Max Level?

[Opus131]

Personally i can't understand this obsession with earning more levels.

 

I thought level progression was FAR too fast in KOTOR (or maybe KOTOR was just too small, pick one), it makes leveling lose it's magic, it all becomes meaningless.

 

Also, once you reatch a certain level of power, in order to propose a challenge to the player Obsidian will have to throw large amount of epic enemies at you, which simply doesn't make sense.

 

I'm mean, isn't Darth Vader level 17 ?!? How can you have an entire army of low level sith troopers and a few low grade bosses be twice as powerful as the very Dark Lord ?!?

 

I dont' get munchkins, i really don't...

[Drakron]

You will be able to go beyond Level 20 in KOTOR2: TSL.

[Aegeri]

 

You will be able to go beyond Level 20 in KOTOR2: TSL.

I want to power level to level 99! Are there any Gods in the star wars universe I can kill ?

 

Ahhh well, the second game can be Munchkin seeing as the first game was Monty Haul.

[Drakron]

Yep ... I actually expected something like that, I have now grown great respect for european and eastern RPG developers.

 

I really dont know much about Star Wars: The Munchkin Lords but above level 20 is just the step in the wrong direction.

[Opus131]

I think a nice trade off would be to have levels mean less.

 

This way you can still be level 30 (and keep the munchkins happy with a steady leveling flow), and not have to be able to kill an army of yodas with one strike...

[Izumi Noa]

I was thinking that maybe they could set it such that for the last few levels, the character goes through stiffer experiences that trigger new abilities to deal with what is to come for the showdown.

 

They could also set other solutions for the end should the player fails to gain the abilities. Of course, the player should suffer penalties for the failure. And I don't mean in skills but in certain results from encounters.

 

... probably doesn't too good, does it? ...

[Craftsman]

Im lookin forward to those, progression animations.

[kefka]

All they have to do is space out the feats and powers more - the powers especially. It was the ability to 'spam' the force that made high level a joke. And you can't really get any stronger than you were in Kotor. if you add 10 levels directly to your original 20, then yes you'd be way overpowered, but 20 levels in Kotor2 won't be the same. You might need a prestige class to use those uber powers, with a few restrictions too.

[Volourn]

I sense lots of whining, and most of it comes from the Uusual Suspect. I'm still trying to figure out why he's here.

 

I much prefer level 1-20 myself; but there is nothing inherently wrong with level 20+. And, it's much better than artificial level caps ala NWN (original), BG seris, FO1, etc., etc.

 

It'll just be up to Obdisian to make sure the game is balanced depending on what level they expect you to be at the end.

 

 

That is all. :angry:

[kefka]

It'll just be up to Obdisian to make sure the game is balanced depending on what level they expect you to be at the end.

Exactly.

[Drakron]

My "whining" comes from reading the Star Wars d20 designer comments of why they did not created lv 20+ alternatives, they simply that Star Wars universe really does not present the kind of challanges for that kind of level play, a lv20 character in Star Wars simply have no challanges left.

 

If not for the use of the d20 system I would not have the same position but the d20 system is being used and I will ALWAYS have this position when it comes to the d20 system (not with the D&D system that is a diferent subject).

 

People that want more levels are either munchkin or too attached to their characters, since at best we end with a 40 hours game and there will be no direct sequel (again) I think we can rule out the attached crowd and that leaves the others.

 

Star Wars: The Munchkin Lords will simply repeate the same error that was done before, we once again end up with meanless combat and overpowerful (usually cheating) bosses because of high level play.

 

Then again, this is a quick buck schene just like Academy ...

[Volourn]

The d20 deisgner is irrelevant. He isn't making KOTOR2, and he isn't the one gonan ahev to balance it so his opinion menas crap in this case as pnp and video games are two completely different beasts. Period.

 

Quite frnakly, your arrogance is very sad. Leave those out whoa re attached to their characters? Lame. Mnay people just want to keep their characters, and see them grow in more than one way. There is nothingw rong with that.

