What PoE really is and why it is the future

[Sheikh]

There is a point out there that video games from the past were better. It is true in the sense that developers from the past were far more motivated to put effort and heart into their creation. On the other hand creators of games from the distant past were not able to express their genius as well because of technical limitations. In the present day the technical limitations have been overcome to a huge degree, but the inspiration has been lost in the meanwhile.

 

PoE is the beginning of the reintroduction of this inspiration. However poe is not as much a messiah of the new age of gaming, bur rather a messiah of the retracing that happens before it. Retracing is basically going back to where we (the developers actually, I am not one, but we are all one) went wrong and lost the inspiration. PoE is at least trying to bring this inspiration back.

 

I am glad I can say this without ever having played the game because whether it will be a huge disappointment or a great success is besides the point. Its fundamentally trying and theres some color to it.

[constantine]

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

[ManifestedISO]

Everyone at Naughty Dog would like to take this opportunity to thank you very little for dismissing their hard work and inspiration.  

[Sheikh]

Everyone at Naughty Dog would like to take this opportunity to thank you very little for dismissing their hard work and inspiration.  

Naughty dog is not involved with Pillars and I am not dismissing their work - I have not even considered or heard of it. Which means I have never ever even had the oppurtunity to dismiss it.

[rustypup]

 

Everyone at Naughty Dog would like to take this opportunity to thank you very little for dismissing their hard work and inspiration.  

Naughty dog is not involved with Pillars and I am not dismissing their work 

 

 

Uncharted series of gunk and Last of Us, the definitive over-hyped pile of blegh for the discerning mouth-breather. 

 

So, I can definitely see ManifestedISO's point.... they'd like to thank you for not hammering them for being completely unrelated to your OP. I think. 

 

Personally, while the market is severely sharded and saturated with generic crud, we are also seeing a revival in the creative base which wouldn't exist without crowd-funding, so I am feeling a lot more positive about the future of gaming.

 

For a while there it looked like we'd drown in a morass of Call of Yet Another Halo Craft... 

[forgottenlor]

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

[archangel979]

 

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Unfortunately PoE seems to be one of these games. At least we got WL2 and I also expect TToN to be better than PoE. 

[Lephys]

I would agree that, on paper, a lot of games for a while now have been... not necessarily crap, but just, uninspired? Overly simplistic?

 

The market's pretty saturated with what has now become "generic," and the only envelope they're trying to push, it would seem, is technical fidelity. They'll gladly put out a game with a simpler combat system than some old NES game, as long as those three attacks you get are GLORIOUSLY executed with post-processing effects and an engine so new it doesn't even have oil in it.

 

It's an exaggeration to say that all games now care about is graphics, etc. BUT, I will say that they care way too much about graphics. Their care for graphics isn't the problem. It's the neglect of the core of the game.

 

Whatever shortcomings PoE might ultimately have, I do think it's at least a lot more focused on the core of the game than on the sheer aesthetic quality of the gameplay experience. Production quality, if you will. So, yeah, it's nice to see a game start with the ruleset and work its way out, for a change. Instead of saying "No, simplify it down so that we can render it in tear-inducing detail. We don't have time to render 100 spells. Let's do 7, and they'll all be uninteresting and redundant. But PRETTY!"

Edited October 28, 2014 by Lephys

[poetic obsidian]

I must agree with the OP and a few others in this thread that even if PoE turns out to be a bad game, the one thing it is bringing back is inspiratiion. Back in the olden days, games were made by basically computer geeks for other computer geeks. One thing geeks have is passion for their subject, and that passion is the element that is most missing in the formulaic, pop-out-one-sequel-after-another, dlc-nickel-and-diming AAA paradigm that we live in today.

 

So kudos to Obsidian and the other old school RPG kickstarter devs for showing that there are still devs who are inspired and passionate about games.

Edited October 29, 2014 by poetic obsidian

[Sedrefilos]

Good games exist today too; bad games existed back then too. PoE, though, is the future (I believe) in ROLEPLAY in games. It pushes the genre forward in this section. The "better games in the past" is grognard nostalgia and nothing more (much like old rockers say there is no good music after the 70's).

