What You See Is What You Get Loot System

[Sensuki]

NCarver recommended that I bring this issue up on the discussion forums instead of reporting bugs about it.

 

I'm going to use the dreaded opener that Sedrifilos hates so much :

 

IN THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES enemies dropped the loot that they had equipped. Enemies wearing Leather Armor +1, a Helmet, A Large Shield +1 and a Long Sword +1 dropped Leather Armor +1, a Helmet, A Large Shield +1 and a Long Sword +1 and whatever other hand placed or randomized loot assigned to them.

 

This currently does not happen in Pillars of Eternity. Some enemies, mostly named enemies, drop most of the loot they have equipped - such as Medreth's group - they drop most of their equipped items (but only one Hood as opposed to four, and Medreth no longer drops his armor). However mook enemies drop none of their gear.

 

If you kill a House Harond Guard equipped in Chain Armor, wearing a Helmet and some sort of Pollaxe, he drops ... like 9 copper pieces and that's it. Enemies in the Dyrford Ruins don't drop any of their cool armor, gear or headwear. There are guys in there wearing Exceptional Leather Armor carrying Exceptional Sabre's and other weapons - but they don't drop anything except some money.

 

The thugs in the recent Pillars of Eternity stream that attacked Aloth in Gilded Vale all had equipped weapons and cloth outfits, they dropped ... nothing except some money.

 

It was my impression that the loot system in Pillars of Eternity was supposed to be "What You See Is What You Get", as in, if an enemy has an item equipped, or is carrying an item - they drop those items. This is not what happens in Pillars of Eternity at present, either because there is no system set up for non party members to drop their items (and all instances have to be manually corrected by a designer) or it is not intended.

 

I would very much like WYSIWYG Loot, I would like to know if it is planned or intended and if not, I would like to strongly advocate for it.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

On this, I beg to differ. It was clunky, rather boring and over the top.

I'd much rather have it NWN2 style - mostly hand-placed loot on NPCs - and it's scarce and just one or two items.

 

I always chalked that scarcity up to some good old RPGing in me fantasy-head.

I saw before me reasons like:

-As I assaulted the baddies, much of their equipment broke (if non-magical)

-And much stuff simply didn't fit my character, or it was discarded for other reasons (e.g. vanity - cloak smelled, boots were ugly)

-Other stuff, my character naturally overlooked when searching in a distraught state after all those battles in hideous environments

 

Well, you get my drift, and also: Much less stuff to carry around (even if we have the Stash Portable Hole-thingie. So, I say, good riddance!

Edited November 25, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

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[Guest 4ward]

i agree with Sensuki, because i’d like to have at least a little bit of realism for the inventory system (with weight not being an issue, stashing items, not having ground items inv slots already in PoE working against that)

Edited November 25, 2014 by 4ward

[Namutree]

 

Well, you get my drift, and also: Much less stuff to carry around (even if we have the Stash Portable Hole-thingie. So, I say, good riddance!

Then just don't pick it up. You don't have to carry it.

[Starwars]

Depends a bit on how "controlled" the economy system is for me. With the stash present, one can just swipe everything (for better or worse, but the stash itself is another discussion). I can deal with the loss of realism *if* it means a more controlled economy where we don't become silly rich right away. Otherwise we can just slurp up every single piece of equipment and mass-unload it later from the stash.

 

If a more advanced trading system was put into place where traders can go "no, I don't want to buy your tenth crappy longsword", then yeah, I'd be in favor of the "what you see is what you get" system for sure. I generally like that better. Guessing that might be out of the game's scope for now though.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Well, you get my drift, and also: Much less stuff to carry around (even if we have the Stash Portable Hole-thingie. So, I say, good riddance!

Then just don't pick it up. You don't have to carry it.

 

 

But I don't want to have it in at all...

 

because i’d like to have at least a little bit of realism

 

 

No, I keed, I keed. I can live with a system like you describe here, and then I wouldn't pick everything up, but I honestly like the scattered-remains-approach better.

[archangel979]

I want what Sensuki says but with a bit of a twist. During mortal combat items get destroyed so I want WYSIWYG to determine base list of items and then a roll to see what items survived combat. Armors and shields should have least chance to survive fights while items like rings, amulets should have greatest.

[IndiraLightfoot]

archangel979: That is a pretty neat idea! I like it. And I'd like to add to that cool idea: If you have more of some skill like Lore or a higher stat, say Perception, you get slightly better rolls for good items to survive or be found/noticed.

[archangel979]

archangel979: That is a pretty neat idea! I like it. And I'd like to add to that cool idea: If you have more of some skill like Lore or a higher stat, say Perception, you get slightly better rolls for good items to survive or be found/noticed.

