Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)

[Stun]

Now I'm supposed to solve a murder in a district I've never visited, involving people I don't know.

Hey, don't knock the bridge district murder quest. It may be one of the better written pieces of the game simply due to its sheer weirdness, assuming you're clever (and lucky) enough to see it to its actual conclusion.

 

I didn't think too much of the Asylum, there's a machine down the bottom of the Catacombs that gives you a few good items though.

LOL Yeah the footwear dispenser.

 

But the Asylum's got a bunch of the real goods. Bag of Holding; Ring of regeneration; a ton of the 7th and 8th level spell scrolls that aren't that easy to find in Athkatla; Staff of Thunder & Lightning. etc.

[Stun]

What the hell. I'll try ignoring the story and attempt to switch to pure powergaming mode. See if it makes a difference.

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10 Edited January 14, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

 

Now I'm supposed to solve a murder in a district I've never visited, involving people I don't know.

Hey, don't knock the bridge district murder quest. It may be one of the better written pieces of the game simply due to its sheer weirdness, assuming you're clever (and lucky) enough to see it to its actual conclusion.

 

I didn't think too much of the Asylum, there's a machine down the bottom of the Catacombs that gives you a few good items though.

LOL Yeah the footwear dispenser.

 

But the Asylum's got a bunch of the real goods. Bag of Holding; Ring of regeneration; a ton of the 7th and 8th level spell scrolls that aren't that easy to find in Athkatla; Staff of Thunder & Lightning. etc.

 

 

If you're playing a rogue, Athkatlan Guards actually carry around heaps of 7th- and 8th-level spells. Pickpocketing is ridiculously easy in BG2. The only spells they don't carry around seems to be 9th-level spells.

 

And I assume you know, but Ribald in the Adventurer's Mart also carries a Ring of Regeneration that can be pickpocketed.

 

Sweet lewt.

[PrimeJunta]

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10

I preferred IWD's gameplay to BG2's. There's full control over party composition, the maps are more polished, and the setpieces -- so far at least -- are more varied and better designed.

 

Perhaps that's one reason this feels a little disappointing actually, coming straight from IWD.

 

Plus, while this kind of gameplay is nice enough it's not entirely to my taste. For pure gameplay goodness I'll take NetHack any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

[Jarmo]

If I recall, BG2 had more ups and downs than a rollercoaster ride.

 

Opening dungeon, not fun at all.

 

City, was wow great.. and then I got swamped by million quests, couldn't remember what I was doing. World map full of locations I couldn't remember why I'd want to visit. So it was mostly going somewhere and killing everything that moves, see if I get a mission accomplished and try to find whoever sent me there. But lots of fun stuff too.

 

The undersea place and underdark. Not fun, kill everything, good loot though.

 

Drow town was definitely great, especially after butchering for so long. Actual quests and stuff, with talking and all! Great!

 

And then back the city, slogging my way through about a million enemies. Not fun.

And then it was already early endgame, with killing and killing and killing a lot of vampires and other creatures.

And then late endgame, fighting another million critters.

 

Actually getting to kill Irenicus was fun though. I got a kick out of watching as he was shredded by gated demons.

[PrimeJunta]

Question. How much further do I have to play before you guys believe I've given it my honest best?

 

I took a dip into what powergaming would be like. I read up on power builds, and set out to make one. Soloed Irenicus's place and the circus tent, except to pick up Imoen to help with some traps (XP, ding!) and Aerie to memorize some spells (XP, ding!) and racked up a couple levels.

 

Wasn't fun. Feels like work, not play.

 

I'll keep nibbling away at this with my Neutral Evil elf, but I'm starting to think you guise might have been right when you accused me of not digging IE gameplay all that much. It's okay, but not so awesome I'd commit, like, a hundred hours to this just for that. If only the writing and story were a little more engaging, that'd tip the balance and make me really want to play this. (Or, alternatively, if only some of the mechanics and UI elements weren't so irritating. I bleeping HATE that inventory!)

