Happiest Countries in the World proves Western Ideology Works

[BruceVC]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/travel/happiest-countries-to-visit/index.html

 

We have touched on this topic before and I have personally made the point that "Western culture is the superior culture to others " and this was criticised by some as hubris, inaccurate  and being "out of touch with reality "

 

But I think its a good time to revisit this discussion. When I say " Western ideology " is superior the fact is  that this list confirms this as the top ten countries  are all Western countries and they have the happiest citizens in the world

 

I'm not saying that Western countries have necessarily the cleverest people or that there aren't faults. The point is  that Western Democracies work. Despite there faults they give there citizens the best quality of life end of the day. So what's wrong with saying " Western ideology " offers the best system of government for its citizens and therefore are the best example of how countries should be run?

 

If you disagree with the my point that Western countries have the happiest citizens, and therefore the best governments, then please produce your own list so we can discuss it

 

I see the Scandinavian countries are again in the top 10 list, so once again the important consideration  of there socialist hybrid model really seems to work. High employment rate, high taxes but very effective government institutions. Isn't this model something we all should be aspiring to?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Darth InSidious]

There is no such thing as "Western ideology", and your notion that "democracies work" is (i) implicitly tautological and (ii) dubious.

[Cursed_Beaver]

There is no such thing as "Western ideology", and your notion that "democracies work" is (i) implicitly tautological and (ii) dubious.

 

Citation needed.

[BruceVC]

There is no such thing as "Western ideology", and your notion that "democracies work" is (i) implicitly tautological and (ii) dubious.

You dismiss my point but you don't care to say why? How do you suggest that we measure what systems of governments in the world  are the most effective and therefore need to be emulated? Lets not argue semantics, I gave you a list. Surly if the citizens of those countries are the happiest citizens in the world then the corollary of that must be that there governments are going a good job?  And yes there is such a thing a Western ideology and it revolves around the principle of Democratic governments

 

People seem to get uncomfortable when someone says " Western culture is the best in the world "...but what exactly is incorrect with this? If the measurement we use is the happiness of there citizens then the facts are irrefutable?

[Shallow]

Believing you're the happiest person in the universe != Being the happiest person in the universe

 

There is no way to measure happyness as what's 10 on a persons scale might be a 5 or a 2 on some other persons scale, this isn't measuring how happy someone is compared to someone else as much as it is measuring how happy someone thinks he is compared to someone else. This whole thing is bs, I'm not saying anything about western ideologies here, but the idea of measuring whether an ideology works by using an arrogance test is silly.

 

 

How happy your citizens are, even if it could be properly measured, isn't the only thing that needs to be taken into account when considering how an ideology is working out for a state. Making the people feel in control is one of the primary advantages of democracies, and that should boost "happyness", but on the other hand, democracies are completely incapable of going through hard but necesarry hardship, which is one of the things the more tyranical ideologies excel at. Sure Chinese people would probably be happier with democracy, but China would decend into even greater overpopulation if not for unpopular and tyranical one child policies.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Shallow

[BruceVC]

Believing you're the happiest person in the universe != Being the happiest person in the universe

 

There is no way to measure happyness as what's 10 on a persons scale might be a 5 or a 2 on some other persons scale, this isn't measuring how happy someone is compared to someone else as much as it is measuring how happy someone thinks he is compared to someone else. This whole thing is bs, I'm not saying anything about western ideologies here, but the idea of measuring whether an ideology works by using an arrogance test is silly.

 

 

How happy your citizens are, even if it could be properly measured, isn't the only thing that needs to be taken into account when considering how an ideology is working out for a state. Making the people feel in control is one of the primary advantages of democracies, and that should boost "happyness", but on the other hand, democracies are completely incapable of going through hard but necesarry hardship, which is one of the things the more tyranical ideologies excel at. Sure Chinese people would probably be happier with democracy, but China would decend into even greater overpopulation if not for unpopular and tyranical one child policies.

 

There is absolutely nothing arrogant or random when these surveys get created. Also it is measured on a wide range of metrics that cover all aspects of life in those countries. If you don't agree with that I suggest you do some quick Google searches around " happiest countries in the world " and you will all the factors that get considered. Its very measurable

 

But end of the day yes certain things effect happiness on different levels but its not hard  to get consensus or accuracy when a questions is asked " are you happy living in your country" and this question is directly influenced by how the governments are seen to be running those countries

 

So if Western countries have the happiest citizens then doesn't that mean Western culture is overall the best culture in the world?

