Thoughts from a casual gamer

[Cubiq]

Fun is such a vague and subjective thing. How much will the fun of the system be affected by proper gear, a more comprehensive talent list and a more refined ui? The fun of combat is an extremely subjective thing that is heavily impacted by a multitude of factors not just one.

Your idea of fun is to play the game as passively as possible from what i've seen, so i don't even get why you would have an issue with it since you would be able to play absolutely the same as you have now.

[Shevek]

I play passively on trash and active on named/tough mobs. Works very well. Love the system. It is quite fun. If you choose active builds and complain about pausing you are causing your own problems.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Shevek

[Cubiq]

I play passively on trash and active on named/tough mobs. Works very well. Love the system. It is quite fun. If you choose active builds cand complain about pausing you care causing your own problems.

I never complained about pausing,  Magniloquent did.

And you are absolutely the only one on the forum that has said that combat is fun.

Sorry it isn't, you are an anomaly.

[Shevek]

I think people are testing the system primarily with the BB Npcs. Those are poorly built. They have poor stats and talent selection. If they want to use different weapons they end up using level 1 stuff that is way under level (loses 25% dmg + accuracy bonus). This is a flawed testing methodology. We are playing undergeared with poorly built npcs. I dont think internal testers are limited in this way which is why I am sure OE listens to them more.

 

I made a full line of custom guys fully set up for my style. This is how I plan on playing in the actual game. I am still undergeared (no rings, boots, etc; just fine weaps and armor) but it still works quite well.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Shevek

[Captain Shrek]

I play passively on trash and active on named/tough mobs. Works very well. Love the system. It is quite fun. If you choose active builds and complain about pausing you are causing your own problems.

I doubt that this is true. There is NO way that you can play passively in PoE. It's just not a solution. Even against trash. You are either very good at the game and have super human reflexes or are very lucky. 

[Shevek]

Look, I pause when I kill stuff and switch targets. I also cast stuff on REALLY tough enemies like Adra beetles. I lead with my tank as well. This is exactly how I played the IE games when I fought trash (and didnt want to cheese things with web and stinking cloud). The game plays fine.

 

Hell, we dont even have all our tools yet and I can play it just fine. Wait till we get traps, and usable items, and enchanted crap, and weapons that leech, and etc etc etc.

[Captain Shrek]

Look, I pause when I kill stuff and switch targets. I also cast stuff on REALLY tough enemies like Adra beetles. I lead with my tank as well. This is exactly how I played the IE games when I fought trash (and didnt want to cheese things with web and stinking cloud). The game plays fine.

 

Hell, we dont even have all our tools yet and I can play it just fine. Wait till we get traps, and usable items, and enchanted crap, and weapons that leech, and etc etc etc.

 

 

It's not just pausing. I have to use actives all the time to keep the mobs busy and stop them from using their full potential. Also, auto attacks whittle them down too slow. I have to use all the Rogue abilities against enemies like the beetles (which are trash mobs btw). 

[Shevek]

I cleared most of Dyrford Crossing except for the Druids with little ability use other than like Cipher blind on the tough mobs. The egg thieves are easy. The wolves are easy. The beetles are easy. No excessive micro needed. I admit, I leave the Druids for later. In the Spider Cave, the crytal eaters were a problem but that OP AoE ice ability was the only issue in that area. Etc etc etc..

Just average toe to toe stuff felt fine.

 

Edit: 

Btw, the only skill my custom ranged rogue uses is the snare and I rarely use it. Theres a difference when you build a guy from the ground up rather than try to shoehorn a gameplay style on a suboptimal build with suboptimal gear. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

For you feeling fine is just standing there doing nothing. That is precisely my point. It is insanely dull and boring.
 

I'm simply pointing out that you suggest and defend the elements that make your overall ideas and anti-ideas work, but when asked why your overall ideas should be embraced you quickly revert back to the "It's obviously better" and have next to no argument for why.

 

That's not true at all. I have repeatedly stated why. Short points that I have repeated are AoOs in RT is wrong on a conceptual level. It's implementation is worse than the NWN games. The targeting clauses are like an MMO aggro mechanic which is something that they said this game would not have. The system makes movement in melee a pointless exercise (even with the terrible abilities to go with the mechanic), thus making the gameplay less tactical than the Infinity Engine games. I do not believe anyone can argue that PE combat is more tactical than the IE games, some have attempted to but when pushed they revealed that they cheesed the game thus making it "easy" and because they haven't yet "cheesed" the game in PE, PE combat is more tactical which is a ludicrous position, using the excuse that the game is "unfinished" when I have stated that it is cheesable.