[gban007]

My top 10? I don't maintain such lists, but off the top of my head here's a bunch of cRPG's I've enjoyed more than BG2 (so far), in no particular order:

 

Planescape: Torment

Fallout

Fallout 2

Fallout: NV

Morrowind

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer

The Witcher

The Witcher 2

IWD

Gothic 2

Vampire: Bloodlines

Have you ever tried the Avernum series?  Certainly not AAA titles, but I find them good story based cRPGs.

[gban007]

Question. How much further do I have to play before you guys believe I've given it my honest best?

 

I took a dip into what powergaming would be like. I read up on power builds, and set out to make one. Soloed Irenicus's place and the circus tent, except to pick up Imoen to help with some traps (XP, ding!) and Aerie to memorize some spells (XP, ding!) and racked up a couple levels.

 

Wasn't fun. Feels like work, not play.

 

I'll keep nibbling away at this with my Neutral Evil elf, but I'm starting to think you guise might have been right when you accused me of not digging IE gameplay all that much. It's okay, but not so awesome I'd commit, like, a hundred hours to this just for that. If only the writing and story were a little more engaging, that'd tip the balance and make me really want to play this. (Or, alternatively, if only some of the mechanics and UI elements weren't so irritating. I bleeping HATE that inventory!)

From my view, I think you've given it a good run through the different characters, the only question would be if you may enjoy it more beyond Chapter 2, but I'm not sure if you have done so previously or not.

[anameforobsidian]

 

My top 10? I don't maintain such lists, but off the top of my head here's a bunch of cRPG's I've enjoyed more than BG2 (so far), in no particular order:

 

Planescape: Torment

Fallout

Fallout 2

Fallout: NV

Morrowind

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer

The Witcher

The Witcher 2

IWD

Gothic 2

Vampire: Bloodlines

Have you ever tried the Avernum series?  Certainly not AAA titles, but I find them good story based cRPGs.

 

Avernum is an excellent game, really excited for the second remake.  So far Geneforge has the more interesting conflict.

[aeonsim]

Interesting you dislike the main story line, as far as RPGs go I thought it was one of the more interesting ones in that it wasn't just Evil dude wants to take over/destroy Town/Country/World/Reality, like PST and NWN2:MotB it was more of a personal story. If your playing a non-evil character then it very much starts as a save my Friend/Half sibling/person who broke me out of jail + revenge on the bastard who tortured me. It's something your character could conceivably care about but the rest of the world doesn't really care. If your playing an evil char then the dreams and the whole more power things I guess is supposed to draw you in.

 

In the second half it becomes even more personal with the whole soul thingy, which I liked but it's still about you and no one else really has any reason to care. This I find to be a big improvement compared to so many of the other cRPGs where "YOU ARE the CHOSEN ONE" who will "SAVE the WORLD/TOWN/COUNTRY" when "NO ONE ELSE CAN" and everyone else doesn't seem to care that the world may end, oh and conveniently you can take your time because the world won't nearly end until your ready to save it...

 

Based on the rumours around the start of PoE it seems like the PoE story line may be a bit more personal as well with something having happened to you in the opening, so I'm looking forward to that.

[illathid]

Probably. But I don't "LARP" it. I'm a powergamer.

You know it's impossible to LARP in a video game right? The as you can't have the LA part of LARPing i.e. Live Action, as in being in field, dressed as a wizard, arguing with the fat guy trying to be an elf.

[Sensuki]

Question. How much further do I have to play before you guys believe I've given it my honest best?

Well honest best would be attempting all the hard encounters - there's that one in the sewers which you did. Windspear Hills has a few, and Firkraag (which isn't hard, but it might be for you). Guarded Compound, Twisted Rune, Watcher's Keep, Kangaxx and of course, the stuff in the Underdark.

 

If you don't like those, then yeahhhh.

