Balance Discussion

[Sensuki]

This thread is to discuss underpowered and overpowered abilities, talents, attributes, classes, spells, weapons/items ... etc

 

Probably a bit late in the game, but some solid focused efforts here could be helpful.

 

I'll start off with this video on the Fighter's Knockdown (a 1st level ability) vs Into the Fray (a 5th level ability)

 

 

Video demonstrates all, but the conclusion is that Knockdown is much, much better than Into the Fray. I would recommend Into the Fray be buffed/changed because currently it's nigh on useless.

What's more is that when you pull a target away from a party member attacking them in melee, that party member will move to chase due to auto-attack and possibly suffer disengagement attacks from other enemies because of it. I have also managed to trigger a disengagement attack on the target of Into the Fray by pulling them away with a crit, but only once.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Cipher's Soul Shock Ability is pretty spammable.

 

Would probably recommend making the recovery time for it a bit longer? Seems like it's way too short, could be a bug.

[Sensuki]

Ranger Animal Companions are really, really weak.

 

 

They just get absolutely sacked after only a few hits. In this image, I cast Iconic Projection from the Priest and Arcane Assault from the Wizard, and the Boar was knocked out after about 2 seconds of combat.

 

Now the Ranger will have like -20 Accuracy for the rest of the encounter lol .... gg

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sensuki

[aeonsim]

Ranger Animal Companions are really, really weak.

 

They just get absolutely sacked after only a few hits. In this image, I cast Iconic Projection from the Priest and Arcane Assault from the Wizard, and the Boar was knocked out after about 2 seconds of combat.

 

Now the Ranger will have like -20 Accuracy for the rest of the encounter lol .... gg

 

They also have a flat 10 for all attributes for all of them (So Bear, Lion, Wolf, Stag, ... all exactly the same base attributes) which seems wrong. Surely A bear should have much higher might + con, a wolf high Might + Dex, antelope high Resolve and Perception and so on.

Secondly the companion bonuses only seems to start at level 5 (+1.5 DR, and a couple of other small bonuses). Finally the Bear is supposed to have a high DR yet it's not even listed on the character sheet so I've no idea if it's even true, while the Antelope at least gets it's +7 to Defences listed.

 

 

Also to make them more interesting it'd be nice to see a modified version of the shared endurance system return for example they share the first 60% of their endurance. Thus if we have a Ranger with an effective endurance of 100, and a Bear with endurance 100 the first 60 Damage they take comes out of the combined pool. After that the damage comes out of who ever is actively being hurt so if the Bear is up front taking the damage at 65 damage there endurance drops to 35 but the rangers stays at 40. If the Ranger is then healed for 40 endurance the healing first fills up the Companion till it reaches the threshold and then is fills up the shared pool so in this case their endurances are healed to 75 (40-5 for the Bear, + 35 to the shared). This would provide the shared health benefit that was mechanically interesting but at the same time stop the Ranger or Companion from being KO'd by the KO of it's companion though, they'rd still be significantly weakened by it. Secondly the Companion lost debuf should change to something closer to the barbarians rage as the Ranger/companion goes wild about it's wounded companion. So change it to something like 1.4x Damage, Acc -5 and 0.8x Deflection...

[Sock]

Edit: Please note, I intend with each suggestion that only one should be applied. PoE needs a scalpel for balance, not a shotgun.

 

I've said a few of these things elsewhere, but I'll add them here as well:

 

Combusting wounds needs work. I've seen a duration as high as 78 seconds, which effectively means that for over a minute, every small bit of damage this character receives will be amplified by burn damage (possibly by a currently unknown amount, I haven't found where it's displayed at least). I LOVE the effect, it's an excellent damage spike support spell. But for a level 2 spell, it's really too strong.

 

Suggested fixes: 

• Keep its effects as is, but move it to level 5 or 6.
• Keep it where it is, but lower duration to 20 seconds.
• Keep it where it is, but lower damage to being only 10% of the hit.

 

Thrice She Was Wronged. This is the trump card of chanters. It has a huge AoE, hits every enemy 3 times, and does extremely high damage when all of that is taken into consideration.

 

Suggested fixes:

• Keep its effects as is, but move it to tier 3 or 4.
• Keep it where it is, but change it to one hit per enemy.
• Keep it where it is, but lower damage to 1/3rd of current levels.

