Sensuki Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 Remember that they said that eventually they are going to have mouseover tooltips that show the formula. Wait for those to see the base value, rather than stuffing up the UI.
Gairnulf Posted February 20, 2015 Author Posted February 20, 2015 As long as it's shown somewhere, I'm ok. I was considering it from UI design perspective, but I'm sure they'll be considering it too, so it's not for me to worry about. A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
Lephys Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 It's not really that weird to just have "Accuracy," and then have modifiers. We're just used to seeing ranged accuracy as a thing treated separately from melee accuracy. Think of it this way: ranged weapons are just another weapon type. You don't see "Polearm accuracy" and "Mace accuracy" listed, yet you can have Weapon Focus talents and get +10 to an attack with a Mace, as opposed to a sword or dagger. You don't see that until you equip the appropriate weapon, but you know you have the Talent. So, a bonus to ranged accuracy is just like having a bonus to bows, wands, crossbows, and firearms, etc. With those weapons, which happen to be ranged, you get a bonus to accuracy. Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u
Luckmann Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 That would actually be fairly annoying, because it's one of those things you like to see immediately when you equip something. I'd prefer if it stayed on the main sheet. I don't necessarily agree that Melee and Ranged Accuracy *have* to be shown separately, because the things that give bonuses to either do not come from weapons - but situational things - like Marskman, to qualify for the +5 bonus you need to be a certain distance away. The Reckless Assault bonus would show if you had a melee weapon equipped, but it wouldn't, if you had a ranged weapon equipped. You can't actually get the bonus to Melee or Ranged Accuracy if you don't have a melee or ranged weapon equipped, or qualify for the thing that gives the bonus - therefore I don't see the need to have two values for it. Unless I misunderstood BMac, it's entirely possible to have things that gives a bonus to, say, Ranged Accuracy, without having a Ranged weapon equipped, such as from an Amulet, using a Ranged Spell, while having a Sword equipped. Luckmann doesn't have the beta so I don't believe he's played it to understand the difference.Yes I do. I've told you, last time you asked. I've sent you files from the v392 Beta that you were missing, and I've even underscored that I also have v435 backed up. Seriously, man, what the ****?
Luckmann Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Here's a good question, though, somewhat related; Does Marksman increase Accuracy with Ranged Spells? It says "Ranged weapons", but I would suspect that the bonus is actually to Ranged Accuracy.
Gairnulf Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 I like the idea of separate accuracy because ranged weapons require different skills to be used effectively. I didn't even know about there being ranged accuracy until I saw it in the wiki. 1 A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
Sensuki Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Classes USED to have different values, but we complained about it - so they removed it.
Gairnulf Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Lol, I must have missed all that. Why did you/people complain? A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
Luckmann Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Lol, I must have missed all that. Why did you/people complain? While I wasn't here for those complaints, I assume that it had to do with pigeon-holing classes into ranged or melee roles, which actually runs counter to stated design goals (afaik). With a single value for both Ranged and Melee Accuracy (Class-wise), Spell-Use is more consistent, and it's easier to build a ranged rogue or fighter, or a melee ranger, etc.
Sensuki Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Because it pigeonholed classes into favoring one or the other Edited February 21, 2015 by Sensuki
wanderon Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 ^ I think it goes like this: you get accuracy X applied to melee and ranged attacks. Everything that affects accuracy, affects this value, but if you have the "Legolas with an M40" ability, you get X+10 accuracy for ranged and X for melee. But this is the same as having a "Fine Warbow" bonus of +4 Accuracy, isn't it? Or the Mace of destruction + 10 melee accuracy...but I think the point is that's not the ONLY way accuracy is added/subtracted from the base - there may be spells or talents that could effect them also. And while we are at it if an item has two seperate accuracy bonuses (boni?) do they stack? Or does only the higher of the two count (I seem to recall at least one item in the BB that had +5 from one source and +4 from fine is that +9 or just +5 (the higher of the two) Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order Not all those that wander are lost...
