DA:I Tactical View combat feedback > IE spiritual successor PoE combat feedback. Can't have that!

[Sensuki]

I'm not exactly sure how long it takes to create a separate animation for recovery time, but my guess is "a long time" because it would have to be done for most creatures to be anything like the Baldur's Gate games. That is actual animation content creation, that probably should have been done during production - it's not a 'polish feature'.

 

I think it's important because disabling HUD features is pretty pointless now, and it's supposed to be a supported option. 

It's not like Josh's work also entails User Interface stuff, they have different team members for different things - and these things can all be worked on concurrently. It's not like they all take a break to work on the experience curve or attributes - that's something that's up to Josh + Internal Testing.

 

Meanwhile Obsidian also has a Character Artist, UI Artist, A few programmers - Adam does the engine stuff, Steve Weatherly is working on Pathfinding, Dave is working on AI, Roby and Brian are doing User Interface, Tim does Josh's class & ability stuff, Dan Spitzley is doing engine optimization atm.

All of these areas can be worked on at the same time, that's why I think it's important to mention various different types of critiques, rather than just take the mindset that "that stuff is just polish, it can be left until the last minute".

 

I do agree that many of the core issues with Pillars of Eternity do actually lie in the design of the game itself. Josh has already laid out what he's working on at the moment - mostly character advancement stuff. 

I agree that Attribute design did take a wrong turn, I think particularly due to the "10 is 0" system, and it needs another pass or two before release.

 

edit: other than the Main HUD, what UI things do we disagree on Karkarov ?

Edited October 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Karakrov: Parts of DA:O and all of DA2 made me extremely sceptical, and I'm one of those people that refused to install EA Origin, but after having watched plenty of vids this autumn, Bioware won me over, especially Laidlaw, so I decided to pre-order it. And no worries - I will use m/kb - and they have actually tailor-made the UI for the pc, complete with a nice action bar, and wheels like ToEE (so I fear, Sensuki would hate that), but I'm really excited about that aspect of the UI.

 

EDIT: And no awful console Skyrim inventory UI on the pc is in sight either.

Edited October 21, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

A contextual wheel is fine in a turn-based environment, particularly when there is a limited subset of actions to choose from.

 

The Banner Saga's UI for that stuff is pretty good, nice and sensible, pretty easy to use and understand and context-sensitive. 

However ToEE and NWN1's were out of control.

[HoonDing]

Let's avoid putting up DA:I against P:E. It's no contest.

 

[PrimeHydra]

et's avoid putting up DA:I against P:E. It's no contest.

 

 

Aww Dragon Age is so cooote!

Edited October 21, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Karkarov]

edit: other than the Main HUD, what UI things do we disagree on Karkarov ?

Other than the main HUD ;p?  Just niggling things.  I don't care about stat details on the inventory page.  I would be happy with damage numbers there, but final numbers, not the math leading to them.  Let the gross detail be on the stats page as that is what it is for.  Or in a side comparison window ala most MMO's and action games these days.  They all do it for a reason, it works.

 

Meanwhile I still need to play Banner Saga.

 

Also Indira... contrary to popular belief, Origin is actually fine.  It is fairly simple, easy to use, and unless you have an old system not particularly demanding.  It does everything Steam does, just not as intrusively.

 

EDIT!!!  Oh also animations... actually no it isn't that big a deal.  You can create an animation, tie it to the rigging, save it, and then simply add that animation to every model that has a similar rigging structure.  So basically you make the animation for generic human, perfect it, then export it to all humanoid races.  Then you go into say dwarves or orlan, and just make adjustments as needed.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Karkarov

[Guest 4ward]

i like that there’s a combat log in PoE, something DA3 hasn’t. Rather DA3 has all sorts of flashing animations around the portraits to provide info. In PoE the view is zoomed out, for DA3 i remember reading several months ago a writer previewing it remark that he couldn’t zoom out the DA3 cam like he could in DAO. You will be able to detach the cam and move it freely to some degree in DA3 but i still prefer to be able to see everything at the same time with the isometric cam of PoE without the need to move the cam. We have just one view in PoE and it has to work for combat and exploration. While a more topdown view would have been better for combat i think PoE just needs what has already been remarked here to give the chars more contrast and distinguish them. So all in all i’d say a combat log and character animations provide at least the same info that DA3 offers.