[archangel979]

Interesting you dislike the main story line, as far as RPGs go I thought it was one of the more interesting ones in that it wasn't just Evil dude wants to take over/destroy Town/Country/World/Reality, like PST and NWN2:MotB it was more of a personal story. If your playing a non-evil character then it very much starts as a save my Friend/Half sibling/person who broke me out of jail + revenge on the bastard who tortured me. It's something your character could conceivably care about but the rest of the world doesn't really care. If your playing an evil char then the dreams and the whole more power things I guess is supposed to draw you in.

 

In the second half it becomes even more personal with the whole soul thingy, which I liked but it's still about you and no one else really has any reason to care. This I find to be a big improvement compared to so many of the other cRPGs where "YOU ARE the CHOSEN ONE" who will "SAVE the WORLD/TOWN/COUNTRY" when "NO ONE ELSE CAN" and everyone else doesn't seem to care that the world may end, oh and conveniently you can take your time because the world won't nearly end until your ready to save it...

 

Based on the rumours around the start of PoE it seems like the PoE story line may be a bit more personal as well with something having happened to you in the opening, so I'm looking forward to that.

This is a good description. And BG1 also did this well. You are also not pushed into story of BG1 as chosen one to save everyone but kind of follow only clues you got and get involved into the conspiracy that is going on in the background.

 

DAO, DAI and ME2 and ME3 stories are crap whem compared. DA2 was more like BG games in the story department.

[500MetricTonnes]

 

Probably. But I don't "LARP" it. I'm a powergamer.

You know it's impossible to LARP in a video game right? The as you can't have the LA part of LARPing i.e. Live Action, as in being in field, dressed as a wizard, arguing with the fat guy trying to be an elf.

 

I assume he meant "I pretend to do what my character would do, even though the game isn't enforcing adherence to that particular role."

 

Sort of like how some people "role-played" as a guard on Oblivion, standing in front of a gate for eight hours a day, despite the game not recognising their "role."

[Stun]

 

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10

I preferred IWD's gameplay to BG2's.

 

How? And why? Ok. I dislike being forced to do such a harsh comparison between the IE games because it's sorta like a mother having to choose between her kids. (see, unlike your list, my top 10 has Both of those games in it. In fact, my top 3 has both of those games in it) But here goes.

 

First off, being able to create your entire party is not a talking point. You can do that in BG2 as well. The only thing IWD has over BG2 is that its dungeons are cooler looking and better designed. No surprise there. IWD is a Dungeon Crawler. If it didn't do its dungeons better, the entire game would have been an epic failure. Also, one could argue that another thing IWD has over BG2 is that it starts you at level 1. A lot of people prefer this. I'm one of them. So we'll go ahead and add that.

 

But BG2 has:

 

1) Better build freedom. You can dual-wield in BG2. There are more classes. There are more spells (Arcane and divine). There are more weapon choices. There are more weapon styles.

2) The Bestiary is larger. by a factor of about a thousand

3) It's not as linear. BG2 hits that sweet spot between the sandbox and the rails. Icewind dale just embraces the rails.

4) Encounter design is better. Yeah, I said it. Icewind Dale tries to make its combat more complex by just flooding the battlefield with more enemies. BG2 takes a more creative route....with variety

5) The Combat Mechanics are better. There's no way around this....and it's not even close. There's no Time Stop in Icewind dale. There's no Project image and mislead. There's no mindflayers that suck your intelligence; there's no undead that level drain you etc. There's no Wands of wonder or Decks of many things, or wild mage surges. There's no Imprisonment.

6) Loot itemization is better. Both games do a pretty good job (the creativity and labor of love is definitely there for both) but lets face the facts. Crom Faeyr is more memorable than the War Hammer of greater phasing. Carsomyr is more memorable than Pale Justice. And Celestial fury is more memorable than the long sword of greater action.

