333 Quick Impressions Thread

[Sensuki]

This game is isometric. All viewing angles are the same.

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That screenshot was captured at the moment of impact, where the effects are the most intense.

 

No, the VFX is actually more intense after the spell has hit, there is a lingering flame that is both higher and more intense than the original impact.

 

 

 

Within my screenshot, you can see characters, but not terrain. Within yours, both are visible. I'm not sure what your images are demonstrating as being more obstructive. I also reiterate that the effects last for a second--in the most literal sense. I don't find it to be a problem at all. Perhaps you were going to reorganize your strategy and reassign your entire party's actions in that one second, but it all hinged on being able to scrutinize a single static blade grass......I guess I'm just not that hardcore.

 

In the third image in my screenshot, the character behind the effect has their selection circle completely obscured. That is bad VFX design for this style of game. It looks great, but it's not practical. There are many times where I have literally had to wait until lingering VFX effects subsided until I have been able to issue an attack command / cast a spell into the fray because I cannot tell which units are mine or not because their selection circles are obscured and the lights and FX make it difficult to tell humanoid enemies apart.

 

There are so many spells where this is a problem with just that spell on the screen, but multiple spells on the screen at the same time are just o_O_o_O 

[YunikoYokai5]

My personal opinion of the VFX is that they are...everywhere. I've spent more time looking for my characters than actually fighting in some cases!

[Seari]

Looks like it's NwN2 all over again. Hopefully mods will fix it, but it's a shame that they don't learn from past **** ups.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Seari

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Has anyone taken the health healing talents? I always take it for my BB Fighter and BB Rogue. Seems to be a must have for tanks or melee characters. Not so much for ranged characters as my back line rarely gets hit. And because I'm taking it for my front line, I'm finding I'm now picking up the +4 Mechanics and other talents for characters like my Druid who is now my master locksmith. Quite the role reversal. I'd prefer the health healing talents to be able to heal others as well as yourself.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Seari]

Just remove endurance if there's a way to heal health, what's the point FFS.

[PrimeHydra]

Just remove endurance if there's a way to heal health, what's the point FFS.

I kind of find myself agreeing with this. Why do we need endurance? When I see my character's portrait filling up with red, I think health. The little green bar next to it seems more appropriate for a secondary fatigue system.

 

Even the fatigue system--characters getting "tired", like the sleepy eye status in Baldur's Gate--is separate from endurance, if I understand correctly. It just doesn't make sense that enemies whacking you reduces your endurance. If endurance exists, it should simply be a more granular implementation of said fatigue system. Over time, your endurance/fatigue bar depletes, when it's gone you get the "exhausted" icon and associated penalty.

Edited October 29, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Karkarov]

 

Just remove endurance if there's a way to heal health, what's the point FFS.

I kind of find myself agreeing with this. Why do we need endurance? When I see my character's portrait filling up with red, I think health. The little green bar next to it seems more appropriate for a secondary fatigue system.

 

Even the fatigue system--characters getting "tired", like the sleepy eye status in Baldur's Gate--is separate from endurance, if I understand correctly. It just doesn't make sense that enemies whacking you reduces your endurance. If endurance exists, it should simply be a more granular implementation of said fatigue system. Over time, your endurance/fatigue bar depletes, when it's gone you get the "exhausted" icon and associated penalty.

You don't abandon ship because there is a tiny hole in the hull.  We just need to rename endurance to be something more applicable, which I believe Sawyer said somewhere they were already looking at doing that.

[Seari]

What? They already renamed stamina to endurance...

[Mr. Magniloquent]

@Sensuki

 

Without performing and trigonometry, those two screenshots show perhaps...10 degrees of difference in viewing angle? That's being generous. The viewing angle of incidence is not relevant towards whether characters are obstructed by spell effects anyway. That has to do with where the effect is applied relative to the character, not the background.

 

There are also more ways to identify a character's location than their selection circle. The enemy's health and action indicator bar above them not only identifies their friend/foe status, but their location. The same applies to player characters. In every single screen shot you've provided, I can see character location in explicit, relative, and implied terms. That these effects last for a second makes any obstruction less of a concern.

 

The game mechanics do not even particularly permit <1 second precision. You would have to concoct a very contrived scenario to where such a lapse would differentiate success and failure. Even in your screenshots, which you lead to believe are obfuscating, every single enemy's position and heading (if any) are visible and discernible. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. I do not understand the hyperbole on this matter.

 

These spell effects are lovely. They succinctly convey wonder and provide a glimpse of the fantastic into an attractive but otherwise mundane and static backdrop. Presentation and aesthetic matter more than in merely displaying status. PoE can and should afford less than a moment to dazzle. I do not find the exclamation that they will foil tactics to be credible for the reasons above and more. This is an issue where we shall likely agree to disagree over.

[Karkarov]

What? They already renamed stamina to endurance...