Yes, that would be a good idea as well. It would make some of those skills more useful.

[Sensuki]

They aren't gonna make a system with items that randomly get destroyed in combat, as that promotes save scumming to get the items.

[IndiraLightfoot]

That is not technically correct. You can make PoE saves devoid of random seeds generated when reloading. It's easy. The CiV series, which I know very well, have in years and years have no-random-seeds-on-reload activated by default.

[Kjaamor]

I sit somewhere in the middle. I dislike the idea of the enemies dropping gear that is plainly at odds to what they have equipped, but I also dislike, despise even, the idea of every enemy dropping every single piece of tat that they could have on their person. It creates clutter, and inevitably rewards bureaucratic workmanship rather than skill, strategy or tactics.

 

To my mind the IE games did this. I've always viewed it as an effective abstraction between acquiring loot and your character ignoring things that he considers insignificant. It also helps with pacing.

 

In PoE, I currently find that enemies drop a little too much crap, and would sooner they dropped a little less. In particular, high frequency, low cost cosmetic items like Skaen hoods are insignificant and serve as inventory bloat.

[Sensuki]

If you haven't realized, those items are worth money, and are often if not always worth more than the crummy 6cp or equivalent you pick up off every mook. The idea is that you sell those items for money. That is why the game has an unlimited stash, so the people that want to participate in the activity of taking everything but the kitchen sink can do so without multiple trips back to town.

 

However the more important issue is the actual valuable gear the player currently misses out on. If I kill some guy equipped with Exceptional Armor, I want to be able to loot that Exceptional Armor. If the designers don't want me to get Exceptional Armor from a mook, they shouldn't equip him with Exceptional Armor.

 

That is not technically correct. You can make PoE saves devoid of random seeds generated when reloading. It's easy. The CiV series, which I know very well, have in years and years have no-random-seeds-on-reload activated by default.

Not in an Infinity Engine style game, please.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sensuki

[Labadal]

I'd prefer it if the loot system was closer to the IE games.

 

What I mean by "closer to the IE games" is that all humanoid enemies should at least drop some gear.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hmm. Infinity Engine style can't take precedent each and every time. Not every single bit in those games was worth preserving for future generations.

 

Sensuki: You claimed that archangel979's feature would encourage save scumming, so you discarded the idea.

Then I tell you, as a modder, that it is easy to prevent that aspect from ever being save-scummable.

And you go: "Not in an Infinite Engine style game".

 

If you just don't like the feature, just say so.

Edited November 25, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Kjaamor]

If you haven't realized, those items are worth money, and are often if not always worth more than the crummy 6cp or equivalent you pick up off every mook. The idea is that you sell those items for money. That is why the game has an unlimited stash, so the people that want to participate in the activity of taking everything but the kitchen sink can do so without multiple trips back to town.

 

I'm familiar with the concept, yes. I still contend, however, that picking up everything but the kitchen sink and selling it is a terrible gameplay mechanic. I'm also a full subscriber to the notion that in many recent RPGs, not least the 3D Fallouts, not engaging in that terrible gameplay mechanic puts you at a substantial disadvantage, without once involving your skill, strategy or tactics. It is nothing more than a grind, and as such I not only strongly dislike it but would actively encourage its absence.

[Sensuki]

I wouldn't know I don't really play modern RPGs - for a good reason.

 

The ones I have played don't have this style of loot system.

 

If you just don't like the feature, just say so.

I'm not against it as a concept, but I would not like to see it in this game.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sensuki

[Barleypaper]

I can't stress enough how much I support WYSIWYG loot system. Not only is it far more realistic, but it also solves a problem I have with a lot of RPGs: I don't like being encouraged to pick everything up. I want some tat to drop (like it would in real life) so that I actualy think about what I do and do not want to keep. I don't just want a big "loot all" button that I mindlessly click 7 times after every battle.

 

People who don't like the crap don't have to loot it, loot hoarders get more tat to sell, RPers get their realism; Everybody's happy, right?

[Yonjuro]

... If I kill some guy equipped with Exceptional Armor, I want to be able to loot that Exceptional Armor. If the designers don't want me to get Exceptional Armor from a mook, they shouldn't equip him with Exceptional Armor....

 

 Exactly. I want to be able to loot the gear that the enemies were actually using. 

 

(I mean if they're going to go out dressed like that, they were asking for it. Amirite??) 

[Endrosz]

I sit somewhere in the middle. I dislike the idea of the enemies dropping gear that is plainly at odds to what they have equipped, but I also dislike, despise even, the idea of every enemy dropping every single piece of tat that they could have on their person. It creates clutter, and inevitably rewards bureaucratic workmanship rather than skill, strategy or tactics.

