What PoE really is and why it is the future

[Sheikh]

If that's what you mean by inspiration then your entire OP is a joke. It's really not up to the player to define a developer's inspiration, and even if it was, it's still a remarkably subjective thing.

I am not defining the developers inspiration or anything and I am not going to. I feel the innovation and love inside the game and assume that since the game was created by the developers, this innovation and love comes from the developers and in particular from their inspiration.

 

It's got the deepest lore of any RPG to come out in the last 30 years. (you can spend hours and hours and hours reading the in-game books...and the various different volumes and versions of each one) 

 

 

Again deep doesnt mean it is inspired at all.

 

 

Take Skyrim, for example. Whether you're someone who loved that game or hated it, it oozes inspiration from a developer's standpoint. The world itself contains OCD level detail (there are 5 different types of butterflies for God's sake. Developers hand-placed every plate, cup, piece of fruit, book, item and gold piece on every shelf, table, cabinet and drawer in the massive 300+ hour gameworld.) 

 

 

 

That is extremely shallow level expression of inspiration that could only come from extremely shallow and small inspiration at best, I doubt you need to be inspired at all to do the job of hand placing objects into the game. The inspiration I see in PoE starts with the whole concept of the game and is of much grander scale.

 

Developers standpoint on their own inspiration and your standpoint on their inspiration are completely different. You have literally no idea what the developers standpoint is on their own inspiration, unless you have interviewed them or something along those lines, in that case you might have some slight idea at best, perhaps. You only know what your standpoint on their inspiration is and since you brought out your standpoint on developers standpoint on their inspiration (which is nonsensical), you have just indirectly told me you therefore dont know of any inspiration in skyrim because if you actually had a standpoint on the inspiration in skyrim, you would bring it out as your own instead of as the developers. Again I say if you feel it you feel it, if not, its not there. Dont bother cerebrating over it.

 

You can shoot at the birds that fly overhead. you can jump in the water and catch the 8 different types of fish. The game has 9 playable races. Even the game's various DLCs clock in at 50+ hours of content each.

 

 

Content, features, technical advancement. Whether theres inspiration behind any of it or not is a completely seperate matter. Again since what you bring out has absolutely nothing to do with inspiration, its telling you just dont see any inspiration in skyrim.

 

Yet, Skyrim is very much a modern game, designed for the stereotypical, modern, casual gamer and I'm positive that neither you nor anyone else on this thread would ever hold it up as an example of "effort and heart!"

 

 

Yeah, but not because its modern or for the casual gamer. Those things in themselves are fine or even good as far as they go. I would not bring it out as an example of effort or heart because theres none of that in there, or inspiration.

 

So I'll ask again: Define Inspiration.

 

 

Pointless. You feel it and therefore know intuintively what it is or you dont either way. I can tell you dont, so far.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Never seen anyone use the word inspiration in so many posts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stun]

And what's even more obnoxious is that he doesn't even know what the word means. I have asked him to give us his definition of it but he's refused. So we will turn to the dictionary instead.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inspiration

 

in·spi·ra·tion noun \ˌin(t)-spə-ˈrā-shən, -(ˌ)spi-\

 

: something that makes someone want to do something or that gives someone an idea about what to do or create : a force or influence that inspires someone

 

: a person, place, experience, etc., that makes someone want to do or create something

 

: a good idea

 

 

Whether you love or hate the state of RPG's that are coming out today, there's plenty of them that ooze inspiration by definition. PoE does not constitute some "return" of something that has been absent/lost. The very premise of this thread is silly. Try harder Sheikh.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Stun

[constantine]

I ve really tried to like the Elder Scrolls Series, but no matter what they add their game world always feels empty, due to swallow characters and uninspired, generic invironments.

 

As another important note, the gameplay has always been terrible.

 

PoE will undisputably be much more inspired- it is Obsidian and if there's one area they excel this is crafting great stories and creating colourful campaign worlds- they even managed to 'ressurect' the Fallout frarnsize, after the huge fail that was Fallout 3 (it was a fail to fans of the old games).

[Stun]

PoE will undisputably be much more inspired- it is Obsidian and if there's one area they excel this is crafting great stories and creating colourful campaign worlds- they even managed to 'ressurect' the Fallout frarnsize, after the huge fail that was Fallout 3 (it was a fail to fans of the old games).