 

Kalakoth's Minor Blights. This spell is excellent as a "set it and forget it" spell. Duration is 60 seconds base, and the damage dealt is some of the "less common" kinds, which can be further enhanced by the elemental damage feats. They also have a blast effect, effectively being as strong as two wizard talents (Blast and Blast Penetration due to higher damage than blast weapon types).

 

Suggested fixes:

• Keep it at the same spell level, but cut duration in half.
• Keep it at the same spell level, but remove the blast feature.
• Keep it at the same spell level, but have it modify the damage type of any projectile being wielded instead of creating it's own.

 

Ranger pets are too fragile.

 

Suggested fixes:

• Recommend that they have their own development path, their own level up screen. Let the ranger have talents that improve their coordination, but the pet has all talents that impact only the pet.
• Double all current DR values for pets.
• Increase by 50% all current defense values, and double the antelope's defense bonus.
• Give them more functionality; right now unless you specifically take the knock down feat, all they can do is auto attack.
• AI rarely wants the ranger and his pet to work together, correct that so that by default, the ranger and their pet will automatically target the same enemy.

 

Shields. All other weapon styles have pros, only shields have negatives (accuracy penalty) built in. If you dual wield, you're faster than anyone else. If you single wield, you are more accurate than anyone. If you use a 2h weapon, you have the highest single hit damage. If you use a shield, you are harder to hit AND you hit less often. All other weapon styles, the trade off is "you can do more damage, but you're defended less", but they are just defended less by not having a bonus. Only with a shield is a penalty actually applied. And shields are, currently, not worth the penalty.

 

Recommended fixes:

• When taking weapon and shield talent, also apply a 10% lash crushing damage so long as a shield is equipped to represent offensive use of the shield as well.
• Halve accuracy penalties.
• Allow for accuracy enchantments to be placed on the shield, which work just to reduce the accuracy penalty.
• Give sword and shield talent an extra per encounter attack, shield bash, which has a high interrupt chance but does very low damage, checks against fortitude. 
• Introduce a new talent, "Shield Fighting", that applies a 20% lash crushing damage so long as a shield is equipped.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sock

[Bazy]

I need to do a lot more testing when I have time but... In additional to what has been said by Sensui and Sock

 

1. Druid: Spiritshift/Wildstrike is bad. The duration is super short, wildstrikes only work while spiritshifted and require 33% of your talents points. Bear is especially bad... the damage reduction is 8 DR... wizards have more powerful/longer lasting defensive abilities than that.

 

2. Wizard: Blast: Too strong. Makes wizards autoattack too powerful. 

 

3. Wizard: Arcane Veil: Terrible. Per rest is absurd. 

 

4. One Handed Weapons: Not sure but with DT/DR changes seem to underperfom compared to 2H weapons

 

5. Potions: Need to be balanced: Healing for 100 Endurance is ridiculous

 

6. Scrolls: Need to be limited somehow. You can turn a rogue into a powerful caster that can spam spells. Or you could equip each member of your party with +33 AOE heals... lol

 

7. Shields: I hate using shields but they are mandatory if you want to tank. Shield with the talent ends up being a huge chunk of your deflection/reflex. But as soon as you equip a shield your dps is non existent for a number of reasons. And there is no point in trying to pick up dps talents to offset. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by Bazy

[Bazy]

I would recommend Into the Fray be buffed/changed because currently it's nigh on useless.

Agreed, the disengagement thing was silly and the range is too short to be very useful. 

 

About knockdown... It is strong, but seems fine because Fighters don't have any other abilities to bring to the fight. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by Bazy

[Sensuki]

I think Wizard Blast is fine actually, that is what makes their class good - TBH.

I don't think Knockdown is OP. It's a good ability now

I made a post on Spiritshift a while ago. I'll link it here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69941-druid-spiritshift-is-really-bad-and-needs-to-be-improved/?hl=spiritshift

 

I also think that one handed weapon style may not be very good. I only ever use two weapon fighting or two handed. You can make two weapon fighting good by picking Two Weapon Fighting and Vulnerable Attack, but there's no way to make One Handed Weapon style any good, as you just continuously fail to punch through DT and attack at the same speed as a two hander. One of these problems is because 1H weapons are not balanced vs DR. They're balanced against 0 DR. Been saying that since September 2014.