7) The Story is Better. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people who will vehemently defend both of the Icewind dales' stories from the numerous fools out there who consistently dismiss them away as non existent. But honestly, are you going to argue that Belhifet is a more compelling villain than Irenicus? Plus there's the whole companion banter and backstory thing, which I personally don't value as much as other people do. But Bg2 has it while Icewind dale doesn't bother. So there you go.

8.)There's better role playing Options. I suppose you'd disagree with this (as you already have on this thread), but go ahead and do 2 playthroughs of Icewind dale. One with an evil thief mage, and the other with a Paladin. Then come back and tell us how different those two playthroughs were in terms of role playing. lol

 

 

^this is how I define gameplay. Bg2 simply does it better. It's a bigger game. Bigger Scope. It just has *more* to offer.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[BruceVC]

 

 

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10

I preferred IWD's gameplay to BG2's.

 

Gosh, I couldn't disagree more. Ok. I dislike being forced to do such a harsh comparison between the IE games because it's sorta like a mother having to choose between her kids. But here goes.

 

First off, being able to create your entire party is not a talking point. You can do that in BG2 as well. The only thing IWD has over BG2 is that its dungeons are cooler looking and better designed. No surprise there. IWD is a Dungeon Crawler. If it didn't do its dungeons better, the entire game would have been an epic failure. Also, one could argue that another thing IWD has over BG2 is that it starts you at level 1. A lot of people prefer this. I'm one of them. So we'll go ahead and add that.

 

But BG2 has:

 

1) Better build freedom. You can dual-wield in BG2. There are more classes. There are more spells (Arcane and divine). There are more weapon choices. There are more weapon styles.

2) The Bestiary is larger. by a factor of about a thousand

3) It's not as linear. BG2 hits that sweet spot between the sandbox and the rails. Icewind dale just embraces the rails.

4) Encounter design is better. Yeah, I said it. Icewind Dale tries to make its combat more complex by just flooding the battlefield with more enemies. BG2 takes a more creative route....with variety

5) The Combat Mechanics are better. There's no way around this....and it's not even close. There's no Time Stop in Icewind dale. There's no Project image and mislead. There's no mindflayers that suck your intelligence; there's no undead that level drain you etc.

6) Loot itemization is better. Both games do a pretty good job (the creativity and labor of love is definitely there for both) but lets face the facts. Crom Faeyr is more memorable than the War Hammer of greater phasing. Carsomyr is more memorable than Pale Justice. And Celestial fury is more memorable than the long sword of greater action.

7) The Story is Better. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people who will vehemently defend both of the Icewind dales' stories from the numerous fools out there who consistently dismiss them away as non existent. But honestly, are you going to argue that Belhifet is a more compelling villain than Irenicus? Plus there's the whole companion banter and backstory thing, which I personally don't value as much as other people do. But Bg2 has it while Icewind dale doesn't bother. So there you go.

8.)There's better role playing Options. I suppose you'd disagree with this (as you already have on this thread), but go ahead and do 2 playthroughs of Icewind dale. One with an evil thief mage, and the other with a Paladin. Then come back and tell us how different those two playthroughs were in terms of role playing. lol

 

 

^this is how I define gameplay. Bg2 simply does it better. It's a bigger game. Bigger Scope. It just has *more* of everything.

 

 

I played IWD recently and I agree with almost everything you said

 

Also, and I'm not talking about Romance, but there is no party interaction in IWD. You never get to know your party members or what motivates them..its like they are just paperdoll figures and exist only for combat. I didn't care who lived or died. As long as they were effective in combat. And yes I know its because you create your party in the beginning but that doesn't change the fact that there is palpable lack of believability around who was in your party as you couldn't relate to them in any way  

[Sensuki]

I definitely agree about Baldur's Gate itemization. The BGs have way more memorable items than the Icewind Dale games.

 

I think PE will err more on the Icewind Dale side. Since items are banalced, I don't think there'll be anything too exceptional.