So in your opinion, the only measurement of inspiration in a video game is... a good story? Edited November 2, 2014 by Stun

[Sheikh]

: a good idea

 

 

Whether you love or hate the state of RPG's that are coming out today, there's plenty of them that ooze inspiration by definition.

 

Thats perhaps the best defintition, though its extremely abstract. I did not personally find those other definitions useful from the dictionary. Was skyrim a good idea, did it contain good ideas? Not really. It was a pretty horrible game and making it was a huge waste of effort, money and time for the people involved in my opinion.

 

If I had to define inspiration it would be:

Creative talent unlocked by experiencing of something already created.

 

I think its fascinating that you are so interested in inspiration and want to find out what it is.

 

Ha! And they accuse me of being 'shallow'. 

 

 

I dont think anyone has accused you of anything.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[Sheikh]

I ve really tried to like the Elder Scrolls Series, but no matter what they add their game world always feels empty, due to swallow characters and uninspired, generic invironments.

 

As another important note, the gameplay has always been terrible.

 

PoE will undisputably be much more inspired- it is Obsidian and if there's one area they excel this is crafting great stories and creating colourful campaign worlds- they even managed to 'ressurect' the Fallout frarnsize, after the huge fail that was Fallout 3 (it was a fail to fans of the old games).

 

You need to be able to seperate all that is there and all that is good in elder scrolls from that which is not there and that which you would need to imagine, perhaps (to get an even better experience). I mean the music in Morrowind was really good, so I can just listen to that and ignore the lack of a decent NPC environment and instead focus my mind on what my character is up to at that particular time. It may or may not be enjoyable depending on what you are presently looking for in a game.

 

In a way that is true. Oblivions gameplay was in most ways much better than Morrowinds for sure, on the other hand Oblivion was a totally uninspired and fairly generic fantasy grind, fundamentally like playing counter strike.

 

Interesting perspective on fallout, not a fan of those games, but good to know, thanks.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[dorkboy]

[...]

Oblivions gameplay was in most ways much better than Morrowinds for sure, [...]

No, not really. Stealth and archery gameplay was improved. The rest was largely dumbed down, streamlined out of the game, subject to broken character progression, turned into annoying minigames or lacking the same sense of exploration/freedom. 

[Moirnelithe]

I also believe that Kickstarter and Early Access affects the big publishers and rubs them in a good way, motivating and inspiring AAA companies to get in touch with their "feeling" again. Publishers giving the developers (the creative people) more room to breath and do their thing... well, at least I hope they do.

 

For some reason that sounded really dirty to me...    Nevermind, carry on.

[Sheikh]

 

[...]

Oblivions gameplay was in most ways much better than Morrowinds for sure, [...]

No, not really. Stealth and archery gameplay was improved. The rest was largely dumbed down, streamlined out of the game, subject to broken character progression, turned into annoying minigames or lacking the same sense of exploration/freedom. 

 

The gameplay was alot more functional though I think. The NPCs were all alot more lively and natural. Yes you are right it was dumbed down some, personally I most missed some stats for example and other such variety.

[Stun]

If I had to define inspiration it would be:

Creative talent unlocked by experiencing of something already created.

OK, I guess that explains Obsidian pitching us an IE game successor and then delivering us a game with constricting melee engagement mechanics, bottomless, weightless inventories, a borked group stealth design, and a convoluted stamina-health system.

 

LOL by all means, go ahead and call that inspiration. I'll call it what it is: yet another failed attempt to reinvent the wheel.

 

Anyone else find it interesting that the only things in PoE that have received universal praise happen to be the small handful of things they didn't alter from the Infinity engine games?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Stun

[Yellow Rabbit]

Every time I hear "games were better back then" I prepare myself for distinguishing whether the speaker has not seen good games now, has not seen bad games back then, thinking everything from back then was better because he was basically another person, or smart enough to speak about specific genre or niche. Not that I'm disagreeing with OP about that inspiration stuff with industry just shaping itself etc, but generalizations are usually bad thing. IMHO what Obsidian really doing with PoE (and inXile with WL2 and T:ToN, and Larian with D:OS, and Harebrained with Shadowrun) is kicking dead mare named "pnp-inspired-crpg" which suddenly appeared to be not nearly as dead as someone would think. That's just awesome for everyone fond of riding this horse, so thanks should be in order despite the quality of these games as they are. I think.