 

What I find funny is depsite all your complaints and knowing full well ebfor ehand what KOTOR2 is trying to accomplish and not liking it; you'll be one of the first in line to buy it. Haha. Yet you expect Obsidian to take you seriously when they already ahve your $50 (or whatever) in their bank account.

[Drakron]

Volourn, I liked my Revan but I am not playing him again (and neither I wanted to) and I have grown attached to some of my characters, I have a Crab Fighter that I have been playing for almost a year now but really when I get around lv 16 there is no much point for my character to remain active since there are few things that can actually be a challange to him.

 

The day ancient red wrynn became grunts is the day I start to wonder why the hell my character is fighting creatures that could destroy most heroes alone and here he is fighting 4 of then because CR says so, retirement is a option and quite frankly even the most power hungry character would have set up his own domain and rule over others that to continue at some point.

 

That is what epic gameplay does to characters, its a option to continue without presenting a problem to the game world.

 

However this is a CRPG, lately games in general been short .... the kind "finsih in 3 days" short, I really dont expect new games to offer more that 40 hours of gameplay ... and when they are also console games ...

 

With the more limited CRPG character creation, control and development its much harder to be attached to a character, true that some people do but since they cannot do anything that play the same thing over again what is the point?

 

Lv30 does not equate to the character being present more in over 40 hours gameplay that cannot be done with lv20 or lv10.

 

Can you honetly say that ToB that offered more levels and power ove less time that BG1 had a stronger impact on the character dvelopment that BG1?

 

Attachment to a character is no excuse for a lv 20 system being turned over a lv 30 system if it will only allow 40 hours of play, only for The Munchkin Lords that have the need to talk about how their lv 35 character could beat Drizzt.

[silence]

I'm not looking to be power hungy, or tose around sith like ragdolls, I love a challenge, i want to see epic levels, with epic enemies.

:ph34r: :ph34r:

 

Would be nice to have chars, which are powerfull as the whole jediorder together B)

 

But maybe the solve would be, if is making so, that when you beat the game the first time, that you haven

[AlanC9]

The day ancient red wrynn became grunts is the day I start to wonder why the hell my character is fighting creatures that could destroy most heroes alone and here he is fighting 4 of then because CR says so, retirement is a option and quite frankly even the most power hungry character would have set up his own domain and rule over others that to continue at some point.

So the problem isn't the number of levels per se - the problem is the power of the character relative to the other things in the world.

 

True enough. The big problem with NWN epic levels isn't the number of levels possible, it's that NWN creatures were already balanced for a non-epic world. (Or in some cases, incredibly nerfed - but that's a different argument)

 

I'm not certain that high levels will necessarily be a bad thing in KotOR 2. It depends on how the devs implement. As long as your KotOR 2 character isn't any more relatively powerful in the endgame than your KotOR 1 character was, the actual level is just a number.

[Volourn]

The point is Drak, you complain people who wnat 20+ levels don't liek to role-play or ar epwoer gamers. That's baloney. It sure beats articial level caps ala KOTOR1. It's lame. Plain, and simple.

 

As for fightingd rgaons like they're common orcs; then the blamne is laid on the developer/DM. Neither of BIo's epic games ever let you fight dragons like they were just not another monster. Not one.

 

Once again, it is up to Obsidian to balance the game. If they are as skilled as we claim they should be able to do it.

 

As for BG1 vs. TOB; I think character development progressed pretty nicely for both with both advantages and disadvantages.

[Drakron]

Wrong Volourn.

 

The ability to roleplay is not linked to level and in fact most roleplayers I know tend to play at low level since they are usually uncaring about power, only people that care about power are powergamers and munchkin, the diference is a powergamer does not care about not being able to be higher that lv20 as long he is the most powerful legal character that could exist within the rules as munchkin only cares about levels and power, being legal or not not (they are usually cheaters, even if powergamers look for brokren combinations and broken rules for enchance their power they dont downright cheat).