Shields are also underpowered, I think because the medium and heavy ones reduce your accuracy too much. A while back I recommended -3 and -6 instead of -5 and -10

 

I agree that Arcane Veil is terrible. Making it per-encounter would  be better, but then it would trivialize other defense spells. So dunno what to do there.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sensuki

[Bazy]

I also think that one handed weapon style may not be very good. I only ever use two weapon fighting or two handed.

Shields are also underpowered, I think because the medium and heavy ones reduce your accuracy too much. A while back I recommended -3 and -6 instead of -5 and -10

 

I agree that Arcane Veil is terrible. Making it per-encounter would  be better, but then it would trivialize other defense spells. So dunno what to do there.

If you do go 1H... Not sure why you would, but if you did, the talent helps a lot for making up some of the loss. (~20 accuracy)  Which makes it mandatory. Which makes it uninteresting. 

 

Wizards have a number of good defensive spells without crappy veil. 

 

I would say shields are overpowered when it comes to defensive stats, and too punishing when it comes to offensive. In general the game doesn't encourage hybrid builds. It seems to be all offensive or all defensive. 

[Sensuki]

Yeah I agree, it favors specializing rather than dabbling, because of the Attack Resolution system and DR mechanics.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sensuki

[ryukenden]

Your testing and perception skills is amazing Sensuki. I need to examine the abilities more carefully. But yeah, without the full game, its hard to see how certain skills are more appropriate for certain areas that aren't full of humanoids. 

 

Anyway, rather than nerf knockdown, I just hope they buff the higher level spell to give them more functionality.  Maybe  higher-level spells can work on a wide array of monsters not just humanoids (like drakes), maybe pulls or clips them. 

[Sensuki]

Same. I'd like to see another look at Into the Fray, and some of the other abilities to make them a lot better.

 

The reason I do tests on that encounter is because it's literally right next to where you spawn. Other encounters such as beetles or lion groups on Hard require more management of the party to effectively dispatch of and this takes the focus of the video away from the demonstrated build.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[Clean&Clear]

Yeah, Veil is just useless right now. I wouldn't make it per encounter for the same reason Sensuki pointed out. I would make it a per rest high level really strong defense ability  (something crazy like + 80 deflection to make it count, literally impenetrable) that doesn't work against firearms, as it was advertised in earlier interviews. The problem however could be programming AI to deal with it properly.

[Lephys]

I agree that Arcane Veil is terrible. Making it per-encounter would  be better, but then it would trivialize other defense spells. So dunno what to do there.

It would somewhat trivialize the usage of those defense spells on the Wizard. But other spells can be cast on others. Arcane Veil cannot.

[Odd Hermit]

 

Ranger pets are too fragile.

 

Suggested fixes:

• Recommend that they have their own development path, their own level up screen. Let the ranger have talents that improve their coordination, but the pet has all talents that impact only the pet.
• Double all current DR values for pets.
• Increase by 50% all current defense values, and double the antelope's defense bonus.
• Give them more functionality; right now unless you specifically take the knock down feat, all they can do is auto attack.
• AI rarely wants the ranger and his pet to work together, correct that so that by default, the ranger and their pet will automatically target the same enemy.

 

 

I don't even understand why antelope is even an option when you can have a bear or lion. Bears and lions are so far above the others.

 

Wolves are pack hunters, an individual wolf is pretty weak, and against an armed/armored human would be kind of a joke.

 

Antelopes and stags both just kinda seem too... lunchy.

[Luckmann]

 

 

Ranger pets are too fragile.

 

Suggested fixes:

• Recommend that they have their own development path, their own level up screen. Let the ranger have talents that improve their coordination, but the pet has all talents that impact only the pet.
• Double all current DR values for pets.
• Increase by 50% all current defense values, and double the antelope's defense bonus.
• Give them more functionality; right now unless you specifically take the knock down feat, all they can do is auto attack.
• AI rarely wants the ranger and his pet to work together, correct that so that by default, the ranger and their pet will automatically target the same enemy.

 

 

I don't even understand why antelope is even an option when you can have a bear or lion. Bears and lions are so far above the others.

 

Wolves are pack hunters, an individual wolf is pretty weak, and against an armed/armored human would be kind of a joke.