[Shallow]

 

There is absolutely nothing arrogant or random when these surveys get created. Also it is measured on a wide range of metrics that cover all aspects of life in those countries. If you don't agree with that I suggest you do some quick Google searches around " happiest countries in the world " and you will all the factors that get considered. Its very measurable

 

But end of the day yes certain things effect happiness on different levels but its not hard  to get consensus or accuracy when a questions is asked " are you happy living in your country" and this question is directly influenced by how the governments are seen to be running those countries

 

So if Western countries have the happiest citizens then doesn't that mean Western culture is overall the best culture in the world?

 

Bruce, you can color it up and act all superior as much as you want, I'm not saying things one way or another about happyness, because it's impossible to know what other peoples percieve as certain levels of happyness, but all these surveys show is how happy the people living in the countries think they are in relation to other people, it could very well be that said people are the happiest people in the world, but these things don't prove it, stop pretending they're worthwhile.

 

I can't decipher what you were trying to say in the second paragraph.

 

You said ideology earlier, culture isn't really the same thing, but no, it doesn't. As I said with China, if it behaved like a western country instead of tyranical anti baby policiesthe population would explode, western style democracies are absolutely horrible at dealing with something that requires long and hard oppresion of the people to prevent even worse disaster. All styles of government, have their ups and downs, western democracies aren't inherently better, they're nice enough when there is no imminent danger though.

[BruceVC]

 

 

There is absolutely nothing arrogant or random when these surveys get created. Also it is measured on a wide range of metrics that cover all aspects of life in those countries. If you don't agree with that I suggest you do some quick Google searches around " happiest countries in the world " and you will all the factors that get considered. Its very measurable

 

But end of the day yes certain things effect happiness on different levels but its not hard  to get consensus or accuracy when a questions is asked " are you happy living in your country" and this question is directly influenced by how the governments are seen to be running those countries

 

So if Western countries have the happiest citizens then doesn't that mean Western culture is overall the best culture in the world?

 

Bruce, you can color it up and act all superior as much as you want, I'm not saying things one way or another about happyness, because it's impossible to know what other peoples percieve as certain levels of happyness, but all these surveys show is how happy the people living in the countries think they are in relation to other people, it could very well be that said people are the happiest people in the world, but these things don't prove it, stop pretending they're worthwhile.

 

I can't decipher what you were trying to say in the second paragraph.

 

You said ideology earlier, culture isn't really the same thing, but no, it doesn't. As I said with China, if it behaved like a western country instead of tyranical anti baby policiesthe population would explode, western style democracies are absolutely horrible at dealing with something that requires long and hard oppresion of the people to prevent even worse disaster. All styles of government, have their ups and downs, western democracies aren't inherently better, they're nice enough when there is no imminent danger though.

 

 

You still seem to be misunderstanding something

 

I'll explain it differently, the metrics that determine if someone is happy is not as simple as a person being asked on the street " are you happy living in your country " and then if the person says " yes " this is considered proof of happiness

 

They look at a wide range of factors that include

• trust in your government
• economic opportunities
• ability of a particular government to deliver services
• perceptions of corruption
• gross domestic product per capita,
• life expectancy

 

They don't ask people how do you feel compared to citizens of other countries, they ask "how do you feel about living in your own country. So there should be no debate about

"what is the perception of happiness" because these surveys go into detail around a range of factors.

 

 

Of course all countries have ups and downs, but that's not the point. I am saying it's clear from numerous surveys that Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life so therefore they have the best systems of governments compared to other governments that exist  in the modern world. And many of these other governments don't follow the ideological system of governing that Western countries do, which is a  belief and implementation  in the importance of what a Democracy stands for.

.

[Valsuelm]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/travel/happiest-countries-to-visit/index.html

 

We have touched on this topic before and I have personally made the point that "Western culture is the superior culture to others " and this was criticised by some as hubris, inaccurate  and being "out of touch with reality "

 

But I think its a good time to revisit this discussion. When I say " Western ideology " is superior the fact is  that this list confirms this as the top ten countries  are all Western countries and they have the happiest citizens in the world

 

I'm not saying that Western countries have necessarily the cleverest people or that there aren't faults. The point is  that Western Democracies work. Despite there faults they give there citizens the best quality of life end of the day. So what's wrong with saying " Western ideology " offers the best system of government for its citizens and therefore are the best example of how countries should be run?

