[435] Loot list / container issues

[Sensuki]

Loot container in Lle A Rhemen southernmost hallway loot can be of random value between 50cp (one gem) to ~300cp+ (two gems and a fine suit of armor) - this is incredibly wonky to me, and even worse than Icewind Dale with it's save-scum promoting loot.

 

I haven't properly tested other containers in the beta, but I think I will now, after encountering this issue.

I will save scum my save in this corridor to produce the optimal loot.

 

Attempt #1

 

Brigandine (60cp) and two Velunes (2x65cp) = 190cp

Attempt #2

 

 

1 Velune (65cp) = 65cp

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Attempt #3

 

 

Padded Armor (40cp) and 1 Peridot (50cp) = 90cp

 

Attempt #4

 

 

Two Peridots (2x50cp) = 100cp

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Attempt #5

 

 

Padded Armor (40cp) and 2 Peridots (2x50cp) = 140cp

 

Attempt #6

 

 

Jackpot

Fine Mail Armor (240cp) and 1 Peridot (50cp) = 290cp

This approach to loot encourages save scumming until you get the best result, so I would recommend normalizing containers so that you don't have cases where you randomly don't get any armor, or randomly get different qualities of armor - at the very least.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Now for another prominent container in the game - the locked chest in Dracogen Inn Level 2

 

Attempt #1:

 

Mace (5cp) + Potion of Minor Recovery (60cp) + 391 cp = 456cp

 

Attempt #2:

 

Battle Axe (5cp) + Scroll of Revival (100cp) + 295 cp = 400cp

Attempt #3:

 

55 Silver Fenning = 330cp

Attempt #4

 

 

Hunting Bow (5cp) + 195 cp = 200 cp 

 

Attempt #5:

 

230 cp
 

Attempt #6:
 

 

Crossbow (10cp) + 183 cp = 193 cp   

With six attempts, you are given loot of random value between 193cp (or less) and 456cp+. Sometimes you get a weapon. Sometimes you get plain gold. Sometimes you get a weapon, a consumable and gold. Very inconsistent.

For this one, I would say that you should always get a random consumable, and always get a standard quality weapon.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

 

Another Dracogen chest

 

Seems like many containers just have an entry from the same loot list, and random do and don't give certain item types.

I'm not a fan of random container loot (and I'm absolutely sick of it in modern games), but can you please normalize the item types you get from the containers.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[iampolo]

What you want is randomized loot but of the same value, or at least a smallest value range? 

[ushas]

Three more containers from the central area of Skaen dungeon:

 

Chest:
1) 288 cp
2) 870 cp
3) Pearl (100 cp) + 431 cp 
4) 2 x Opal (2 x 150 cp) + 642 cp 
5) Fine Sceptre (205 cp) + Garnet (85 cp) + 576 cp
6) 912 cp                      
7) 336 cp
8) 8. 2 x Opal (2 x 150 cp) + 450 cp   
9) 2 x Garnet (2 x 85 cp) + 732  cp    
10) Pearl (100 cp) + 402  cp

Except occasional Fine Sceptre/Rod, or so, pretty much looted money and stones combinations in range ~ 300-1000 cp

 

 

 

Barrel:
1) Scroll of restore moderate endurance (100 cp) + 465 cp
2) Exceptional Battle Axe (405cp) + 411 cp 
3) 301
4) 546cp + Blunderbuss (200 cp)
5) Potion of major endurance (140cp) + 430cp
6) 729 cp
7) 720cp + Hunting Bow (10cp)
8) 8. Scroll of Missile Barrage (140cp) + 942cp
9) Crossbow (10cp) + 301cp

 

(range ~ 300-1000 cp)
A tombola container...

 

 

 

 

Trapped Chest (always giving Rope and Grapling Hook (15cp)):
1) Granfathan Stalking Boots (110cp)
2) Granfathan Stalking Boots (110cp) + Potion of Major endurance (140cp)
3) Mantle of Wreathing Flame (110cp)
4) Cloak of Minor missiles (410cp)
5) Bracers of Deflection(210cp)
6) 2 x garnet  (2x85cp) + Dyrwooden Charm belt (110 cp)
7) Granfathan Stalking Boots (110cp)
8) 8. Granfathan Stalking Boots (110cp) + Scroll of Prayer against Restraint (100cp) + 2 x Perl (2 x 100cp)
9) Girdle of Eotum Constitution (610 cp)

 

(range ~ 125-600 cp)

This isn't bad, as the container always gives you Rope and Grapling Hook and one special item to look forward to (boots, belt, cloak, gloves). Alhough, it can still minimize the other stuff.

