The consequences of political correctness

[213374U]

Well, it's probably a bit difficult to explain well, but I'll have a go.

 

Yep, that seems sensible. It's the way I try to conduct myself as well. Unfortunately I've found that it all comes down to what I believe is appropriate/inoffensive/necessary, and there is no way around that because thankfully I cannot read minds and adjust my speech or posts to a reaction that hasn't occurred yet. It is an inevitable imposition. I act this way out of a personal choice or belief, but I'm not sure that simply trying not to offend or considering that the offense is warranted makes me blameless when (if) it happens. This is where PC or culturally imposed avoidance of some ideas or topics can "help". By stifling free speech regarding certain sensitive topics, offense is avoided (duh) in all cases. Thing is, I'm not sure all debates about these particular topics are useful, and PC is simply filling the gap left by prudence, a virtue in decline nowadays, as the risk of getting your ass kicked is no longer omnipresent in discussions. In these cases, we are well served by PC as no usefulness exists that can be balanced vs potential (certain?) offense.

 

Yes, yes... who can say if there is something to be gained from discussing a topic before the discussion can begin?

 

 

 

No condescension was meant; I quite literally don't have the time at the moment to do the digging required to acquire and present all relevant studies I've read that contributed to me finally becoming convinced that actually, the science seems to support the - on the face ridiculous - statements feminists tend to make. It was a synthetic process and I didn't save any of the studies I came across (and there was quite a large number of them).

 

If you're willing to overlook the fact that it makes no mention of feminism at all (and therefore, on the face, has no bearing on the subject), Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow is a nice introduction to the idea that human beings are not rational, and cultural conditioning does affect decision-making unless constant effort is made to supervise your impulses. Its best feature is that it's very thoroughly indexed, so you can do some digging regarding the individual studies on your own (assuming you have access to the relevant journals they were published in).

 

Yes, I'm very superficially familiar with the ideas you mention (thanks for the recommendation though, I'll check it out). I was more referring to the specific remark you made about racism as an emergent property of cultural inertia, as that resonates with my own ideas but I'm not aware of any obvious connections to cognitive science.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

Well, this has gone predictably.  And sadly. 

 

While I appreciate Al2O3's efforts to fight the usual suspects turning this subforum into a ridiculous social-reactionary echo chamber, it's probably best to leave this to the Dragon at this point.  They're taking out the trash in anticipation of Eternity's release-- can't have all the new folks who are likely to start stopping by here thinking that Obsidian is happy with this kind of silly advocacy going on here. 

we were a second or two away from making an on-topic post in this thread, but common sense, inexplicably, took a hold o' us. the bat-crap crazies is even more stubborn than is Gromnir, so we decided the best way to win this fight were to avoid it altogether.  

 

the release o' poe will create a new kinda board havoc for a considerable period o' time, but at least it will be chaos related to games.  sadly, the "usual suspects" will not starve in the absence o' plentiful fodder. they will hibernate, feeding on their own stored rage until poe is forgotten or until the next major world crisis hits.  we hear that snails can hibernate for years.  some similarly tedious obsidian posters is very snail-like... angry snails... angry and bat-crap crazy snails. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I find this post offensive on the behalf of people i do not know and whose sensibilities that i cannot possibly feel. Calling people bat-crap snails is quite problematic and in my opinion, zoophobic. This kind of trolling behaviour is not acceptable by any means and your post have been reported.

 

Expect a displinary warning for a lack of tolerance and self tone-policing.

 

 

 

 

There are people on these boards with thousands of posts, who display the same behaviour and resort to the same rhetorical tricks they used on similar gaming boards fifteen years ago. They engage in the same cut'n paste who-said-what monstrosities they have started and engaged in for decades. When there's no fodder, they will quibble over who said what, desperately looking for someone to argue with. Their therapists tell them it's better for their psyche to bash people around on gaming boards, than turning to alcohol or beating their wives.

 

I have compassion for them. Deep down they really are quite sensitive. Society has treated them badly, and they need to lable people in order to feel better about themselves. Give them a hug them when you see them. It usually scares them away, as they're more afraid of peace than conflict.

 

J.

 

did you actual READ meshugger post?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Yes, I'm very superficially familiar with the ideas you mention (thanks for the recommendation though, I'll check it out). I was more referring to the specific remark you made about racism as an emergent property of cultural inertia, as that resonates with my own ideas but I'm not aware of any obvious connections to cognitive science.

 

 

Well, basically, there is quite a bit of research showing that people can and do display racist/sexist attitudes even when they themselves are unaware of the fact that they're doing so and are horrified upon learning that they did; it's purely a wild assumption on my part that it's probably a result of culture rather than genetically coded into us in the deepest level. (A wild assumption supported by the fact that attitudes in general are rarely hardwired, but still.)