Still a bad name, it needs to be health and they need to call "health" wounds, and the "wounds" need to be called injuries.

[Sensuki]

@Sensuki

 

Without performing and trigonometry, those two screenshots show perhaps...10 degrees of difference in viewing angle? That's being generous. The viewing angle of incidence is not relevant towards whether characters are obstructed by spell effects anyway. That has to do with where the effect is applied relative to the character, not the background.

The high angle is isometric, the lower angle is too low to be called isometric. I think it's more like 15 degrees lower.

 

There are also more ways to identify a character's location than their selection circle. The enemy's health and action indicator bar above them not only identifies their friend/foe status, but their location. The same applies to player characters. In every single screen shot you've provided, I can see character location in explicit, relative, and implied terms. That these effects last for a second makes any obstruction less of a concern.

 

You're forgetting that Combat HUDs can be disabled. Many people keep forgetting this. The designers must design the game to accomodate the disabling of combat helper features. When you are trying to target a spell while the Fireball after effect is going off and there are multiple characters together with their selection circles obscured, it is difficult to accurately know which character is which sometimes if you cannot see their selection circle and thus you have to wait until it is visible to be able to cast your spell correctly.

 

SELECTION CIRCLES WERE NEVER OBSCURED IN THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES.

 

I do not understand the hyperbole on this matter.

See above, no self-respecting RTS style game obscures units and selection circles like that. I have NEVER had trouble determining which unit is which and belongs to who, and have never had to wait until Spell FX exprire just to make a command. In this game I do and that is totally unacceptable.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Guest 4ward]

great observation regarding the different angles Sensuki! So if i understand it the smaller areas have a more topdown view and the bigger outdoor areas have a more flat view. I’m just completely guessing but i wonder if it’s because of the format of the area, are indoor areas a square and outdoor areas not? What could be the reason for the different angles?

[Captain Shrek]

 

What? They already renamed stamina to endurance...

Still a bad name, it needs to be health and they need to call "health" wounds, and the "wounds" need to be called injuries.

 

Lets call Might Damage, Perception -> Accuracy, Int - > Mitigation etc. while we are at it. 

[Sensuki]

great observation regarding the different angles Sensuki! So if i understand it the smaller areas have a more topdown view and the bigger outdoor areas have a more flat view. I’m just completely guessing but i wonder if it’s because of the format of the area, are indoor areas a square and outdoor areas not? What could be the reason for the different angles?

Exterior Areas use a lower camera angle

 

Most Interiors use the higher isometric angle, but some of them use the lower angle - I've seen the screenshots in the game files.

[Guest 4ward]

thanks for the clarification/explanation, Sensuki!

[Quantics]

Re: viewing angle, I was naively wondering if it would even be noticeable if one were to to keep the current terrain artwork, and simply change the 3d character-view to a SLIGHTLY more vertical angle? 

 

You know by a couple degrees at least. I wonder if our eyes would be able to tell the difference?

 

Anyway, I'm probably overlooking many things here.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Quantics

[Sensuki]

They could re-render the areas, but I think they've painted over them already (can't be sure).

[Quantics]

Yeah I'm pretty sure re-rendering is never going to happen. 

 

Clearly all the areas have been painted over already, I can't imagine this being left out to the very end.

 

I was suggesting to slightly tilt the 3 models to a more vertical view (only slightly) and leave the background rendering as such. Wonder if it would be noticeable.

 

PS: in case some are wondering what the difficulty might be, here's a link showing the paint over process :

http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0025/PE-TempleEntrance-ProcessStack-1340.jpg

Edited October 29, 2014 by Quantics

[aeonsim]

Just remove endurance if there's a way to heal health, what's the point FFS.

 

It seems a little different, it doesn't actually heal much just enough to give your char a chance to survive a small skirmish or two if your careful.

 

It's pretty expensive spend a talent for an option to get a small amount of health back for one party member. It's not AOE, it doesn't heal a lot, it can't be spammed and it's very expensive...

 

From what I've seen it seems like a it doesn't screw the system up to much and still allows for a clear separation between endurance and health.

[remiel005]

I LOVE the ideas they are doing with class design.  However, I think they've caused further divides between classes.

 

Non-caster classes are now forced to pick between abilities they already had rather than making meaningful build choices while spell-casters have increased talents on top of all the spells they already had.  If this is to be viable, then the non-caster classes need a much larger selection of abilities to choose from and the capacity to select more on level up (the BB characters are still designed with all their abilities).

 

The talents could be sorted a little neater with some categorization.  Showing talents that are currently locked out and giving their pre-requisites would be nice so we can make intentional character build decisions.

 

/encounter vs /rest vs renewable resource classes have done nothing to come into balance.  I am left still spamming /encounter abilities in order to use them up before battle is over.

 

I love that the skill system was dissolved into talents.  Now players have to make discerning choices for a simple skill system rather than point dumping.  I think this would be a good route to go for a lot of role playing games - both video and pnp, when a highly complex system is not going to be implemented.