There are only two positions that Obsidian will take on the subject I believe. They will defend the mechanic's implementation as is, or they will remove it because they can't get it to work. They won't change it in any way that anyone has suggested here. 

 

There's nothing wrong with people preferring more passive combat in general, but I do not believe it was supposed to be the aim of this game. If the game didn't have 'pacing' issues that require more pausing, it would be a very dull game. The aim was for tactical real-time combat that required more active micromanagement from the player, currently the game isn't very tactical. When confronted with the idea that PE plays more like NWN2, I believe Obsidian would contest that proposition - however people here seem to agree. There are people in this thread that prefer it because it feels that way.

It's up to them, if they want the combat to feel more like playing an Infinity Engine game, they need to remove this system.

 

 

 

On the subject at hand, I do not mind blocking when it is done in the context of fighting, just when it is in the context of pathfinding. The enemy are trying and may eventually get through the PoE blocker, they are trying and will never get past the IE one. Engagement is a system that attempts to resolve those issues, amongst others. That you do not recognise them as issues is fine, but that is your opinion and no amount of graphs or length of word document will change that.

 

Blocking 'pathfinding' is a legitimate tactic though. If you want someone to not get past you, you cut them off. I really hate using real-life examples in my arguments because having to do it is retarded but anyway - think about soccer, defenders quite literally block the path of attackers moving the ball forward and they move left and right and force them down the side of the pitch so that they can't get past / can't get a clear shot on goal. You can block a human opponent the same as an AI one - if they can't get past you and don't have an ability to get you out of the way their only option is to attack you.

That said, Melee Engagement does not stop pathfinding blocking. You can use it to manipulate the enemy positions so that they are jammed in a narrow space.  The units that are engaged by you cannot do anything except auto-attack you. They will not try and move past you and they will prevent other units behind them from moving past as well because they are blocking the space.The system also prevents you from moving your units even slightly to the side to accommodate for fitting more of your units in melee, which is silly. 

It makes it easier to do this. If you hate this method, then I can't see why you'd defend it because it was created to do stuff like this.

 

 

 

If I have become more mocking of late, it is because I have become exasperated with opinion being stated as if it were fact.

 

That's what I meant when I said it was not about arguing for the engagement system, I was not implying that it was personal.

People can disagree all they like, but I'm going to keep arguing in the same fashion.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lord Wafflebum]

@Cpt Shrek

I fully understand you disbelief. I was ready to call BS on Shevek, but I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Check out his newb guide video and how he built the party. I've played around with it a bit to make it more to my liking, but it is fully possible to play passively. I play a bit more semi-passively because I like to play around with skills, but at least on normal it isn't too tough. It truly is a matter of the mechanics of the game not being obvious. I've since changed my opinion from my original post that combat isn't tough, but I do think the rules are vague, difficult to understand, and not terribly fun.

 

This thread apparently devolved into an argument about preference on engagement. I'm at a point where I'm indifferent. Normally I'm one of the first to jump on Sensuki's bandwagon, but this time I honestly think it could work out either way. I feel as though the engagement system suffers due to a lack of play time from the devs as it currently stands. Things that sound good on paper don't always work out well in practice. Sensuki I feel is correct in that engagement is far from an ideal mechanic, but I don't think there's enough evidence that it cannot be worked on along with some AI tweaking to make it function ok. Shevek I think is also on point, where from my new ability to survive combat there is a very real possibility that balance is to blame for many of the shortcomings, but I also haven't seen a compelling argument for that, either. 

 

What's going to matter most I think is what the devs feel after their playthrough week. They know the systems better than anyone and after they spend time to actually feel how they work in practice is when we will the most positive tweaks to combat functionality. So, my guess is that next patch we'll see some changes to the feel of combat and be able to go from there. I think we can all agree that it is highly unlikely that they'll do their playthroughs and say, "Yep, this is perfect. Let's keep combat as-is for the full release."

[Lephys]

Feel free to reference my post history against Lephys' and see which one contains less superfluous content.

I don't know about you, but I'm not about to play the "who's the better poster" game. This isn't a freakin' competition, it's a discussion forum. That, and every single time I've actually been concise, I get attacked for being too vague. If I'm going to be damned if I do and damned if I don't, then I'm gonna go full elaboration. I'm sorry, that's just me. That doesn't mean I go around scoffing at others and thinking "man, if only everyone had MY brain, and typed just like I did, the world would be perfect," while I polish the gold statue of myself I keep in my Me Shrine.