 

Antelopes and stags both just kinda seem too... lunchy.

 

 

They're self-carrying ambulatory survival rations.

[Sensuki]

Posted this on SA just before

 

Been doing some level up tests tonight - all non-class talents seem pretty tight now but I'm not really liking Savage Attack, and that's not even because of the talent itself (which was good in v392). It's more so due to the fact that you can't get Accuracy from attributes atm. You can make up for the deficit of Vulnerable Attack with Dex and/or Two Weapon Style, but you can't make up the Accuracy loss from Savage Attack. More inclined to go Vulnerable Attack every time.

 

Other than that there are a few class abilities and class talents that need a lift

 

Arcane Veil - 1/encounter with a slightly lower buff would be better. 3/rest just doesn't make it worthwhile IMO.

Spiritshift - horrible at the moment, unfortunately. There's several posts/threads on the Obsidian forums about the problems with this ability.

Wildstrike/Greater Wildstrike - not that great when limited to the already bad enough Spiritshift. Why not just drop their damage bonus to 5% each and make them apply on all Druid hits or something?

Into the Fray - Worst Fighter Ability at the moment

Lay on Hands/Greater Lay on Hands - the default heal amount is a bit weak (that goes for most healing spells actually) - better off drinking a potion for a full Endurance heal.

 

Stuff I have a mild issue with

 

Clear Out - change to 3/rest like all the other per rest abilities - would also be amazing if it was a weapon attack, like Knockdown is now

Thick Skinned - only slash DR isn't super good for a class ability, maybe add 1-2 more DR types (like +2 Slash and Pierce DR - then it would be pretty good. +2 Slash/Pierce/Crush would be sweet)

Hastening Exhortation - Should be able to cast it on yourself like the other exhortations

Reinforcing Exhortation - Should be able to cast it on yourself like the other exhortations

Ancient Memory - It's good with Beloved Spirits [even though super bugged this build] but on it's own I think 1.0 Endurance per tick would be better than 0.8

Animal Companion - needs to be tougher/do a bit more damage/attack faster - any combination of the three, but mostly be tougher. My companion and the enemy companion in the beta often get one-shotted by various abilities/attacks. The -20 Accuracy also might be a bit high.

 

I also have an issue with two of the weapon styles. I would like to use them but IMO they're not worth it really.

 

One-Handed style (not the talent, the style) - I'm not finding it any good vs two weapon style or two-handed style. I think if it attacked slightly quicker it might be better.

Sword and Shield style (not the talent, the style) - basically avoiding it like the plague, and if I do actually use it - I use a small shield because the negative accuracy is nasty. I would try -3 Acc for Medium and -6 Acc for Large instead? Also really hurts now that there's no attribute accuracy, too. Basically do nothing except stand there in fights.

[Sensuki]

If they don't add accuracy back in, I'm definitely going to mod it back in - because it kneecaps casters and shield using builds quite a bit and makes Savage Attack not very good. +1 Acc and +3 Interrupt should be fine. Everyone needs accuracy, not everyone needs interrupt.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I can't see the point of using anything but 2-handers or dual wielding in the current build. The accuracy penalty for shields is too high and single weapons don't pierce DT enough for the accuracy bonus to be appealing.

 

Wizards and Ciphers are too fragile IMO, they could benefit from longer lasting defensive buffs. As it is, buffs either don't last long enough or take too long to cast.

 

Finally, I think giving the party access to gear that is close to what they would be packing at level 5 would be a better way to test balance issues.

[dukefx]

I did some tests...

 

Offensive ranger with a war bow vs an offensive fighter with dual sabers. Both had padded armor. Difficulty set to easy.

 

Results:

Fighter (solo): I slaughtered my way through the village with ease.

Ranger (solo): My bear took quite a beating from Merdreth's group, but in the end I managed to kill everyone in the village. It took a lot of time tho.

 

The ranger did ~30-40% less damage per hit than the fighter.

The fighter did approx. 3 hits while the ranger did 1.

The fighter had no issues staying alive.

Even if we add the animal companion's damage (which occurs once every blue moon due to its miserable attack speed) the fighter easily outdamages the ranger.