 

Naked hearth orlan rogues with dual stilettos still do insane damage and never seem to pull aggro while they run around the battle field backstabbing everything to death in one or two hits.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

@Sensuki

 

Without performing and trigonometry, those two screenshots show perhaps...10 degrees of difference in viewing angle? That's being generous. The viewing angle of incidence is not relevant towards whether characters are obstructed by spell effects anyway. That has to do with where the effect is applied relative to the character, not the background.

The high angle is isometric, the lower angle is too low to be called isometric. I think it's more like 15 degrees lower.

Again, that isn't very relevant. Whether a character is obscured has more to do with where the effect is applied in relation to the character, not the background.

 

There are also more ways to identify a character's location than their selection circle. The enemy's health and action indicator bar above them not only identifies their friend/foe status, but their location. The same applies to player characters. In every single screen shot you've provided, I can see character location in explicit, relative, and implied terms. That these effects last for a second makes any obstruction less of a concern.

 

You're forgetting that Combat HUDs can be disabled. Many people keep forgetting this. The designers must design the game to accomodate the disabling of combat helper features. When you are trying to target a spell while the Fireball after effect is going off and there are multiple characters together with their selection circles obscured, it is difficult to accurately know which character is which sometimes if you cannot see their selection circle and thus you have to wait until it is visible to be able to cast your spell correctly.

 

SELECTION CIRCLES WERE NEVER OBSCURED IN THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES.

 

I have not forgotten that HUDs can be disabled. They were implemented for a reason. They are deliberate. They convey meaningful information. They convey this information in the manner which the developers feel is most suited. Removing those indicators will implicitly supply the player with less information. Even still, every character in every screenshot is directly and indirectly observable. All of their locations and headings are able to be witness and determined without any effort. 

 

I do not understand the hyperbole on this matter.

See above, no self-respecting RTS style game obscures units and selection circles like that. I have NEVER had trouble determining which unit is which and belongs to who, and have never had to wait until Spell FX exprire just to make a command. In this game I do and that is totally unacceptable.

 

You're blowing this far out of proportion. Every character is visible. If a person cannot deduce a character's feet relative to their head, then this game shall present much greater hurdles than a ~1 second potential partial obstruction. They may even have to endure the horror of potentially waiting less than 1 second for the effect to dissipate. This certainly isn't one to justify removal of an attractive and lovely aesthetic in a visually muted and static game. Being that the game mechanics do not permit less than 1 second reaction outside of instantaneous modal activation (which can be done while paused anyhow), it's a non-issue. What little that spell may obstruct can be directly or indirectly determined otherwise, and it occurs within a time-frame that is negligible due to game mechanics.

[Sensuki]

Again, that isn't very relevant. Whether a character is obscured has more to do with where the effect is applied in relation to the character, not the background.

It's not the background it's the camera. Because the lower angled camera is 15 degrees lower, units that are 'behind' other units are less visible. I have seen a Dragon in this game because Bester modded one from the game files in, and in the outside camera angle, you can't see your characters if they are behind the dragon because it completely obscures them from view. Forest Lurkers obscure units from view, and so do 'tall' spell FX like the aftermath of the Fireball explosion.

 

 

You're blowing this far out of proportion. Every character is visible. If a person cannot deduce a character's feet relative to their head, then this game shall present much greater hurdles than a ~1 second potential partial obstruction. They may even have to endure the horror of potentially waiting less than 1 second for the effect to dissipate. This certainly isn't one to justify removal of an attractive and lovely aesthetic in a visually muted and static game. Being that the game mechanics do not permit less than 1 second reaction outside of instantaneous modal activation (which can be done while paused anyhow), it's a non-issue.

Actually yes it is, but I did not say remove the effect, simply to tone it down. You obviously like over the top spell FX and are more concerned that they look fantastic than their practicality - okay, but I vehemently disagree with you and I will not shut up about this issue until it is remedied. You can count on that.

 

I have not forgotten that HUDs can be disabled. They were implemented for a reason. They are deliberate. They convey meaningful information. They convey this information in the manner which the developers feel is most suited. Removing those indicators will implicitly supply the player with less information. Even still, every character in every screenshot is directly and indirectly observable. All of their locations and headings are able to be witness and determined without any effort.

They do display less information, however spells should not be designed around the fact that "as long as Combat HUDs are visible, things are fine. That is bad design. I know of no other isometric game that has crap like this, other than Planescape Torment.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Elerond]

 

What? They already renamed stamina to endurance...

Still a bad name, it needs to be health and they need to call "health" wounds, and the "wounds" need to be called injuries.

 

 

I disagree, because I think endurance describes better what that pool represent in the game, character's ability to endure short time pain and suffering.  Where health as term describes something more long lasting than that. Although I think that injuries could be better term than wounds for those before rest minuses, but I feel that difference is so small that it matter very little to me.