Edited March 1, 2015 by ushas

[Sensuki]

I didn't like how in Icewind Dale you had to save scum chests to get the item you wanted. I hope in this game that if an item does not spawn in said chest, it spawns somewhere else.

 

Seems like it's worth save scumming every container if there are gonna be differences of up to 600cp+ every time ...

Edited March 1, 2015 by Sensuki

[tjorb]

It shouldn't be possible to save scum them so easily either. Just saving infront of a container and being able to reload to get different loot is bad design.

[Sensuki]

Well the thing is - if the container didn't promote save scumming in the first place, there wouldn't be an inclination to do it.

[Bazy]

I'm confused they specifically said they were not going to do this... 

 

"Loot in IE games (and PE games) is typically hand-placed with very little randomization involved. I.e., it is not systemic."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63017-level-scaling-and-its-misuse/page-14?do=findComment&comment=1298679

 

I abhor random loot tables... especially with odd results... a scroll of minor missiles (410 cp) in a barrel... what? This is skyrim style silliness

[Sensuki]

Yeah there's a lot more randomized loot than I thought there would be. It is disappointing. However, fixable.

[ushas]

There are several other randomly generated containers in Skaen hideout, for example:

 

Sarcophagus:
1. Exceptional Quarterstaff (810 cp) + 2 x Pearl (2 x 100 cp) + 333 cp
2. War Bow + Opal (150 cp) + 936 cp
3. 432 cp
4. Opal (150 cp) + 300 cp
5. 368 cp
6. PollAxe (10 cp) + 912 cp + Garnet (85 cp)
7. Exceptional War Bow (810 cp) + 575 cp + Opal (150 cp)
8. Pearl (100 cp) + 852 cp
9. 234 cp + 2 x Opal (2 x 150 cp)
10. 588 cp + Pearl (100 cp)

 

 

I think the range is like ~ 400-1400 cp

 

This had also a trap. I wonder whether the content changes when its triggered or disarmer (probably not).

 

PS: Sorry for the smileys in the last post, I was confused that it didn't let me to put "8" next to ")" :/

[Sensuki]

Random Exceptional weapon sometimes and no weapon other times .... WTF

[Malekith]

There shouldn't be randomization in loot at all. IWDs were a nightmare because of that.

If you must have random loot in chests, confine it to gems, low level scrolls and jewelery, not in armors.Everything should be handplaced, or at least no systemic. Have a chest contain an exceptional hammer and a gem. What hammer and what gem exactly can be randomized. But going from exeptional weapon to armor to nothing at all promotes savescumming until you get something you like in every single chest.

 

Josh designed the game so reloading and save scumming when losing in combat is dicouraged, and he leaves a loophole where save scumming is encouraged in every other chest you happen across?

Edited March 2, 2015 by Malekith

[Sensuki]

Lucky I tested for it tbh, this would have sucked on release. Props to ushas for finding a worst case scenario.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Sensuki

[ushas]

Yes I wonder about it too:) An exceptional weapon at lvl 4 can possibly make a big difference in the next fight...

[ushas]

Lucky I tested for it tbh, this would have sucked on release. Props to ushas for finding a worst case scenario.

 

Just added a few you are not able to access to. Now I feel really dirty being aknowledged for savescumming:)

[Sensuki]

It was also my understanding that there wasn't going to be Icewind Dale style loot. There are containers in the beta that pick a random magic item from a list and if you don't get the one you want you just randomly save scum it until you get it.

This was something that I believe was going to be avoided for this game. I would much prefer to have handplaced special loot like that - one place where you can get the Gauntlets of Ogre Might, one place where you can get this item, one place where you can get that item.

 

It also brings up the question as to whether you only have a chance of getting that item from that specific container. Maybe it's possible to get 5 Gauntlets of Ogre Might, or zero, depending on the drops.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Sensuki

[Veevoir]

We are probably too close to release to even talk about the loot distribution methods and their pro's and cons..