[war:head]

I urge OE to take a look at those gameplay videos and then vow to surpass that feedback info, since I believe that PoE simply must outdo DA:I in this kind of party-based combat feedback. We can't have DA:I combat feedback > PoE combat feedback. Surely, for OE, the ambition must be to make PoE into a game that owns party-based combat feedback and kills other games in that department. 

 

I agree that they should take a good look and try to match BioWare in that regard but I feel that this won't be feasible. Even with all the recent mistakes, BioWare still has an amazing (game) design team and a ton more money and thus man power than Obsidian. They've probably spent more time on designing and implementing the UI than Obsidian has spent on the entire combat system. 

 

 

I haven't (nor do I intend to) watch any DA:I videos, because I am boycotting all BioWare games after Mass Effect 3

 

Mass Effect 3 was an amazing game with a ****ty ending, I feel like boycotting an entire company because of this is a little extreme. But to each their own I guess.

[Sensuki]

Mass Effect 3 was an amazing game with a ****ty ending, I feel like boycotting an entire company because of this is a little extreme. But to each their own I guess.

It wasn't an amazing game, it had high production values and lots of voice acting - that's about it really. I did enjoy the first two games and ME2 was probably the best 'cinematic RPG', but there was a lot of design decisions I really didn't like and the only reason I played it is because I wanted to see if any of the decisions you made over the course of the game meant anything, turns out they didn't. Not a single thing. That was the promise of the series, and they blew it. Since I'd already given up on the rest of their product lines (such as the DA and Star Wars lines), I see no further reason to buy their products - I am not part of their target audience, I do not give a damn about their girly romances.

[war:head]

 

Mass Effect 3 was an amazing game with a ****ty ending, I feel like boycotting an entire company because of this is a little extreme. But to each their own I guess.

It wasn't an amazing game, it had high production values and lots of voice acting - that's about it really.

 

And pretty much the best game mechanics of any third-person shooter in existence, especially in multiplayer thanks to all the (free) DLC. If TPS aren't your cup of tea, that's perfectly fine but that's no fault of the game.

 

 

 

Mass Effect 3 was an amazing game with a ****ty ending, I feel like boycotting an entire company because of this is a little extreme. But to each their own I guess.

there was a lot of design decisions I really didn't like and the only reason I played it is because I wanted to see if any of the decisions you made over the course of the game meant anything, turns out they didn't. Not a single thing. That was the promise of the series, and they blew it. Since I'd already given up on the rest of their product lines (such as the DA and Star Wars lines), I see no further reason to buy their products - I am not part of their target audience, I do not give a damn about their girly romances.

 

That's not what boycotting means, though, and as such sounds way more reasonable than your first statement. You just don't like their games - fair enough. I do feel that you'd be missing out if you don't even give them a chance to impress (companies evolve over time) but there's probably enough games out there to keep you busy for a couple lifetimes even without them. 

[archangel979]

I agree with Sensuki. I wanted to play an RPG and I got a badly done shooter with way too much boring combat. Only thing good was production values and decent full voice overs with your companions. But gameplay itself was so bad, and I play games for gameplay first. 

This was a problem with Fallout 3 and FNV, trying to be more FPS but not enough and ending up a bad FPS and a bad RPG. I would rather they go full Counter Strike or Crysis and just add some rpg elements and conversations. Actually later Crysis almost had as much character customization as ME2 and ME3 had, it just lacked a bigger story, companions and RPG story and more freedom. If you are actually going to do a shooter RPG, make sure the shooter part is as good as it can be.

[Sensuki]

And pretty much the best game mechanics of any third-person shooter in existence, especially in multiplayer thanks to all the (free) DLC. If TPS aren't your cup of tea, that's perfectly fine but that's no fault of the game.

You're kidding right? It's a popamole shooter that takes no skill. Older games such as Max Payne 2 eclipse it by infinite amounts. So do the Jedi Knight series (in Lightsaber mode), Rune, Bloodrayne ... etc

 

Mass Effect 1 had the best 3rd person shooting mechanics of the ME series. They went down the drain with ME:2 though, but I didn't really care too much because I wasn't playing the games for the (boring) combat.