...

 

Same here. If we have specific loot tables (as opposed to the global loot tables of hack and slash games)  that respect the enemy type**, I'm happy and don't want any more "realism". The Gold Box ADnD games also used this equipped-dropped system, and yes, it created unnecessary clutter. This feature didn't make them better, but slightly worse. I'm not really against having such a system in place, but spending work hours to add it to the game? No.

 

** A memory: In the early days of Diablo 2, a single goblin ("fallen", whatever) I killed on harder difficulty dropped 2 full plate armors as loot. Now there's some deep pockets! It was incredibly wrong, but also very funny, it made me smile.

 

Edit: Fresh screen from Pool of Radiance, loot from a band of kobolds. No, this doesn't make me feel rewarded. But if there's any useful loot amongst the pile, then it's much harder to notice. Leaving behind valuable loot because of this was a real problem in these games.

 

Edited November 25, 2014 by Endrosz

[Gairnulf]

NCarver recommended that I bring this issue up on the discussion forums instead of reporting bugs about it.

 

I'm going to use the dreaded opener that Sedrifilos hates so much :

 

IN THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES enemies dropped the loot that they had equipped. Enemies wearing Leather Armor +1, a Helmet, A Large Shield +1 and a Long Sword +1 dropped Leather Armor +1, a Helmet, A Large Shield +1 and a Long Sword +1 and whatever other hand placed or randomized loot assigned to them.

 

This currently does not happen in Pillars of Eternity. Some enemies, mostly named enemies, drop most of the loot they have equipped - such as Medreth's group - they drop most of their equipped items (but only one Hood as opposed to four, and Medreth no longer drops his armor). However mook enemies drop none of their gear.

 

If you kill a House Harond Guard equipped in Chain Armor, wearing a Helmet and some sort of Pollaxe, he drops ... like 9 copper pieces and that's it. Enemies in the Dyrford Ruins don't drop any of their cool armor, gear or headwear. There are guys in there wearing Exceptional Leather Armor carrying Exceptional Sabre's and other weapons - but they don't drop anything except some money.

 

The thugs in the recent Pillars of Eternity stream that attacked Aloth in Gilded Vale all had equipped weapons and cloth outfits, they dropped ... nothing except some money.

 

It was my impression that the loot system in Pillars of Eternity was supposed to be "What You See Is What You Get", as in, if an enemy has an item equipped, or is carrying an item - they drop those items. This is not what happens in Pillars of Eternity at present, either because there is no system set up for non party members to drop their items (and all instances have to be manually corrected by a designer) or it is not intended.

 

I would very much like WYSIWYG Loot, I would like to know if it is planned or intended and if not, I would like to strongly advocate for it.

100% agree.

[Seari]

On this, I beg to differ. It was clunky, rather boring and over the top.

You mean realistic?

 

vanity - cloak smelled, boots were ugly

Seriously? Adventuring is a very dangerous line of work - but let's throw practicality out of the window, because **** it, I wanna look fashionable.

 

If that bandit I just killed has a shortbow, I wanna see it on the ground, I don't care if I'll use it or not.

 

Much less stuff to carry around (even if we have the Stash Portable Hole-thingie. So, I say, good riddance!

Who says you have to hoard everything you see FFS.

[DeHavilan]

As long as it doesn't detract from other things bring touched up right now, I completely agree with Sensuki.  As long as the UI is well designed, it shouldn't create a problem with picking out "useful" items from loot piles, and it really adds to the immersion to have enemies actually have equipment like the PC.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

On this, I beg to differ. It was clunky, rather boring and over the top.

You mean realistic?

 

Haha! CRPGs are never realistic. That's no argument that holds sway here, that was why I turned the tables and used that as an argument myself.

 

vanity - cloak smelled, boots were ugly

Seriously? Adventuring is a very dangerous line of work - but let's throw practicality out of the window, because **** it, I wanna look fashionable.

 

If that bandit I just killed has a shortbow, I wanna see it on the ground, I don't care if I'll use it or not.

 

Heh! Depends on what character you have, I guess. Still, like Endrosz showed us. These games flooded us with junk, and for no real reason, actually, and I say this as someone who likes invo shuffling.

 

Much less stuff to carry around (even if we have the Stash Portable Hole-thingie. So, I say, good riddance!

Who says you have to hoard everything you see FFS.

 

If stuff has monetary value in a CRPG, I can't help myself. I just hoard them and sell them. You wouldn't believe how much toing-and-froing I've done in the BG games, for instance. It's my flaw, I get it, but I'd much rather do without this excessive tedium.