 

This is just plain ridiculous. You might as well just make fun of my appearance, or anything else inherent to my being. Because it achieves the same affect.

 

I'm not even defending me, because I'm flawed as crap. But I can't just will myself to be less flawed. I am me, and I can't be not-me. So I do what I can. I'm defending human friggin' decency. And there's absolutely no reason make it contingent upon your perceptions of the quality of someone's posting prowess.

 

I seriously have nothing against you, Sensuki. You have tons of great posts, you know a crap ton more than I do about a lot of things, etc. I don't think I'm better than you, or anyone else. I just think I have thoughts and ideas that might be useful to a collective discussion, so I make them. If they're too long, or too disorganized, you can either ignore them and just say "sorry, but I'm not going to read all that," or actually address them and give me useful feedback. There's no reason to ridicule my posting ability. You're free to tear apart my points and arguments all you want.

 

Lephys has a history of coming into threads late well after the issues have been discussed making large posts with many analogies trying to defend the developer's implementation. Hiro Protagonist II calls him out on it regularly, and I believe he is right.

I didn't realize the right to discuss something was time-sensitive. My mistake. There's a history, all right, and it's of people taking my posts as direct challenges to everything that's come before them, for some reason. I think that's where the whole "late" thing comes in as irksome to people. I don't know why this is, either. Like in this topic. You seem to have decided that I've claimed all your previous posts are irrelevant, or even targeted you at all, when all I did was come in and share what I felt on the topic. I'm not even defending the developers' implementation. I'm simply observing and evaluating game design decisions.

 

I'm honestly incredibly sorry if, for some reason, my posts come across as "Lephys rocks, and everyone should be like him, and all your posts are stupid simply because I have some different thoughts on the matter," but I have never expressly stated any of that, nor had the intention of even implying anything of the sort.

 

And, for the record, just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I don't think they've made good points and/or excellent posts. There's such a thing as constructive argument. I don't know why you take my "I dunno, I think this whole engagement idea can work just fine, and serves a purpose" to somehow mean "all that effort and text you've put into proposals and posts before now? It's all STUPID AND WRONG, LOLZ!" But I'm sorry, again, that it seems that way, for whatever reason. I just wish people would stop assuming my meanings, and just ask me what I meant.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Lephys

[StrangeCat]

Never say your sorry to anyone on the internet everyone is of less importance.  Everyone has an opinion and everyone assumes there opinion is the right one.  Never get caught up and lose sleep or energy arguing a point, it's waste of time.

 

Don't look for some silly group to get approval from anyone or from a forum either.  Most people have no clue it's just there opinion.  Honestly everyone is just human and has all the same faults.  People on the internet matter as much as some stranger you pass by on the street.

 

Lost touch with your game it's pretty crazy market out there with the AAA Rpg's starting to show up.  

Looking to see what you present though.

[Jon of the Wired]

I've been spending some time playing the latest beta this evening, and I'm actually finding the combat pretty ok. The balance is still wacky, and it could be a bit slower, but I don't think there's anything about the fundamental mechanics that I'd change.

 

I like engagement, though it might be more mechanically heavy than is really necessary. It gives my front line an effective way to protect my back line, and it makes melee enemies feel more dangerous, both of which I like. Obviously, by making movement more dangerous, there will be less of it in a fight but I have no real problem with that. If you need to get away from an enemy that's engaging you there are plenty of ways to do it, but they'll require abilities and therefore consume resources. This gives you interesting choices to make, and it feels good to me. Then again, I don't think I ever reached nearly the level of competence in playing IE games as some posters on this board, and I was never running characters around all over the place in those games either.

 

I don't think combat would be improved by being more RTS like, just as I don't think Gone Home should have played more like Quake 3. It's a very different kind of game, and I expect the AI in an RPG to behave in a more human fashion, which is to say it should be equal parts clever, unpredictable, and sometimes irrational. The AI in PoE doesn't come close to that yet, but I still have hope (maybe for PoE 2). I don't want to be able to manage the AI by knowing exactly how it will behave in a given circumstance. Rather, I want the mechanics of the game to allow me to force the AI to make hard choices (and I want the AI to do the same to me).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If you need to get away from an enemy that's engaging you there are plenty of ways to do it, but they'll require abilities and therefore consume resources.

 

Can you list those 'plenty of ways' to do it in the game..

Edited November 14, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Zeckul]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, I brought this up a few months ago myself.

 

Basically:

 

 - Easy difficulty should be easy. As in, even with a severely unoptimized party, players shouldn't have to think much to win most battles. Focus fire maybe, mostly let the AI do its thing.