Sensuki Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) If you enchant a fine club with Accurate 2, it will give you +5 (club), +4 (fine) and +8 (accurate 2) and they all stack. On top of that you *might* get a bonus from one buff, and that's it. Other items that grant accuracy probably won't stack. Edited February 21, 2015 by Sensuki 1
Sensuki Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Josh actually just posted about stacking rules in SA There's a glossary entry for Stacking, but the essential information is that there are four broad categories of bonuses: passive, active/modal, equipment, and weapons/shields. Passive almost always comes from things like Abilities and Talents that you don't need to activate. All passive bonuses stack. Active/modal abilities come from spells, Abilities, Talents, consumable items (potions, food), and resting bonuses that are activated and/or have a duration to them. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Equipment is everything you don't put in your hand slots. Armor, hats, gloves, belts, books, cloaks/amulets, etc. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Weapons/shields are just weapons and shields. All of these bonuses stack. Food and inn bonuses are useful for long-term Attribute checks and Rite scrolls can be used for long-term Skill bonuses.
Gairnulf Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Then maybe Melee/Ranged accuracy would have been better off as point-buy based skills, and people would be able to specialize. A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
Luckmann Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Then maybe Melee/Ranged accuracy would have been better off as point-buy based skills, and people would be able to specialize. But then you force them to specialize, instead of dynamically changing from melee to ranged (or vice versa). Building a skirmisher would probably be very hard. 1
ushas Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Remember that they said that eventually they are going to have mouseover tooltips that show the formula. Wait for those to see the base value, rather than stuffing up the UI. That would be now the best. The mouse over formula clearly distinguishing the base number (used as a base for all the accuracy stuff) and the actual modifiers (equipped weapon, weap. style, active/passive bonuses/talents, etc) would help a lot. Remember there is also the trap accuracy:) I'm not sure whether it has much in common with ranged/melee modifiers. But it's value is affected by Mechanics skill for sure. For better understanding what's going on, there is also missing numerical info on talents and abilities and skills. For example, the mentioned Mechanics does not tell in the description how much is the base accuracy modified for traps at Mech == 0,1,2, or so.
Lychnidos Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Josh actually just posted about stacking rules in SA There's a glossary entry for Stacking, but the essential information is that there are four broad categories of bonuses: passive, active/modal, equipment, and weapons/shields. Passive almost always comes from things like Abilities and Talents that you don't need to activate. All passive bonuses stack. Active/modal abilities come from spells, Abilities, Talents, consumable items (potions, food), and resting bonuses that are activated and/or have a duration to them. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Equipment is everything you don't put in your hand slots. Armor, hats, gloves, belts, books, cloaks/amulets, etc. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Weapons/shields are just weapons and shields. All of these bonuses stack. Food and inn bonuses are useful for long-term Attribute checks and Rite scrolls can be used for long-term Skill bonuses. Does "suppressed" means you get a reduced bonus, or non?
Luckmann Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Josh actually just posted about stacking rules in SA There's a glossary entry for Stacking, but the essential information is that there are four broad categories of bonuses: passive, active/modal, equipment, and weapons/shields. Passive almost always comes from things like Abilities and Talents that you don't need to activate. All passive bonuses stack. Active/modal abilities come from spells, Abilities, Talents, consumable items (potions, food), and resting bonuses that are activated and/or have a duration to them. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Equipment is everything you don't put in your hand slots. Armor, hats, gloves, belts, books, cloaks/amulets, etc. The highest bonus from this group is applied. All others are suppressed. Weapons/shields are just weapons and shields. All of these bonuses stack. Food and inn bonuses are useful for long-term Attribute checks and Rite scrolls can be used for long-term Skill bonuses. Does "suppressed" means you get a reduced bonus, or non? Basically, it's similar to the D&D system of only having the highest bonus apply, except they call it Suppressed and list it so you can see what's going on at a glance.
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