 

All of the ME games also have really bad mouse lag / mouse smoothing on as well, have to apply a few tweaks just to get the mouse to respond properly.

 

I am boycotting them though. I am not buying another BioWare or Blizzard game, both of them will never again make a title I will enjoy.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

I am boycotting them though. I am not buying another BioWare or Blizzard game, both of them will never again make a title I will enjoy.

Although in my mind I agree with you, I love Starcraft universe and characters so much so I still play and buy Starcraft 2 content. 

I even took Star Wars Saga Edition PnP rules and converted them so I can play Starcraft PnP :D

Edited October 22, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

I bought Starcraft 2:WoD but it's not as good as Brood War, and they ruined it with the first expansion, most of the pro players in the scene around that time quit the game.

[archangel979]

I care more about single player then MP as I find 1v1 games too stressful and XvX in Starcraft is not balanced.

[war:head]

 

And pretty much the best game mechanics of any third-person shooter in existence, especially in multiplayer thanks to all the (free) DLC. If TPS aren't your cup of tea, that's perfectly fine but that's no fault of the game.

You're kidding right? It's a popamole shooter that takes no skill. Older games such as Max Payne 2 eclipse it by infinite amounts. So do the Jedi Knight series (in Lightsaber mode), Rune, Bloodrayne ... etc

 

Post a successful solo gold run to extraction and we can start talking about skill.

 

Also, I played both the Jedi Knight series as well as Max Payne - neither of them come close the possibilities you have in ME3 with a single character. Put four of them together in an MP match and the possibilities are endless. 

 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying either of these are bad - I had a ton of fun playing them - but comparing them to a game with about 50 different playable characters + tons of weapons, ammo, mods, equipment etc.? Yeah, not really.

[Sensuki]

You're comparing a character system against games with no character system (technically). The reason JK2, Rune, the JK games and Max Payne 2 are better is because they used better engines, had way better movement and required skill to win. Max Payne 2 and Bloodrayne are different stories considering they are SP games, but the feel of those games is way better than ME3.

 

All you do in ME3 is this: Run behind obstacle, such as a wall and go into the auto-crouch mode, lean out and fire off a few shots, lean back in, wait for your shields/health to regen - rinse and repeat. That is abysmal gameplay. At least ME1 encouraged a bit more freeform movement, and you could actually do some pretty cool stuff like Call of Duty style unscopes with the Sniper Rifle, although they fully consolized the inputs/movement with ME:2 *thumbsdown*

[war:head]

All you do in ME3 is this: Run behind obstacle, such as a wall and go into the auto-crouch mode, lean out and fire off a few shots, lean back in, wait for your shields/health to regen - rinse and repeat. That is abysmal gameplay.

 

I'm sorry but that statement is nonsense on so many levels it makes me wonder if you've even actually played ME3. I mean sure, if you chose to ignore 90% of what the game offers in terms of mechanics, you could technically finish the game like that (on easy to medium difficulty I guess) but it's hardly the fault of the game if you deliberately chose the most boring play style possible. 

 

That's pretty much like saying PoE is abysmal because all you can do is hit enemies with a sword.

 

(Not to mention the fact that you probably wouldn't be able to finish a single MP match like that on a reasonable difficulty but here we go into the skill territory again which you already chose to ignore the first time around...)

 

edit: To make sure we're one the same level here (a disclaimer if you will) - I'm not saying ME3 was perfect, far from it. It was a piece-of-crap port, it had technical issues and some of the writing was questionable (not talking about the ending here - that deserves a special hell all for itself). But it also had great gameplay, some of the best story scenes in gaming history and an amazing art design.

Edited October 22, 2014 by war:head

[Tanred]

 

For example:

-Clear symbols by char portrait is shown for the present action taken by that character (like in BG:EE)

-When you hover over an enemy, you get info about it (even about potential weaknesses and strengths - I don't know if this Is Lore-based or something. If not that's the kind of stuff I'd like Lore to be about), and also, you see which character is targeting it

 

 

Spot on.

[Sensuki]

I'm sorry but that statement is nonsense on so many levels it makes me wonder if you've even actually played ME3. I mean sure, if you chose to ignore 90% of what the game offers in terms of mechanics, you could technically finish the game like that (on easy to medium difficulty I guess) but it's hardly the fault of the game if you deliberately chose the most boring play style possible. 