[Meshugger]

So that would imply that people are to a certain degree inheritly racist? Like being racist is actually normal? (Biologically speaking)

 

Hohohohoo, now that would be politically incorrect to say in public, if anything.

[Blarghagh]

As far as I can tell Alum is implying the opposite, that it's a cultural thing?

[Meshugger]

His speculation is as good as mine since there was neither one of us has any concrete evidence. I just found mine to be hilarious.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Meshugger

[Malcador]

Only have come across active racists in my time, or just people that buy into certain stereotypes (those don't come from nothing, but still).

[Junai]

 

 

 

 

Well, this has gone predictably.  And sadly. 

 

While I appreciate Al2O3's efforts to fight the usual suspects turning this subforum into a ridiculous social-reactionary echo chamber, it's probably best to leave this to the Dragon at this point.  They're taking out the trash in anticipation of Eternity's release-- can't have all the new folks who are likely to start stopping by here thinking that Obsidian is happy with this kind of silly advocacy going on here. 

we were a second or two away from making an on-topic post in this thread, but common sense, inexplicably, took a hold o' us. the bat-crap crazies is even more stubborn than is Gromnir, so we decided the best way to win this fight were to avoid it altogether.  

 

the release o' poe will create a new kinda board havoc for a considerable period o' time, but at least it will be chaos related to games.  sadly, the "usual suspects" will not starve in the absence o' plentiful fodder. they will hibernate, feeding on their own stored rage until poe is forgotten or until the next major world crisis hits.  we hear that snails can hibernate for years.  some similarly tedious obsidian posters is very snail-like... angry snails... angry and bat-crap crazy snails. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I find this post offensive on the behalf of people i do not know and whose sensibilities that i cannot possibly feel. Calling people bat-crap snails is quite problematic and in my opinion, zoophobic. This kind of trolling behaviour is not acceptable by any means and your post have been reported.

 

Expect a displinary warning for a lack of tolerance and self tone-policing.

 

 

 

 

There are people on these boards with thousands of posts, who display the same behaviour and resort to the same rhetorical tricks they used on similar gaming boards fifteen years ago. They engage in the same cut'n paste who-said-what monstrosities they have started and engaged in for decades. When there's no fodder, they will quibble over who said what, desperately looking for someone to argue with. Their therapists tell them it's better for their psyche to bash people around on gaming boards, than turning to alcohol or beating their wives.

 

I have compassion for them. Deep down they really are quite sensitive. Society has treated them badly, and they need to lable people in order to feel better about themselves. Give them a hug them when you see them. It usually scares them away, as they're more afraid of peace than conflict.

 

J.

 

did you actual READ meshugger post?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I did. Maybe I saw something else in it? Or let's just blame the language barrier. No habla ingles.. works every time.

 

Anyway, I think this pertains to the topic in many ways, despite your effort to write an Off-T post. It's counterproductive to lable someone as crazy just because their gut feeling doesn't jive with a certain political correct consensus concocted by a few people in the establishment and media. Worst case scenario - Rotherham. I remember Gromnir telling us he spent most of his life fighting "The Man". What happened? 

 

J.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Junai

[aluminiumtrioxid]

His speculation is as good as mine since there was neither one of us has any concrete evidence. I just found mine to be hilarious.

 

I don't know of any cultural attitudes that are genetically hardwired. This gives a vastly higher probability to my "speculation", as you call it, being right.

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/31535464

 

Somewhat relevant (and may result in amusement for myself, we shall see). One thing Twitter has given us is a much enhanced outrage machine, people called to slacktivist jihad over lots of minor things these days.

[Nonek]

I visited Rotherham the other day while staying with the family, the Taxi Driver was telling us that he and other white drivers were now glutted with work because of the recent paedophilia scandal. A lot of people would now only accept white or black drivers, and obviously the firms were adjusting accordingly, and there was simply no work for Indian or Pakistani drivers. I really didn't know what to think about this, as a parent one can understand, as a rationalist it seems silly, such criminals usually stick to their own racial groups.

[Ineth]

Interesting how people are so sure the GG thread got closed because people complained. It's not our policy to discuss decisions in public, but I can tell you guys that ain't why. That kind of witch-hunt mentality also bothers me - [...]

 

Well whatever your (the mod team's) deeper motivations were for closing those threads, the rationalization given by Fionavar (especially here) was BS.