 

If you disagree with the my point that Western countries have the happiest citizens, and therefore the best governments, then please produce your own list so we can discuss it

 

I see the Scandinavian countries are again in the top 10 list, so once again the important consideration  of there socialist hybrid model really seems to work. High employment rate, high taxes but very effective government institutions. Isn't this model something we all should be aspiring to?

 

Do you sit around trying to come up with most inane superficial bull**** that you can think of that matters to no one that can critically think before you post things like this?

 

The subject matter may as well be 'People confirmed happier after eating Chocolate Ice Cream' or 'Being able to write your name in the snow in urine proves male virility' or 'Survey proves my High School is better than your High School.'

 

Who care? No it doesn't. And I prefer mine dry not shaken so I'm better than you!

[Barothmuk]

Oh Bruce.

[BruceVC]

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/travel/happiest-countries-to-visit/index.html

 

We have touched on this topic before and I have personally made the point that "Western culture is the superior culture to others " and this was criticised by some as hubris, inaccurate  and being "out of touch with reality "

 

But I think its a good time to revisit this discussion. When I say " Western ideology " is superior the fact is  that this list confirms this as the top ten countries  are all Western countries and they have the happiest citizens in the world

 

I'm not saying that Western countries have necessarily the cleverest people or that there aren't faults. The point is  that Western Democracies work. Despite there faults they give there citizens the best quality of life end of the day. So what's wrong with saying " Western ideology " offers the best system of government for its citizens and therefore are the best example of how countries should be run?

 

If you disagree with the my point that Western countries have the happiest citizens, and therefore the best governments, then please produce your own list so we can discuss it

 

I see the Scandinavian countries are again in the top 10 list, so once again the important consideration  of there socialist hybrid model really seems to work. High employment rate, high taxes but very effective government institutions. Isn't this model something we all should be aspiring to?

 

Do you sit around trying to come up with most inane superficial bull**** that you can think of that matters to no one that can critically think before you post things like this?

 

The subject matter may as well be 'People confirmed happier after eating Chocolate Ice Cream' or 'Being able to write your name in the snow in urine proves male virility' or 'Survey proves my High School is better than your High School.'

 

Who care? No it doesn't. And I prefer mine dry not shaken so I'm better than you!

 

 

And as usual you absolutely miss the point and refuse to see the facts , there is critical thinking that goes into these surveys. Its based on accurate and real metrics, I can't explain it any other way

 

In your view how would you measure if the citizens of a country are happy because obviously the global and accepted way of doing it isn't relevant to you ?

[Shallow]

You can't properly measure whether they're happy, you often seem to use absolutely no critical thinking whilst analyzing something that supports the things you like, these polls are pretty meaningless and there are much better things you can find that supports your views than silly happyness polls.

[BruceVC]

You can't properly measure whether they're happy, you often seem to use absolutely no critical thinking whilst analyzing something that supports the things you like, these polls are pretty meaningless and there are much better things you can find that supports your views than silly happyness polls.

 

You keep saying things like "these polls are meaningless" and somehow you think you  can't you create a series of questions that cover a wide range  of considerations  that analyse happiness in a country?

 

Despite the fact these are benchmarks that the UN uses. So I ask you again how would you measure the happiness of citizens of a particular country ?

 

I also love  the whole usage of the "no critical thinking " dismissal but yet you offer no viable alternative to this type of globally  acceptable way of gathering statistics

[Shallow]

You keep saying things like "these polls are meaningless" and somehow you think you  can't you create a series of questions that cover a wide range  of considerations  that analyse happiness in a country?

 

Despite the fact these are benchmarks that the UN uses. So I ask you again how would you measure the happiness of citizens of a particular country ?

 

I also love  the whole usage of the "no critical thinking " dismissal but yet you offer no viable alternative to this type of globally  acceptable way of gathering statistics

This style of statistics gathering works for a lots of things, it's just completely useless for things like happiness, as a measure of actual happiness (then again such a thing isn't really accurately measurable). For the record the UN isn't exactly the most competent organization ever.

[Walsingham]

What I will say is that any man who regards subjective judgements as beneath examination, renders himself and his entire experience in life null and void.