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sedrefilos

[Sensuki]

Actually I don't think that's true or at least I can see the viewpoints of both of those statements

 

"There is no good music after the 70s" often refers to the fact that there has been little to no advancement in learning/discovering new things about how to play musical instruments. The people who say those kind of things are often referring to that. Kind of like how the last breakthrough invention in the biscuit making industry was in the 1940s. There has only been regression since then due to advertising/marketing and capitalism - rehash same stuff except with lower quality ingredients.

 

The statement about games is pretty true because in most genres, games have only regressed - particularly gameplay wise. Improvements have been made in graphics, user interface and production values but at the cost of actual gameplay in EVERY SINGLE GENRE.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

Modern games are not 'that' bad. Even for fans of the rpg genre, like myself, there are some worthy titles out there (in the form of action-rpgs, but that's the best one can get).

 

It is unlikely that WL2, PoE or T:ToN will be able to change the modern flow of things, however, I cannot be thankful enough that games like those are produced thanks to kickstarter.

 

Lastly, one can hope that a new D&D-licence title will emerge in the future, despite the mediocre attempts of the past, since the new edition of the pen'n'paper game is supposed to be a big success. Pray to god it will be a true rpg and not another hybrid of nowadays.

 

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Unfortunately PoE seems to be one of these games. At least we got WL2 and I also expect TToN to be better than PoE. 

 

You think WL2 and T:ToN have more complex mechanics than PoE? T:ToN is only going to have 3 stats and will prioritize storytelling over mechanics, and WL2's character building is a no-brainer if you've ever played a turn-based RPG before.      

 

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Sensuki]

The attribute design is not perfect though. Currently there are 'dump stats'. It's pretty safe to dump Dexterity below 10 IF you increase Perception and/or Might with those extra points, because they both give more DPS than Action Speed does against DT.

 

Intellect is pretty terrible on all characters except for Paladins and Chanters (it's really good on both of them).

 

What PE tries to do is admirable, but currently it does not achieve it's goals (and also fails in many other areas of system design as well ... but that's what the beta is for).

[Tuckey]

I think what Obsidian should take from this experience is that they need to prototype the key systems with the players before they've developed most of the game. Then they can tweak things to their hearts content and the players as well. They need to embrace a more iterative style of development.

[Sensuki]

Torment is opening the Alpha to their backers for UI and Mechanics feedback, I think that's a good idea. I am participating.

[sibakruom]

I agree with you. There are good modern AAA games. You just have to put up with really streamlined mechanics. Modern games try to appeal to bigger audiences and avoid allowing players to screw themselves by poor planning, as well as trying not to overwhelm them with different systems. Unfortunately for those of us who like complicated mechanics and options, this leaves a vacuum. However, if one looks carefully, one can find a lot of decent indie games, provided one is willing to put up with poor graphics and no voice acting.

 

Mechanical complexity is pretty much meaningless in itself, what matters is strategic complexity during gameplay. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that complex mechanics is just another manifestation of the bells and whistles mindset, same as pretty graphics, just for a different audience. That is, it looks nice and lovely on paper, but how does it actually behave during gameplay?

 

Ideally, games should be aiming for simple mechanics leading to complex strategies, but it's easier said than done.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

 

Not a beta tester I see.

 

Currently there are 'dump stats'.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

There is a point out there that video games from the past were better. It is true in the sense that developers from the past were far more motivated to put effort and heart into their creation. On the other hand creators of games from the distant past were not able to express their genius as well because of technical limitations. In the present day the technical limitations have been overcome to a huge degree, but the inspiration has been lost in the meanwhile.

 

PoE is the beginning of the reintroduction of this inspiration. However poe is not as much a messiah of the new age of gaming, bur rather a messiah of the retracing that happens before it. Retracing is basically going back to where we (the developers actually, I am not one, but we are all one) went wrong and lost the inspiration. PoE is at least trying to bring this inspiration back.

 

I am glad I can say this without ever having played the game because whether it will be a huge disappointment or a great success is besides the point. Its fundamentally trying and theres some color to it.