 

I mean really, we can't discuss the effects of modern feminism (as in the actual movement, rather than the cozy ideal or dictionary definition) on Western society, and the reasons for its bad reputation, unless there are enough feminists participating in the discussion and guiding it in a favorable (for feminism) direction?

 

Does this mean we also can't discuss the harmful effects of the Catholic church's anti-condom dogma in Africa, unless there are enough devout Catholics participating in the discussion?

 

Or the effects of religious extremism in the Middle East, unless there are enough Taliban members participating in the discussion?

 

So yeah, with a rationalization as flimsy and condescending as the one Fionavar gave us, you can't blame people for suspecting that the decision to shut down those discussions was made in bad faith.

[Blarghagh]

I can understand your reading of the post, but as far as I know that post is meant as "we're timing this out, here's something to think about in the meanwhile" and not "we're timing this out, here's why". Either way, like his post says, if you want to debate the decision you can take it up with him. Our policy is not to engage in open debate so there's nothing else I can tell you. I would like to reiterate that it's a time-out, not a ban. Take a break, settle down.

[Meshugger]

 

His speculation is as good as mine since there was neither one of us has any concrete evidence. I just found mine to be hilarious.

 

I don't know of any cultural attitudes that are genetically hardwired. This gives a vastly higher probability to my "speculation", as you call it, being right.

 

 

Well, i am seing it from the angle of that i cannot tell where exactly biology ends and where culture begins. Add to the fact that people make culture, it probably becomes a question never really properly answered. Maybe.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Meshugger

[Qbert]

 

 

His speculation is as good as mine since there was neither one of us has any concrete evidence. I just found mine to be hilarious.

 

I don't know of any cultural attitudes that are genetically hardwired. This gives a vastly higher probability to my "speculation", as you call it, being right.

 

What about it makes you think it is a purely cultural attitude? People and animals seem hard wired to be attracted to things that are like themselves, and wary of things that are unknown or different.  This always seemed to me to be the root cause of racism, and it certainly seems to be genetic.  Everyone has a natural genetic predisposition towards racism, and the more exposure to different looking people one obtains, the less this schema dominates one's thinking.  Cultural messages also play a part, of course.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

 

Well, this has gone predictably.  And sadly. 

 

While I appreciate Al2O3's efforts to fight the usual suspects turning this subforum into a ridiculous social-reactionary echo chamber, it's probably best to leave this to the Dragon at this point.  They're taking out the trash in anticipation of Eternity's release-- can't have all the new folks who are likely to start stopping by here thinking that Obsidian is happy with this kind of silly advocacy going on here. 

we were a second or two away from making an on-topic post in this thread, but common sense, inexplicably, took a hold o' us. the bat-crap crazies is even more stubborn than is Gromnir, so we decided the best way to win this fight were to avoid it altogether.  

 

the release o' poe will create a new kinda board havoc for a considerable period o' time, but at least it will be chaos related to games.  sadly, the "usual suspects" will not starve in the absence o' plentiful fodder. they will hibernate, feeding on their own stored rage until poe is forgotten or until the next major world crisis hits.  we hear that snails can hibernate for years.  some similarly tedious obsidian posters is very snail-like... angry snails... angry and bat-crap crazy snails. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I find this post offensive on the behalf of people i do not know and whose sensibilities that i cannot possibly feel. Calling people bat-crap snails is quite problematic and in my opinion, zoophobic. This kind of trolling behaviour is not acceptable by any means and your post have been reported.

 

Expect a displinary warning for a lack of tolerance and self tone-policing.

 

 

 

 

There are people on these boards with thousands of posts, who display the same behaviour and resort to the same rhetorical tricks they used on similar gaming boards fifteen years ago. They engage in the same cut'n paste who-said-what monstrosities they have started and engaged in for decades. When there's no fodder, they will quibble over who said what, desperately looking for someone to argue with. Their therapists tell them it's better for their psyche to bash people around on gaming boards, than turning to alcohol or beating their wives.

 

I have compassion for them. Deep down they really are quite sensitive. Society has treated them badly, and they need to lable people in order to feel better about themselves. Give them a hug them when you see them. It usually scares them away, as they're more afraid of peace than conflict.

 

J.

 

did you actual READ meshugger post?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I did. Maybe I saw something else in it? Or let's just blame the language barrier. No habla ingles.. works every time.

 

Anyway, I think this pertains to the topic in many ways, despite your effort to write an Off-T post. It's counterproductive to lable someone as crazy just because their gut feeling doesn't jive with a certain political correct consensus concocted by a few people in the establishment and media. Worst case scenario - Rotherham. I remember Gromnir telling us he spent most of his life fighting "The Man". What happened? 

 

J.