[gban007]

 

 

My top 10? I don't maintain such lists, but off the top of my head here's a bunch of cRPG's I've enjoyed more than BG2 (so far), in no particular order:

 

Planescape: Torment

Fallout

Fallout 2

Fallout: NV

Morrowind

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer

The Witcher

The Witcher 2

IWD

Gothic 2

Vampire: Bloodlines

Have you ever tried the Avernum series?  Certainly not AAA titles, but I find them good story based cRPGs.

 

Avernum is an excellent game, really excited for the second remake.  So far Geneforge has the more interesting conflict.

 

Yeah, out today Still doing a run through of the first remake, so can't justify getting it as yet.

I own all the Geneforge games, but haven't actually tried any of them yet :/  

[Stun]

Well, the crafting system might mitigate things a bit, but yeah, you can tell already from the Backer beta that the loot (especially the magic weaponry) seems a bit.... ARPG'ish, shall we say?

[Sensuki]

I've actually summoned most of the items in the game just to check them out. I've seen a few that I liked but most of them were quite bland. Fine property plus one other thing. Exceptional property plus one other thing.

 

It's for a few reasons - namely, procs aren't as special in this game as they are in the IE games. That +1 Cold damage that Varscona gives freaking rules, and is unique. Here it's just meh.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[Stun]

That makes me sad. Contrary to the point of view of the typical Story-firster's who don't care that much about this kind of stuff, There's tremendous role-play value in one's weapons. I'll Often cater my whole character's existence around a specific weapon. For example, a Samari-type character who only uses Celestial fury. A dwarf who's goal in life is to assemble Crom Faeyr and then wield it exclusively, as if it's his Birthright. An archer who's best friend is the Gesen Bow. An Evil Thief who sees Blackrazor as an extension of his personality. A neutral-aligned warrior who uses the Equilizer because it's the only weapon that *understands*. A mage who's walking stick of choice is the staff of the Magi. A Paladin who finds his holy Avenger. etc.

 

But you really can't do any of this when the weapon enchantments are nothing more than common prefixes and suffixes. Yuck.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Well honest best would be attempting all the hard encounters - there's that one in the sewers which you did. Windspear Hills has a few, and Firkraag (which isn't hard, but it might be for you). Guarded Compound, Twisted Rune, Watcher's Keep, Kangaxx and of course, the stuff in the Underdark.

 

If you don't like those, then yeahhhh.

ALL the hard encounters? Yikes.

 

I'll head to Windspear Hills then, and see if I like it.

 

@Stun Re gameplay, ultimately I define it by "I enjoy it more." So far I did enjoy IWD's gameplay a good deal more than BG2's. I could break it down, but that'd just make you argue it point by point and it wouldn't change the fact that I enjoy IWD's gameplay more so I don't see the point.

 

I've tried to introspect a bit, to identify where exactly it is that my enjoyment takes a nosedive. At least one such trigger is when I use metagame knowledge. Whether it is "do de'Arnise keep to get Korgan that sweet axe" or "prebuff Korgan with Chaotic Commands to counter the Chaos the enemy mage is going to cast in round 2," it ruins it for me. It feels like I'm cheating, and I don't like to cheat. And since we've established that gathering and using metagame knowledge -- "practicing BG2, not playing it" -- is kind of the point, well, there's a problem there.

 

Re the story, as I said I like the Bhaalspawn idea, and there's nothing wrong with evil-wizard-wants-to-exploit-it-for-his-own-ends either. There's however a lot more to story than the main conflict. All I've gotten of that is the expository dungeon and some dreams with rather clichéd villain monologue. ("You will SUFFER!" Come on.) Everything I've done since then has been entirely unrelated, and most of that just isn't very engagingly written.

[Stun]

There's meta-gaming galore in Icewind dale. You go straight from Wyrms tooth Glacier (where every enemy is frost based, and thus if you're not using fire based weapons and spells, you're doing things the long and hard way) to Lower Dorn's deep, (where your fire based weapons and spells have to be swapped out ASAP otherwise you're in for a world of hurt.)