 

You also have to give credit to companies like inXile as well. They started with WL2 which is a great game and have T:ToN coming out in the future. It's great seeing companies go back to the old style games of the past. The future is looking bright.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

PoE's design is much more interesting and ambitious. No dump stats also means dropping any stat will hurt your character, no way to insta-win dialogue by simply raising dialogue skills, etc.

 

Not a beta tester I see.

Neither is the person I was replying to. And it was rather obvious I was talking about the design goals, but please do continue on with your convenient strawmen.

[Sensuki]

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that complex mechanics is just another manifestation of the bells and whistles mindset

When people say complex mechanics they do not necessarily mean pointlessly convoluted mechanics. They mean mechanics that add depth and complexity to decision making.

 

DotA has denying your own units as a feature which prevents the opposing team from getting gold and also gives them less experience. It adds depth and complexity by giving teams an extra way to control the lane and restrict the other team's economy. It also requires skill to do consistently. You can also deny your own creeps and control the lane equilibrium, which is where the lane creeps meet in the lane, you can push it closer to the enemy tower, or back to your tower simply by controlling the creep waves.

 

League of Legends removed this feature ... and thus the depth, complexity and skill that goes with it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Neither is the person I was replying to. And it was rather obvious I was talking about the design goals, but please do continue on with your convenient strawmen.

 

So you're talking about design goals and not the actual game we're playing. You do know a lot has changed from the design goals when the KS went live and what we have now.  Oh and no strawmen here.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

Neither is the person I was replying to. And it was rather obvious I was talking about the design goals, but please do continue on with your convenient strawmen.

 

So you're talking about design goals and not the actual game we're playing. You do know a lot has changed from the design goals when the KS went live and what we have now.  Oh and no strawmen here.

 

From what I understand, many of the current issues are of a technical nature (overly flashy VFX and such) that have little to do with the design goals. I don't see any indication that the design goals of no dump stats has changed. I thought the discussion was about whether the execution lived up those design goals?

[Sensuki]

Hiro is not talking about those though. Obsidian have made changes to systems and mechanics based on player feedback and hopefully they make more because combat is severely fkd up at the moment. Attributes still fail to meet the design goals and the skill system is barfed too.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[sibakruom]

When people say complex mechanics they do not necessarily mean pointlessly convoluted mechanics. They mean mechanics that add depth and complexity to decision making.

 

DotA has denying your own units as a feature which prevents the opposing team from getting gold and also gives them less experience. It adds depth and complexity by giving teams an extra way to control the lane and restrict the other team's economy. It also requires skill to do consistently. You can also deny your own creeps and control the lane equilibrium, which is where the lane creeps meet in the lane, you can push it closer to the enemy tower, or back to your tower simply by controlling the creep waves.

 

League of Legends removed this feature ... and thus the depth, complexity and skill that goes with it.

 

As someone who knows very little about MOBA (your example is all Greek to me), I can't say if it applies in this case, but the removal of a feature does not necessarily lessen the complexity of a game, and can in fact increase it.

 

Let's consider a game where a given situation shows up relatively frequently, and in this situation we're offered 4 options - A, B, C and D - each with a different outcome. The outcome for options A, B and C are roughly equivalent in how good/bad they are to take, and their respective worth can only be measured on a case-by-case basis, depending on other external factors. However, the outcome for option D is clearly superior to the previous ones, barring rare corner cases. In this case, removing option D would change the skill involved from "identifying situation -> picking option D" to "identifying situation -> analysing external factors -> picking suitable option", which would indeed make it more strategically complex.

 

So if a given feature is responsible for lots of options D in several different situations while not bringing enough to the game otherwise, cutting it might be a good decision.

[Sensuki]

I have played both games. The whole point of League of Legends is to make it simpler and focus on player vs player fighting. In DotA 2 there are many ways to win - 5 man deathball, various ways to get an economic advantage including the method I described before, split pushing, farming. In many instances it is better not to fight in DotA 2.

 

DotA 2 is far and away more complex game and requires more skill, but it can sometimes be less 'exciting'. Some people however require more instant gratification than DotA 2 provides, and thus prefer League of Legends.