[Zeckul]

I ve really tried to like the Elder Scrolls Series, but no matter what they add their game world always feels empty, due to swallow characters and uninspired, generic invironments.

 

As another important note, the gameplay has always been terrible.

Ugh, don't get me started on ES. I can't believe "Skyrim" is what most kids these days think of when you say "RPG". It's just blasphemy.

[Sheikh]

Every time I hear "games were better back then" ..., but generalizations are usually bad thing.

 

Yes. I have myself not made any such generalizations in this thread that I am aware of and I havent seen anyone else make them either. I have definitely seen the bad games back then. I have seen the good games now - world of tanks and pillars.

 

But the "industry" that rides the "old" single player derived style of games train is not producing anything worthwhile, I dont know of a single such game within the last 8 years or so perhaps that could even be started to be considered good. Pillars is of this style, but it is not part of that outdated (and socialist, compared to kickstarter) developer-publisher-distributor model "industry". Tanks is not that style of game and perhaps not even apart of that industry either.

 

IMHO what Obsidian really doing with PoE (and inXile with WL2 and T:ToN, and Larian with D:OS, and Harebrained with Shadowrun) is kicking dead mare named "pnp-inspired-crpg" which suddenly appeared to be not nearly as dead as someone would think. That's just awesome for everyone fond of riding this horse, so thanks should be in order despite the quality of these games as they are. I think. 

 

 

Thats kind of the retracing I mentioned in my OP from my viewpoint. First we go back, find out what we lost along the way, take it back and go on on a new path from there, combining this "reacquired" knowledge with what we actually already have gained from going forward on a somewhat mistaken path - which is technology in making games most of all, I think.

 

Theres tons of indie games available on places like steam and other places these days as well that dont even use the technology much at all. This is all part of it as well, as we are testing whether this technology we have developed while moving on this mistaken path is even worthwhile, though I believe for the most part we will find it is.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[constantine]

 

PoE will undisputably be much more inspired- it is Obsidian and if there's one area they excel this is crafting great stories and creating colourful campaign worlds- they even managed to 'ressurect' the Fallout frarnsize, after the huge fail that was Fallout 3 (it was a fail to fans of the old games).

So in your opinion, the only measurement of inspiration in a video game is... a good story?

No.

 

But it is of utmost importance in a role-playing game, that and how that story intercepts with characters, as are those characters to begin with.

 

The equally in par aspect for such a rpg is combat, where Obsidian will most likely fail to deliver. You can see this even now, in the BB. One can dream, however, that this won t be the case.

 

Still, PoE is much more inspired than generic, soul-less games like the ES.

 

I won t deny that it s enjoyable to read about the ES Campaign world, but the games themselves ruin all the anticipation I have to delve into this world.

[Stun]

 

So in your opinion, the only measurement of inspiration in a video game is... a good story?

No.

 

But it is of utmost importance in a role-playing game, that and how that story intercepts with characters, as are those characters to begin with.

 

The equally in par aspect for such a rpg is combat, where Obsidian will most likely fail to deliver. You can see this even now, in the BB. One can dream, however, that this won t be the case.

 

Yeah, but that's thing. A Great story but crap combat/game mechanics gives us something.... Ordinary - something that wouldn't, at all, at stand out as unusual today. Witcher 2 had a great story and crap combat.

 

The reverse is also true. Great combat and crap story is also very common in games these days. I'm currently on my 3rd playthrough of Divinity: Original sin. It fits perfectly here. The Combat is excellent, but the story and the NPC characterization is just shy of non-existent. I could have written a better narrative on my lunch break. And I'm no writer.

 

 

I don't see either of these as proof of some profound industry resurgence in inspiration. And you touched on it: PoE is probably going to end up being a very typical Obsidian game: That is, it's going to hit it out of the park with its story, but strike out with its combat and gameplay mechanics. And that's okay. Most of us backed PoE knowing full well who was developing it. I personally, however, was hoping for something at the level of the Baldurs Gate games, which had Great stories AND Great combat. <-----there's MY definition of true inspiration.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Stun

[Sheikh]

 

I don't see either of these as proof of some profound industry resurgence in inspiration.

 

Thats because there isnt any proof nor is there ever going to be. You cant prove inspiration.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Unfortunately PoE seems to be one of these games. At least we got WL2 and I also expect TToN to be better than PoE.