But at the same time - all those experiments show up that the loot tables are screwed in a major way. I mean, 370gp vs exceptional item and junk worth more than 370gp as two options in the same chest? That is over 300% value range on one chest!

At minimum those should be looked at and loot drops locked to tighter gold value ranges. I can live with getting 300gp of stuffs vs 400 gp. But over 300% is an insane range!

[Ark Evensong]

Not sure exactly where my preference lies on the 'everything hand-placed'//'complete random' scale.

Probably closer to hand-placed, though I can see the value in somewhat randomized loot for re-plays 'n such.

 

Variation in cp value bothers me less than variation in 'useful' loot. "I could have used a Bow, but not a Quarterstaff!" seems more annoying to me than "But I wanted 900 cp worth of stuff, not 200!".

 

But yeah, save scumming for loot needs to go.

Maybe base the RNG for loot on a seed generated during character creation?

[Sensuki]

There would be no need to save scum loot if the loot lists were fixed. It's a bad idea for them to say "screw you, luck of the draw" and do what you just suggested when it wouldn't be that difficult to just fix the loot lists.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Sensuki

[Ark Evensong]

"Fix the loot lists" as in "Make everything hand-placed" or "Decrease variation"?

I have no problem with the latter, and probably should get done.

 

The former? Eh. Ambivalent. I think I'd like not knowing exactly what's where on a second play-through. I also wouldn't mind, so ... Eh.

 

Static vs. Randomized loot is more of a design decision than a bug, though.

[Sensuki]

The latter. More hand placed loot would be good. There's a hidden container in Nridek's room that gives you a random magic item. I don't like those IWD russian roulette magic item loot lists at all.

For mundane loot it's fine to randomize just as long as the loot is sensible. I don't care if you get a random standard weapon every time, just as long as you don't get a random mundane weapon some of the time and a random fine weapon some of the time etc - that just makes no sense.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Whoa, people are just figuring this out now? It was one of the first things I checked, but I assumed everyone knew already.

 

For what it's worth yeah more hand placed loot would be good but there are very few chests that drop magical items (i.e., an item that isn't just a [quality] weapon or armor) and most of them have a fairly limited loot table, with an range of 1-4 or so items (see: that Skaen temple chest that almost always drops the boots or bracers). All the major rewards are from encounters or quests and those rewards are fixed. Keep in mind the characters in the backer beta are deliberately "under geared". "Fine" loot is actually supposed to be "junk" loot by the time we hit this content, which is why you can sometimes find it in "junk" chests.

 

For what it's worth, after spending 10-20 minutes re-rolling a few chests, I don't really think it's worth the time investment, at least not most of the time. You're better off just playing the game and opening more chests through normal play than you are obsessively reloading the same chest 20 times. But maybe that's a function of my hard drive speed or something.

 

And there's another side too; randomized loot helps a bit with replayability. If every single chest drops the same exact thing every time, it gets predictable. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[aeonsim]

I don't really consider this an issue and it's WAY down the list of things to change/fix.

 

This only seems to concern UNNAMED items, quest rewards are always the same if you complete the quest in the same way. While from the 2 or 3 times I've defeated the Cult leader to get his key for the locked chest behind him I've always gotten the same named item. Also at least some of the hidden items are specifically placed for example one body always gives the same +10 deflection ring (>10x) while I've seen some variation among other locations (3 or 4 times) such as an Amulet of Fireball or a Cloak of Flame in the same location. Also considering NPCs pretty much drop there gear there gear that is pretty much fixed as well.


Currently it seems like this:
Quest rewards - Fixed
Quest related containers - Fixed
NPC items - Fixed
Hidden Items/Locations - Some fixed, some Random
Basic Containers - Random

Looking at that it seems to be that a very large proportion of your income is fixed especially on the harder levels where there are bigger groups of enemies and thus more equipment to take, at least on Path of the Damned I'd estimate 70-80% of my income is coming from Quests/NPC equipment and is thus fixed, which leaves something like 20-30% of the income random. Also at this time it does not appear that we know if the container income is completely random or the income from all the containers in a dungeon effectively averages out, after all it's possible for an individual chest to vary greatly in value but that the sum of all chests in the level/dungeon is always similar, as such looking at an individual container seems rather silly.