 

(Not to mention the fact that you probably wouldn't be able to finish a single MP match like that on a reasonable difficulty but here we go into the skill territory again which you already chose to ignore the first time around...)[/size]

I have not played Multiplayer ME3, why would I want to do that? Played the game twice, once when it came out and I think I played it again last year to try out one of the mods that kind of fixes the ending.

 

 

 

But it also had great gameplay

 

It does not have great gameplay. It is terrible gameplay for a shooter. The game has no Z-axis, and it uses the Unreal 3 engine which has huge issues with input lag by design due to bad coding (there's some quotes in this thread, where one of the ESReality users tested the engines with a 1000 FPS camera: http://www.esreality.com/post/2640619/input-lag-tests-ql-csgo-q3a/) and most of the movement is 'snap-to' designed for consoles.

 

For the record, I played competitive Call of Duty (1, 2, 4 and Black Ops) on the PC for 10 years and was in the best Australian team in 2010, my teams came 1st or 2nd in every tournament we played in for 2 years straight (http://au.cybergamer.com/profile/529/Sensuki/extended/). I did enjoy slower paced shooters such as Rogue Spear, Ghost Recon, The Sum of All Fears and Swat 4 - but that would have been the last tactical shooter (other than Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, which was a 3PS) that was any good.

 

You might enjoy ME3's gameplay, but saying that it's the best 3PS is a very controversial statement.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[war:head]

You might enjoy ME3's gameplay, but saying that it's the best 3PS is a very controversial statement.

 

I didn't say it is the best 3PS, I said it has the best game mechanics of any 3PS.

 

I'll make it easy for you - name a 3PS where you have as many (vastly different) abilities to chose from as in ME3. Hint: When you start reaching the 80 mark, you're getting close. And if you can manage that, we can start talking about character stats, unique enemy types, weapons, weapon mods 1, weapon mods 2, ammo types, armor mods, gear, combos, sync kills...you get the idea.

 

And of course you don't have to like all this stuff but it is there and it objectively makes ME3 one of the most versatile 3P combat games around. 

[archangel979]

 

You might enjoy ME3's gameplay, but saying that it's the best 3PS is a very controversial statement.

 

I didn't say it is the best 3PS, I said it has the best game mechanics of any 3PS.

 

I'll make it easy for you - name a 3PS where you have as many (vastly different) abilities to chose from as in ME3. Hint: When you start reaching the 80 mark, you're getting close. And if you can manage that, we can start talking about character stats, unique enemy types, weapons, weapon mods 1, weapon mods 2, ammo types, armor mods, gear, combos, sync kills...you get the idea.

 

And of course you don't have to like all this stuff but it is there and it objectively makes ME3 one of the most versatile 3P combat games around. 

 

The thing is, it is not even a shooter. Because the game basically does everything for you. You lock targets and fire something that goes into direction of enemy. That is not a shooter, that some something else. And cover system is standard of games like Assassin Creed, not real shooters. 

 

ME2 and ME3 plays more like real time Xcom (new one) then any shooter. Or that Xcom "shooter" that got terrible reviews by having almost same system like Mass Effect.

Edited October 22, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

I didn't say it is the best 3PS, I said it has the best game mechanics of any 3PS.

 

I'll make it easy for you - name a 3PS where you have as many (vastly different) abilities to chose from as in ME3. Hint: When you start reaching the 80 mark, you're getting close. And if you can manage that, we can start talking about character stats, unique enemy types, weapons, weapon mods 1, weapon mods 2, ammo types, armor mods, gear, combos, sync kills...you get the idea.

 

And of course you don't have to like all this stuff but it is there and it objectively makes ME3 one of the most versatile 3P combat games around.

Like I said previously, who gives a crap about character advancement when the core mechanics are bad ?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeHydra]

Just dropping in to say Dragon Age: Origins was a good game and did feedback well.

 

*Escapes using jetpack*

[Sensuki]

If you enjoy banal combat systems with banal encounters, sure.

 

 

The best thing about the game was the choice and consequence, it did very well in that department. Even if I didn't really like the setting, writing or characters that much, the C&C was very good. 

 

I couldn't play it twice though, the combat just isn't fun.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sensuki