING really.

 

That is that gamers are not special. That even people who proclaim to be for social justice and equality are exactly the same. As a group they are almost exactly like the people they oppose. They have spawned the exact same behavior thus proving this point in a most spectacular way. Even the *gasp* feminists will and do harass and threaten people they disagree with. Gamers are no more a cesspool of hate than any one large group out there is.

 

Which brings us to the media and the way they report things. That is things are excused, ignored, or glossed over, when it's a group they like.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Fighter