Out of combat buffs

[curryinahurry]

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

[Cantousent]

I hadn't read the thread and I was worried that the point I was going to make was already stated.  Hot damn, Curry already said the same thing.  The problem is that a lot of folks won't want to waste time when faced with the choice of buffing or doing something else.  Make it a little easier and perhaps a little less painful to take the time to buff at the start of combat and I think it won't be an issue at all.  Buffs can be incredibly powerful, which offsets losing precious time that you can't damage the enemy or heal your comrades.

[Matt516]

Goodness gracious, you two, give it a rest.

 

Especially Hiro - you're arguing with like 5 people at the moment. Admirable stamina, but really not productive to the thread in the least. Take the personal insults to PM if you must. Leave the forums for issue-based arguments. (You too, Uomoz. Arguing about who is or isn't a troll, while on the internet, is like punching a cactus. It's stupid.)

[curryinahurry]

Actually, the more I think about having a combat 'ready' action slot, the more I like it.  It gives those who want to pause at the beginning of combat and those who don't similar flexibility in queuing up actions while working as a contingency/ give-away to the pre-buff crowd.  Although, I would be interested in reading about any alternatives that solved the problem ina simialr manner.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

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Edited October 9, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Goodness gracious, you two, give it a rest.

 

Especially Hiro - you're arguing with like 5 people at the moment. Admirable stamina, but really not productive to the thread in the least. Take the personal insults to PM if you must. Leave the forums for issue-based arguments. (You too, Uomoz. Arguing about who is or isn't a troll, while on the internet, is like punching a cactus. It's stupid.)

 

I have my pm's blocked from the trolls. So asking me to take this to pm's with the trolls is not going to happen. Also, I didn't realise there was a limit to who you can debate with. And I note that I'm responding to people who have either quoted me or directed their comments to me. So if 5 people quote me, I'll respond to those 5 people. And as PrimeJunta did with me, you can always put me on ignore. Also, I wasn't the one who admitted trolling this thread. Go talk to Uomoz about that.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Guest 4ward]

Actually, the more I think about having a combat 'ready' action slot, the more I like it.  It gives those who want to pause at the beginning of combat and those who don't similar flexibility in queuing up actions while working as a contingency/ give-away to the pre-buff crowd.  Although, I would be interested in reading about any alternatives that solved the problem ina simialr manner.

 

maybe each encounter should start with even odds between you and the enemy, well at least i think that would be good for starters. If a lich in BG2 hadn’t already been set up with all possible protections I wouldn’t have had the need for casting protection spells before I got to him. I mean, just imagine, the lich casts summon pit fiend, timestop and whatnot and you’re still casting a protection spell. But since I don’t play the beta I wouldn’t know, perhaps that’s already in.

 

[curryinahurry]

^  Right, that's the general idea...The design concept is to make these spell casting decision have an opportunity cost.  So cast offensive or defensive spell? what does the situation dictate?  The problem right now is that the default action speed of spells is slower than ranged attacks.  That is why I am thinking a free action or contingency/ ready action slot might solve this so that a first reaction/ action would trump default speeds that will always favor one party over another.

 

The other way to solve this is to have a 'target acquisition' delay for ranged weapons at the start of combat or when switching targets.  Either way, both allow for a more level playing field.

Edited October 9, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Sensuki]

Spell recovery time is also too long. That's a big problem atm.

[Guest 4ward]

^  Right, that's the general idea...The design concept is to make these spell casting decision have an opportunity cost.  So cast offensive or defensive spell? what does the situation dictate?  The problem right now is that the default action speed of spells is slower than ranged attacks.  That is why I am thinking a free action or contingency/ ready action slot might solve this so that a first reaction/ action would trump default speeds that will always favor one party over another.

 

The other way to solve this is to have a 'target acquisition' delay for ranged weapons at the start of combat or when switching targets.  Either way, both allow for a more level playing field.

or the caster classes would receive a per-encounter instantenous short-duration protection spell like stoneskin(wizards)/ironskin(druids). After that initial defensive spell (which would have to be breached or hit like 5 times) giving you a breather you could do whatever you’d like to e.g. cast another protection with fire shield or attack with magic missile or summon creatures. So just your first spell would always be defensive. Afaik stoneskin was cast in an instant in BG2.

[curryinahurry]

^ Eh..I think, if I'm understanding you correctly, that might be a bit much.  If there was an ability like that, it should last the same duration as a shield spell or be dispelled by damage (maybe 50 points).  Also, every class should have unique options in this regard.  

 

BTW, the beta has our character under-equipped, so there may be ways through crafting or items that help with defense as well.  Some of these things are going to be unknown until the full game releases.

[wanderon]

I'm not sure where this argument about ranged attacks being faster than casting times and how it apparently takes out casters before they can get any protections up is coming from. I have not seen this occur in the BB at all. Is this actually happening to people or is it just conjecture that it might happen/could happen due to the difference in attack/casting timing?

 

My caster types are typically not in the front line and generally are the last ones to be targeted by enemies in the BB at least until they do some significant damage to some enemy that is not otherwise engaged.

[Gfted1]

If everyone could focus that laser sharp wit on the posts and not the posters, that would be appreciated.