 - Trash mobs in particular (like those Beetles) should be easy on all difficulties except the most hardcore ones. Most people don't want every fight to be a tactically challenging one, and for those who do, higher difficulty modes are there for that. Difficult trash mobs severely break pacing, putting too great an emphasis on routine combat.

 

As much as this game has everything going for it and I really want to enjoy, if difficulty stays what it is in the beta I'm just not going to be able to. I don't want to have to figure out how to exploit the combat system in depth before getting any fun out of the game. None of the IE games were like that, I'm sorry - yes the system was complicated and sometimes unfair but even Icewind Dale 2 wasn't remotely this involved.

[Jon of the Wired]

 

If you need to get away from an enemy that's engaging you there are plenty of ways to do it, but they'll require abilities and therefore consume resources.

 

Can you list those 'plenty of ways' to do it in the game..

 

 

The Rogue's Escape ability, anything that stuns or knocks down an enemy (Knock Down, Repulsing Seal, Mental Binding, plenty of others), the Priest spell Withdraw, the Fighter's Into the Fray power, powers that dramatically increase Deflection like Arcane Veil can help a lot. I'm sure there're lots of others, I'm not even going to try to make an exhaustive list.

[Shevek]

The chanter has a song to reduce accuracy of disengagement attacks as well - that one is AoE. There are plenty of ways to react to engagement. Players also have to option to eat an engagement attack if its from a crappy enough enemy or they have taken talents to improve their defense against engagement attacks.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Shevek

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The Rogue's Escape ability, anything that stuns or knocks down an enemy (Knock Down, Repulsing Seal, Mental Binding, plenty of others), the Priest spell Withdraw, the Fighter's Into the Fray power, powers that dramatically increase Deflection like Arcane Veil can help a lot. I'm sure there're lots of others, I'm not even going to try to make an exhaustive list.

 

So I should hold onto those powers like knockdown for times when my fighter's health is low and for disengagement attacks. Because if I used knockdown earlier in an encounter and have no way of escaping later, then my fighter could be screwed. And if I decide to not have a Priest in my party? I'm not asking for an exhaustive list, I only asked since you said there were 'plenty of ways' to do so.

[Doppelschwert]

So I should hold onto those powers like knockdown for times when my fighter's health is low and for disengagement attacks. Because if I used knockdown earlier in an encounter and have no way of escaping later, then my fighter could be screwed.

 

 

Is that problematic in your eyes?

[archangel979]

In the stream Jesse wanted to move all the time during combat but Josh kept telling him "it is a bad idea".

 

I think Josh should learn from this and say to himself "engagement is a bad idea if new players want to do opposite of what we implemented all the time."

[IndiraLightfoot]

At least, give the new player clear feedback on what is happening. Invisible engagement attacks are nuts, and they shouldn't hit all the time. An AoO system like that in NWN2 is a bare minimum requirement for it to work (but with top-notch feedback).

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

The Rogue's Escape ability, anything that stuns or knocks down an enemy (Knock Down, Repulsing Seal, Mental Binding, plenty of others), the Priest spell Withdraw, the Fighter's Into the Fray power, powers that dramatically increase Deflection like Arcane Veil can help a lot. I'm sure there're lots of others, I'm not even going to try to make an exhaustive list.

 

So I should hold onto those powers like knockdown for times when my fighter's health is low and for disengagement attacks. Because if I used knockdown earlier in an encounter and have no way of escaping later, then my fighter could be screwed. And if I decide to not have a Priest in my party?

Yes, you're asked to make tactical and strategical choices. What a truly terrible thing to do in a game that's trying to be about tactical and strategical combat.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[nipsen]

Yes, you're asked to make tactical and strategical choices. What a truly terrible thing to do in a game that's trying to be about tactical and strategical combat.

 

...hypothetically speaking.

[Sensuki]

Yes, you're asked to make tactical and strategical choices. What a truly terrible thing to do in a game that's trying to be about tactical and strategical combat.

There aren't many tactical choices to be made in PE combat. There's a lot of trap choices though - two of those are moving, and selecting abilities related to engagement.

[Shevek]

Again, zero explanation.

 

I would also disagree. Movement in combat in PE is not as common as in the IE games but it is occaisionally useful. Though not in my short combat vid, I have had plenty of instances (in boss fights) where I moved characters after hitting the chanter disengagement song and backed off with an injured character and had another step in.

 

I disagree about "trap" choices. I think the game is in beta and they added a slew talents in the very latest patch. Calling talent choices "trap" choices at this stage is premature at best.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Shevek