 

I suppose you could do the transition from one to the other naturally and "pretend" that your character wouldn't know that he's about to experience a 180 environment change. But No good player does that. Instead, we all do exactly what you "hate" about BG2. We meta-game. We say: "oh yeah....lower dorn's deep. lets see. Gotta Swap out fireball for Ice knife. Sol's searing orb for Otiluke's freezing sphere etc."

 

Then you enter the Artisan district: Oh sh*t, Just remembered. Umberhulks all over the place. Quick, lets memorize Chaotic commands.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

That makes me sad. Contrary to the point of view of the typical Story-firster's who don't care that much about this kind of stuff, There's tremendous role-play value in one's weapons. I'll Often cater my whole character's existence around a specific weapon. For example, a Samari-type character who only uses Celestial fury. A dwarf who's goal in life is to assemble Crom Faeyr and then wield it exclusively, as if it's his Birthright. An archer who's best friend is the Gesen Bow. An Evil Thief who sees Blackrazor as an extension of his personality. A neutral-aligned warrior who uses the Equilizer because it's the only weapon that *understands*. A mage who's walking stick of choice is the staff of the Magi. A Paladin who finds his holy Avenger. etc.

 

But you really can't do any of this when the weapon enchantments are nothing more than common prefixes and suffixes. Yuck.

 

why can't you do such stuff with prefixes and suffixes?  in nwn 2, you could create weapons that had a wide range o' qualities and attributes. have grobnar use ________ metal to build a +(whatever) warhammer of (something nifty) and (something kewl) is beyond's stun's capacity to role-play? we hope that isn't the case.  is role-play tied to the developer giving the weapon a name?  that doesn't sound like Gromnir's rp experiences from pnp. is it 'cause the player has some choice in making the weapon and deciding its qualities what offend's stun's rp sensibilities? why? would not acquiring resources to craft a personal weapon be sounding like the kinda thing stun could role-play?

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[PrimeJunta]

There's meta-gaming galore in Icewind dale. You go straight from Wyrms tooth Glacier (where every enemy is frost based, and thus if you're not using fire based weapons and spells, you're doing things the long and hard way) to Lower Dorn's deep, (where your fire based weapons and spells have to be swapped out ASAP otherwise you're in for a world of hurt.)

Not so. The game told me that I'll be going to Wyrm's Tooth Glacier which was a bit of a giveaway, so I loaded up on fire before going there. The entrance to Lower Dorn's Deep made it clear that there's gonna be more fire deeper in, so I swapped my spells on the first rest. The salamanders and constructs at that point weren't much of a problem. Honest, did not metagame there, just took an extra rest when I saw what the environment looked like.

 

(Edit: also Wyrm's Tooth was really easy, I don't think I even used much magic there, just chewed through everybody with Stabby the Berserker.)

 

I suppose you could do the transition from one to the other naturally and "pretend" that your character wouldn't know that he's about to experience a 180 environment change. But No good player does that. Instead, we all do exactly what you "hate" about BG2. We meta-game. We say: "oh yeah....lower dorn's deep. lets see. Gotta Swap out fireball for Ice knife. Sol's searing orb for Otiluke's freezing sphere etc."

 

Then you enter the Artisan district: Oh sh*t, Just remembered. Umberhulks all over the place. Quick, lets memorize Chaotic commands.

I talked to some people before going into Artisan District, and they told me there's a crazy mage there building an army of Umber Hulks. So I loaded up on Chaotic Commands. Honest to God, this is what I did. I almost never felt that the game was suckerpunching me. It did a little in Dragon's Eye when I was kind of led to expect more Talonians (-> memorize Hold Persons and other cleric-suppression things) but then it turned out they were actually Yuan-ti. And that's about it really. It wasn't super-obvious about it, but if you're paying attention the clues are there.

 

Not at all like "let's go to de'Arnise keep to get Viconia and Korgan some nice weapons."

Edited January 15, 2015 by PrimeJunta