 

I see three issues here:

Bows (no comment on other ranged weapons) being either too slow or doing too little damage. (This isn't just ranger specific - others would perform even worse)

Fighters have a lot of both offense and defense, not to mention control, especially with weapon secialization/mastery being fighter exclusive

Animal companions being too fragile (mentioned already)

 

If a frontliner outdamages a heavy hitter then there's something terribly wrong imo.

 

Possible solutions:

Increase damage and/or speed on hunting and war bows. +50% damage , or +25% on both damage and speed would be justified, especially if we compare bows with lets say an arbalest in terms of DPS.

Make weapon specialization/mastery accessible to everyone like weapon focus or scrap it altogether.

Add some meaningful ranged weapon style. Marksman (if we consider this a style) is a joke (low bonus and on top of that it's conditional).

Animal companions need stats!

^ Preferably all of those

[Sock]

For balance reasons, ranged attacks should always provide less DPS in a game like this. Not unless they're going to create some kind of "aggro management" system seperate from the Engagement system; think taunts and feign death, etc. So the role of ranged units needs to be more in the realm of support, not in topping the damage charts. DoTs that build up over time (thus making it so that you can't afford to ignore enemy ranged units) would be an amazing trade off for the low damage with bows. Firearms seem to be pretty awesome in general.

 

The problem lies in how high the high damage is (a crit of 100 damage with a rifle isn't uncommon), compared to how low the low damage is. There aren't enough "vulnerable" creatures in the beta that can be wrecked by a low damage weapon like the hunting bow, which makes all high damage weapons infinitely more appealing, especially when timed to take advantage of paralyzes and prones.

IMO, the brunt of the balance problem with 1h vs 2h is, simply, DR. 1h weapons cannot overcome DR and their rate of attack is too low. Even with increased accuracy by using them with a free hand, the DR of most creatures can outright block 30% of a hit (not a crit) with a 1h weapon. Whereas a graze from a 2h weapon might do the same damage, but a hit or a crit far outweigh 1h weapons, as they do more damage than the DR can soak.

[Sensuki]

Looking in the files for creature DR values - that trend will hold, as there's not really many 'low DR' creatures. Fast and 1H weapons lose out in most situations.

[ushas]

So I guess only villagers in clothing are "armor-less"

[Sensuki]

They have an armor component. You can enchant their clothing. But yeah haven't seen any armorless creatures.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Sensuki

[dukefx]

For balance reasons, ranged attacks should always provide less DPS in a game like this. Not unless they're going to create some kind of "aggro management" system seperate from the Engagement system; think taunts and feign death, etc. So the role of ranged units needs to be more in the realm of support, not in topping the damage charts. DoTs that build up over time (thus making it so that you can't afford to ignore enemy ranged units) would be an amazing trade off for the low damage with bows. Firearms seem to be pretty awesome in general.

 

The problem lies in how high the high damage is (a crit of 100 damage with a rifle isn't uncommon), compared to how low the low damage is. There aren't enough "vulnerable" creatures in the beta that can be wrecked by a low damage weapon like the hunting bow, which makes all high damage weapons infinitely more appealing, especially when timed to take advantage of paralyzes and prones.

IMO, the brunt of the balance problem with 1h vs 2h is, simply, DR. 1h weapons cannot overcome DR and their rate of attack is too low. Even with increased accuracy by using them with a free hand, the DR of most creatures can outright block 30% of a hit (not a crit) with a 1h weapon. Whereas a graze from a 2h weapon might do the same damage, but a hit or a crit far outweigh 1h weapons, as they do more damage than the DR can soak.

 

I just want bows to be on par with arbalests. Arbalests are fine. Very high damage with long reload time. Bows have lowish damage with average reload time, and that's without taking DT into consideration. If you add that, bows have miserably low damage. If I compare my tests to a BG2 archer and lets say a dual wielding kensai, the BG2 archer is very close to the kensai in terms of damage. Also note that the kensei is purely focused on damage while a PoE fighter is supposed to be a tank and the kensai has defense issues without dual classing while the PoE fighter will remain a tank and damage dealer at the same time. An archer in BG2 also has access to grandmaster weapon specialization.

 

As for your DoT damage idea... bows = spike damage everywhere. In most games and in real life too. DoT damage does not go well with piercing weapons. It's a thing for slashing weapons... or magic.

Edited February 24, 2015 by dukefx