 

Moreover, he is a c***.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Walsingham

[Valsuelm]

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/travel/happiest-countries-to-visit/index.html

 

We have touched on this topic before and I have personally made the point that "Western culture is the superior culture to others " and this was criticised by some as hubris, inaccurate  and being "out of touch with reality "

 

But I think its a good time to revisit this discussion. When I say " Western ideology " is superior the fact is  that this list confirms this as the top ten countries  are all Western countries and they have the happiest citizens in the world

 

I'm not saying that Western countries have necessarily the cleverest people or that there aren't faults. The point is  that Western Democracies work. Despite there faults they give there citizens the best quality of life end of the day. So what's wrong with saying " Western ideology " offers the best system of government for its citizens and therefore are the best example of how countries should be run?

 

If you disagree with the my point that Western countries have the happiest citizens, and therefore the best governments, then please produce your own list so we can discuss it

 

I see the Scandinavian countries are again in the top 10 list, so once again the important consideration  of there socialist hybrid model really seems to work. High employment rate, high taxes but very effective government institutions. Isn't this model something we all should be aspiring to?

 

Do you sit around trying to come up with most inane superficial bull**** that you can think of that matters to no one that can critically think before you post things like this?

 

The subject matter may as well be 'People confirmed happier after eating Chocolate Ice Cream' or 'Being able to write your name in the snow in urine proves male virility' or 'Survey proves my High School is better than your High School.'

 

Who care? No it doesn't. And I prefer mine dry not shaken so I'm better than you!

 

 

And as usual you absolutely miss the point and refuse to see the facts , there is critical thinking that goes into these surveys. Its based on accurate and real metrics, I can't explain it any other way

 

In your view how would you measure if the citizens of a country are happy because obviously the global and accepted way of doing it isn't relevant to you ?

 

 

What facts? The ones you subjectively choose to pretend are there that reinforces your disposition?

 

A survey on happiness is never going to be anything but subjective. One man's treasure is another man's trash, vice versa, and the same goes for something intangible like happiness.

[Shallow]

What I will say is that any man who regards subjective judgements as beneath examination, renders himself and his entire experience in life null and void.

 

Moreover, he is a c***.

They certainly aren't beneath examination, such things are fun to examine, and can grant some perspective, but they certainly shouldn't be treated as proof.

[BruceVC]

 

What I will say is that any man who regards subjective judgements as beneath examination, renders himself and his entire experience in life null and void.

 

Moreover, he is a c***.

They certainly aren't beneath examination, such things are fun to examine, and can grant some perspective, but they certainly shouldn't be treated as proof.

 

 

So let me get this straight, if I ask 10 people  in a room ( who all live in the UK ) " are you happy living in the UK " and 8 of those people say " yes "

 

Its not proof or can be accepted  that out of those 10 people,  the majority of  them are happy living in the UK?

Edited October 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Rosbjerg]

People are responding to words like (paraphrasing) "inherently superior" and "inadmissible".

 

I can say, coming from nr 1 on that list, that should you ask Danes (or any Scandinavian) in the winter rather than spring/summer - we'd most likely drop a few ranks. Trust in government is obviously higher in social democracies that work, so no wonder we are at the top in that particular question - but does that mean we are happier than Americans, who basically despise their government?

 

It's also interesting that, as of 2011 - nearly 450.000, out of 5 million inhabitants, are on antidepressants here. While an additional 200.000 have bought it at least 1 time. (source in Danish)

[BruceVC]

People are responding to words like (paraphrasing) "inherently superior" and "inadmissible".

 

I can say, coming from nr 1 on that list, that should you ask Danes (or any Scandinavian) in the winter rather than spring/summer - we'd most likely drop a few ranks. Trust in government is obviously higher in social democracies that work, so no wonder we are at the top in that particular question - but does that mean we are happier than Americans, who basically despise their government?

 

It's also interesting, that out of 5 million inhabitants, nearly 450.000 are on antidepressants here. While an additional 200.000 have bought it at least 1 time.

 

Yes I suppose you right, its the usage of words like superior that is the problem

 

But this is part of my point, is it wrong or politically incorrect  to say Western countries have better governments than non-Western governments? If the benchmark is the quality of life and happiness factor then the facts speak for themselves?

 

So why deny something that's true? And that doesn't mean Western governments are perfect

[Monte Carlo]

Ros, given the bio-chemical basis for depression as an illness and its link to circadian cycles / vitamin D and light, it is generally accepted that Scandie smartie-poppin' is linked to your weather / winter cycles.