 

You think WL2 and T:ToN have more complex mechanics than PoE? T:ToN is only going to have 3 stats and will prioritize storytelling over mechanics, and WL2's character building is a no-brainer if you've ever played a turn-based RPG before.      

 

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

 

WL2 currently has better combat system. Badly made RTwP is lots worse than average turn based (what WL2 currently has).

T:ToN is hard to know how it will turn out in the end but Numenera rules system gives you lots of options, especially as you go up in tiers. And they said they plan to add more options and active skills to character building options that were mostly passive bonuses in PnP Numenera. And best thing about Numenera is that those options don't have any limits other that your attribute pool used to activate them.

Having 3 attributes or 6 means nothing, it is how you use them in the system overall. In Numenera those 3 attributes are part of the whole system and as such play a much bigger role than in PoE.

[Stun]

Lets start from the beginning:

PoE is the beginning of the reintroduction of this inspiration.

How exactly are you coming to this conclusion?

[Sheikh]

Lets start from the beginning:

PoE is the beginning of the reintroduction of this inspiration.

How exactly are you coming to this conclusion?

 

 By using my mind.

[Stun]

I agree. It's all in your head.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

 

 

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Unfortunately PoE seems to be one of these games. At least we got WL2 and I also expect TToN to be better than PoE.

 

You think WL2 and T:ToN have more complex mechanics than PoE? T:ToN is only going to have 3 stats and will prioritize storytelling over mechanics, and WL2's character building is a no-brainer if you've ever played a turn-based RPG before.      

 

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

 

WL2 currently has better combat system. Badly made RTwP is lots worse than average turn based (what WL2 currently has).

T:ToN is hard to know how it will turn out in the end but Numenera rules system gives you lots of options, especially as you go up in tiers. And they said they plan to add more options and active skills to character building options that were mostly passive bonuses in PnP Numenera. And best thing about Numenera is that those options don't have any limits other that your attribute pool used to activate them.

Having 3 attributes or 6 means nothing, it is how you use them in the system overall. In Numenera those 3 attributes are part of the whole system and as such play a much bigger role than in PoE.

 

You're moving the goalposts now. The discussion was about complexity of character building. If you're championing WL2 in that regard, I'm gonna assume you've never played many RPG's before (if any), considering the game lacks things like traits, perks, aimed shots and a lot of the stats are useless and none of the stats have any effect on skills. 

 

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

 

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Unfortunately PoE seems to be one of these games. At least we got WL2 and I also expect TToN to be better than PoE.

 

You think WL2 and T:ToN have more complex mechanics than PoE? T:ToN is only going to have 3 stats and will prioritize storytelling over mechanics, and WL2's character building is a no-brainer if you've ever played a turn-based RPG before.      

 

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

 

WL2 currently has better combat system. Badly made RTwP is lots worse than average turn based (what WL2 currently has).

T:ToN is hard to know how it will turn out in the end but Numenera rules system gives you lots of options, especially as you go up in tiers. And they said they plan to add more options and active skills to character building options that were mostly passive bonuses in PnP Numenera. And best thing about Numenera is that those options don't have any limits other that your attribute pool used to activate them.

Having 3 attributes or 6 means nothing, it is how you use them in the system overall. In Numenera those 3 attributes are part of the whole system and as such play a much bigger role than in PoE.

 

You're moving the goalposts now. The discussion was about complexity of character building. If you're championing WL2 in that regard, I'm gonna assume you've never played many RPG's before (if any), considering the game lacks things like traits, perks, aimed shots and a lot of the stats are useless and none of the stats have any effect on skills.

 

No I wasn't. I was commenting forgottenlor post that talked about mechanics of the game in general and that means more than character building options. You are just taking things out of context in a way that you like.

And my first RPG was BG1 and Fallout 1. After that I at least tried any rpg of note.

 

But if you just want to talk about character building options, WL2 is weaker than I would have liked. But since it is not a single protagonist story, and as a group you have more overall options than Fallout 1/2. More similar to IE games in that regard but much less options (in IE games each party member by itself didn't have complex character building options but as a group you had hundred different options).

Edited November 3, 2014 by archangel979

[dorkboy]

Isn't it kind of a given that the more options that are added, the less balanced they are going to be? 

 

Saying more options should be added and that they should all be more relevant seems to me like a bit of a catch 22, or at least not particularily realistic.