[morhilane]

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

 

You are trying to solve a balance issues (that could be caused by a bug) with a new feature. Lets start by fixing the damage multipliers problem first. A rogue shouldn't deal 78 damage on a critical with a siletto when the weapon damage range is 10-16 (I've seen it yesterday).

[curryinahurry]

 

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

 

You are trying to solve a balance issues (that could be caused by a bug) with a new feature. Lets start by fixing the damage multipliers problem first. A rogue shouldn't deal 78 damage on a critical with a siletto when the weapon damage range is 10-16 (I've seen it yesterday).

 

 

I don't disagree...I'm discussing the pre-buff issue and range atacks.  I agree that there is something wonky with rogue multipliers, but I still think there is an issue with timing attacks /buffing at the beginning of melee.  If ranged attacks always strike faster than a caster being able to buff, then the strategy isn't really about 'opportunity cost' as Josh Sawyer wants; its baked into the melee process, which is bad design.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

 

Most certainly not! That would add an arbitrary ad hoc rule. The ideal is a system where all wheels rotate in harmony, not one that relies on exceptions to the rules to function.

 

The root here is how combat begins--particularly as concerns LoS. Baring stealth, enemies should engage on sight. If the player can see enemies without the use of stealth or spell/abilities yet the enemy does attack....then you have a LoS problem. Simple as that. So long as LoS is functioning correctly and classes are balanced, pre-buffing is not an encounter design conundrum, it's a player preference.

 

I'm confident that once both of those are solved for PoE, arbitrary restrictions on what spells can be cast when and where shall be removed.

[Karkarov]

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

I don't know sounds like a very complex fix.  I think it would be easier to just adjust the cast time and recovery of buff spells and maybe lower the damage on the horribly OP arquebus and arbalest. 

[wanderon]

I'm going to ask again is anyone actually getting their wizards butt shot off at the start of combat due to this issue with casting speed vs ranged attack speed? I know I have not ever seen this in any of my adventures in the BB...???

[Cubiq]

I'm not sure.

Normally no as the AI is pretty stupid and you have a preemptive strike vs 99% of the fights so you just position your wizard at the back.

However if someone was playing a front line wizard with armor, then maybe it's possible.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Cubiq

[morhilane]

However if someone was playing a front line wizard with armor, then maybe it's possible.

 

I did a melee Wizard a few days ago, he wasn't one-shot more than any other BB characters can get one-shot. I gave him the fine scale armor form BB Fighter inventory + shield spell + arcane veil.

 

I also tanked with the BB Priest (her default hammer+shield setup), worked surprisingly well. Only the endurance/health conversation ratio sucks to have a real tanky Priest.

[Sensuki]

Endurance relative to damage taken isn't that different. At max a Wizard frontlining would probably take one less hit from a monster such as a beetle than say a Fighter or something would (given the same CON).

 

I'm nearly finished an IWD playthrough and aside from the Ogre at the start of the game, incoming damage relative to HP is pretty low overall. There's a few enemies such as Frost/Fire Giants and melee attacks from Armored Servants or whatever that do fairly high per-hit damage, but with max HP per level it feels very well balanced compared to PE, perhaps a bit too easy though.

 

Big difference is that stats don't give bonuses to ranged damage, whereas in PE they do.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[curryinahurry]

 

There is no need for pre-buffing.  

 

The central issue here isn't really the casting of buffs, but rather a flaw in how opportunity costs for actions work in the game.  It seems that currently, actions fire off at their normal rate at the beginning of combat.  The problem with this is that most spells seem to take longer than firing a ranged weapon, leading to conditions where casters can potentially be 1 shot by rogues or other characters wielding arbelests and arquebuses.  The simplest way to solve this problem is to create a free action at the beginning of any combat, where all actions occur simultaneously, modified by Dexterity (IAS).  Its a bit of a quick draw scenario, but a simpler solution than going through pre-buffs.

 

An alternative to this would be to have a melee ready slot for each character in the action bar.  This ready slot (a contingency of sorts) could be filled with any action and ready slots would fire off in the same way as I stated above, modified by action speed (unless cancelled in a pause action).  

 

Most certainly not! That would add an arbitrary ad hoc rule. The ideal is a system where all wheels rotate in harmony, not one that relies on exceptions to the rules to function.

 

The root here is how combat begins--particularly as concerns LoS. Baring stealth, enemies should engage on sight. If the player can see enemies without the use of stealth or spell/abilities yet the enemy does attack....then you have a LoS problem. Simple as that. So long as LoS is functioning correctly and classes are balanced, pre-buffing is not an encounter design conundrum, it's a player preference.

 

I'm confident that once both of those are solved for PoE, arbitrary restrictions on what spells can be cast when and where shall be removed.

 

 

I am thinking of situations like the Sevis fight, where there is a conversation before combat.  The LoS situation you're bringing up will likely be the more typical situation, but there will be plenty where there will first be a dialog.  Coming out of those situations currently, casters are at a significant disadvantage to range types.   Of course, as Karkarov stated in his post, it might be as simple as decreasing cast times for certain spells.  I'm just trying to come up with a solution where one actor doesn't have a hardwired advantage over another.

 

@ Karkarov, an alternative to speeding up spell casting time could be to slow down the initial attack speed of ranged weapons; possibly a few seconds to simulate acquiring the target?  Adjusted by action speed, of course.

Edited October 12, 2014 by curryinahurry