 

Apart from that, I find myself in agreement with Bruce. Of course, we are likely to argue over details of social democracy versus market-based capitalism but that's a pleasant First World Dilemma. After all, we are making the argument over advanced information technology platforms in houses with a roof and running water in relatively safe communities.

 

Many do not have that luxury, but Bruce's point should be self-evident.

 

This chap posted a fascinating article on how the radical left has morphed existentially, and I think it might offer an insight into the argument we're having here. Check it out:

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100289512/why-the-students-are-revolting/

 

The post-Marxist bogeyman is no longer Capital, it is simply the construct. The West. It's a return to 'noble savage' Victorian tropes by the left, fed by anti-Globalisation theory and long-march, Frankfurt Skool strategies.

 

It's even more dangerous than the poison that provoked the generation of 1968.

 

Interesting times.

[BruceVC]

Ros, given the bio-chemical basis for depression as an illness and its link to circadian cycles / vitamin D and light, it is generally accepted that Scandie smartie-poppin' is linked to your weather / winter cycles.

 

Apart from that, I find myself in agreement with Bruce. Of course, we are likely to argue over details of social democracy versus market-based capitalism but that's a pleasant First World Dilemma. After all, we are making the argument over advanced information technology platforms in houses with a roof and running water in relatively safe communities.

 

Many do not have that luxury, but Bruce's point should be self-evident.

 

This chap posted a fascinating article on how the radical left has morphed existentially, and I think it might offer an insight into the argument we're having here. Check it out:

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100289512/why-the-students-are-revolting/

 

The post-Marxist bogeyman is no longer Capital, it is simply the construct. The West. It's a return to 'noble savage' Victorian tropes by the left, fed by anti-Globalisation theory and long-march, Frankfurt Skool strategies.

 

It's even more dangerous than the poison that provoked the generation of 1968.

 

Interesting times.

 

That's a good link you posted

 

I like the part

 

"And the new paradigm dominates and distorts the debate about Israel and the Palestinians.

Israel comes across as the Western white guys, whilst the Arabs and Palestinians are the anti-colonial people of colour. It doesn’t matter what the details of any episode are: history tells us that one side are the ‘good guys’ and the forces of the future while the other side are the forces of the past which need to be swept away"

 

I see this is in the South African context , any comparison to Western countries is immediately dismissed by some. For example sometimes on prominent talk shows debates like "Is Democracy right for Africa " are held. Some commentators say things like " The reason why Africa can't uplift itself  is because we are following an un-African way of economic transformation ". So people raise strange questions like " does Democracy work ". I'll then phone in and make points like " yes of course Democracy works, look at the citizens of the happiest countries in the world. They are Western Democracies "

 

This doesn't go down well because people are still thinking of Western countries in the Colonial narrative and can't accept the positive we can learn from the Europeans and Americans

Edited October 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Monte Carlo]

Exactly, Bruce. What does SA want to do? Sell everything to China and live in their hybrid Capitalist-lite one-party state?

 

Look at the alternatives. As a world-weary proponent of 'the least worst' school of thought, your initial proposition is self-evidently correct.

[TrashMan]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/travel/happiest-countries-to-visit/index.html

 

We have touched on this topic before and I have personally made the point that "Western culture is the superior culture to others " and this was criticised by some as hubris, inaccurate  and being "out of touch with reality "

 

But I think its a good time to revisit this discussion. When I say " Western ideology " is superior the fact is  that this list confirms this as the top ten countries  are all Western countries and they have the happiest citizens in the world

 

Bah.

As if hapiness could be easily measured. I do wonder what methodology was used and how the sample was picked.

 

I read a study that said the average aboridgini tribesman was happier than a westerner.

[TrashMan]

 

 

You still seem to be misunderstanding something

 

I'll explain it differently, the metrics that determine if someone is happy is not as simple as a person being asked on the street " are you happy living in your country " and then if the person says " yes " this is considered proof of happiness

 

They look at a wide range of factors that include

• trust in your government
• economic opportunities
• ability of a particular government to deliver services
• perceptions of corruption
• gross domestic product per capita,
• life expectancy

 

They don't ask people how do you feel compared to citizens of other countries, they ask "how do you feel about living in your own country. So there should be no debate about

"what is the perception of happiness" because these surveys go into detail around a range of factors.

 

 

Then its' not "hapiness" they are measuring but "how happy I think people should be based on how I see their country".

So basically a bit, fat lie.