 

fighting the State on First Amendment issues is not the same thing as being willful stoopid.  we don't see bogeyman lurking in every closet and we don't see evil and government being synonymous.  most o' the great tragedies o' our time is the result o' ignorance and mistake rather than intentional schemes o' flagitious resolve.  this thread and your posts is proof o' that, no? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Junai]

fighting the State on First Amendment issues is not the same thing as being willful stoopid.  we don't see bogeyman lurking in every closet and we don't see evil and government being synonymous.  most o' the great tragedies o' our time is the result o' ignorance and mistake rather than intentional schemes o' flagitious resolve.  this thread and your posts is proof o' that, no? 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

"Mistakes" like Rotherham? Talk about ostrich approach.

Sometimes "willful stoopid" is required to break the stranglehold of polical correctness and shake people out of their bourgeois apathy. Give any man a nice house and a secure job, and he's the Mayor of Rotherham. Snails and their houses..

 

J. 

[Gromnir]

 

fighting the State on First Amendment issues is not the same thing as being willful stoopid.  we don't see bogeyman lurking in every closet and we don't see evil and government being synonymous.  most o' the great tragedies o' our time is the result o' ignorance and mistake rather than intentional schemes o' flagitious resolve.  this thread and your posts is proof o' that, no? 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

"Mistakes" like Rotherham? Talk about ostrich approach.

Sometimes "willful stoopid" is required to break the stranglehold of polical correctness and shake people out of their bourgeois apathy. Give any man a nice house and a secure job, and he's the Mayor of Rotherham. Snails and their houses..

 

J. 

 

am absolute certain we didn't mention rotherham in any post previous to this one.

 

and the portion we bolded is exactly what we were talking 'bout.  is such nonsense that allows folks to justifiable ignore you (and those like you) on the rare occasion when you happen to be fighting on the side o' right rather than stoopid.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Sometimes "willful stoopid" is required to break the stranglehold of polical correctness and shake people out of their bourgeois apathy.

 

 

 

As an aside, I don't even know what "bourgeois apathy" is supposed to mean in this context.

[Meshugger]

Uh, i was just messing around with Gromnir with the same lingo as Anita K. & co uses, then things happened apparantly.

[Malcador]

Uh, i was just messing around with Gromnir with the same lingo as Anita K. & co uses, then things happened apparantly.

Well done though, it made the thread a little more entertaining.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Uh, i was just messing around with Gromnir with the same lingo as Anita K. & co uses, then things happened apparantly.

 

Yeah, this is why I really dislike people's attempts at mockery using the same phrases their (usually left-leaning) opponents use. Words have meanings, and it's immediately apparent to anybody in the know that the string of words in question makes zero sense whatsoever. Good satire is supposed to also double as a perfect example of the thing it's satirizing, after all.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

Sometimes "willful stoopid" is required to break the stranglehold of polical correctness and shake people out of their bourgeois apathy.

 

 

 

As an aside, I don't even know what "bourgeois apathy" is supposed to mean in this context.

 

the context is the "willful stoopid" he mentions immediate before that bit o' vacuous nonsense.  

 

"And so he says to me, you want to be a bad guy? and I say Yeah Baby! I want to be bad! I says Churchill space ponies I'm making gravy without the lumps! Ah ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!!!!" -- The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight

 

let him string together random bits o' stoopid, but don't try and explain.

 

"Uh, i was just messing around with Gromnir with the same lingo as Anita K. & co uses, then things happened apparantly."

 

we got it.

 

portions we highlighted to point out the ha-ha to junai:

 

"I find this post offensive on the behalf of people i do not know and whose sensibilities that i cannot possibly feel"

 

ok, that shoulda' clued our resident seal-clubber into the mirth, but if it went over his head, your condemnation o' our "zoophobia" shoulda' erased any lingering doubts.  he took serious even so.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

Yeah, this is why I really dislike people's attempts at mockery using the same phrases their (usually left-leaning) opponents use. Words have meanings, and it's immediately apparent to anybody in the know that the string of words in question makes zero sense whatsoever. Good satire is supposed to also double as a perfect example of the thing it's satirizing, after all.

I think you dislike it as your kind is the target of it, rather than because of its quality. It should be almost passable as something produced from the one the attacker is trying to take the piss out of, but needs a bit of absurdity to give it a cutting edge - not a perfect example.

 

Meshugger should have mentioned it needing a trigger warning though.

[Blarghagh]

"And so he says to me, you want to be a bad guy? and I say Yeah Baby! I want to be bad! I says Churchill space ponies I'm making gravy without the lumps! Ah ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!!!!" -- The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight

 

 

That's about how hard I laughed reading that.