 

In epic dragons ARE just another monster, that is the whole point of being epic, we can and sould challange the Gods in epic due to the incredible power we have, dragons belong to the realm of mortals that sould fear then to epics they are nothing more that a torn (well usually, give 20 levels of sorceror to a ancient dragon and things get diferent but dragons with class levels are the exception and not the rule) and really at the same scale of power that the epic heroes.

 

Its called epic for a reason and not "the above level 20 handbook".

 

And lets not go over about crap like "artificial level cap" since every single CRPG system have a cap level of some sort, Morrowind have a level cap of 99, Gothic 2 have level cap of 99, .hack// have a level cap of 99, Final Fantasy have a level cap of 99 ...

 

Why in god name there is no issue on those games about having a level cap, WHY ON EARTH IS THE NUMBER 99 A HELL LESS OF A PROBLEM THAT 20 ... I will never understand such mentality and never will ,,,

[Volourn]

They're not an issue; because the only way to rweach such levels is by purpsoely going for it.

 

You can reach level caps in the IE (outside of PST and IWD2) without even trying bu just playing the game "normally". Same with NWN OC, and espicially KOTOR, Plus TOEE. That's the problem.

 

Once again, if role-playing ha snothing to do with levels then if youa re truly a role-player which you are not; you wouldn't be whining about increased levels so much as long as Obsidian had role-plkaying for you to do. that's what matters to me. As long as the role-playing is as good at 25th level as it is at 5th level; I'm game.

 

Question: Which has more quality role-playing? NWN OC, or HOTU? 'Nough said.

[Drakron]

You left out SoU ... why?

 

Was it because on a lv20 system the adventure was designed for reaching lv14-16?

 

HotU was for epic level, the fact is we start as lv15 shows that the games was going to beat the lv20 cap fast, I think I got epic around the time I faced the dracolich with shows chapter 1 was non epic and chapter 2-3 were epic.

[Sorwen]

First, Ya for levels over 20. No, in the d20(SW) there are no SET levels over 20. Last comment I heard was they said there was not point. There is enough content to easily go over 20. They didn't feel a need to write epic level stuff. The level up progression is easy to follow they suggested just adding more levels. I assume what OB will do is give you about 30 maybe? 20 for a normal character level and 10 for prestige class. If that is the case hopefully they will let you level up back and forth so you don't have to wait for level 20 if you qualify for prestige at level 6.

 

I've wanted to play a Guardian/Weapon Master and hope they do the WM justice.

[Volourn]

Left SOU out fo what? The list of games with a phooey level cap or the comparision?

 

If the level cap thing; you are right. I elft it out as it was much more reasonable as there was no dnager of reaching it. That's a good thing unless you sat there and fought the respawns which would be a power agming thing to do.

 

If the comaprison it wa sbecause I was comapring HOTU and SOU's role-playing wise in comaprison to their power level. It's obvious to anyone who has played both, that HOTU has more roel-playing than NWN OC depsite it ebing an epic game. Not to mention, the one part of it that isn't epic (ch1) is the wekaest aprt of the role-playing. Go figure.

 

Once again,t he point is, epic level doesn't effect role-playing so for me its moot one way or the other.

[Drakron]

No you simply point "look here is a god awful story and then you have this better story".

 

Lv20 or Epic are not related to the quality of the story or roleplaying, SoU had lower level and handled the story better that NwN OC.

[Volourn]

No, it didn't. It was worst. Bad, bad move by you. It did certain thinsg right like better use of non combat skills; but the story was much, much, much worst.

[Drakron]

Beats "superlizards of the ice age" by a long shoot ... at least someone read the FRCS.

[Outkast007]

I feel my topic has incitied a riot, of differences.

 

I really think we should stop making unimformed assumptions about how the level system will be handled, I personally have faith in the development team to pull it of right.