The Rest of the Story - Iraq

[Ellester]

First off, I don

[taks]

and i'm accused of "foxeria" when i say only a small percentage of the country is actually rebelling against our presence. i agree they probably all want us to let them take over the reigns (a large majority at least), but they certainly appreciate the fact they no longer need fear saddam...

 

 

taks

[Monte Carlo]

Stop strafing civilian areas with AC130 gunships, then all the stuff this GI is talking about will be worth something. As somebody who broadly supported the War, I'm disgusted by the total post-conflict balls-up engineered by Messrs. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

 

You can't machinegun people into supporting you. Seriously.

 

Cheers

MC

[taks]

rummy hasn't performed nearly as well as he did a year ago. two different types of operations (peace keeping, conquering) require two different mindsets/methods of operation.

 

a similar analogy would be starting your own company. the skillset required to get it off the ground is usually quite a bit different than what is required to keep in running once things have settled in. my boss lost his job a year ago because of this fact.

 

taks

[Volourn]

You talking about Fallujah, Monte? First off, I don't think the US should have besiged that city anyways; but I seriously dohbt they were 'strafing civilian area' liek you suggets. If they did; there'd be a lot more civilian casualties. Way more.

 

Anyways, topic on hand, thsoe are good things, but there are abd things going on as well. The mess with fallujah which looks to be being cleared up,a dn the awful occurances at the prisons as just two examples.

 

So, meh, I say it's mixed.

[Monte Carlo]

Vol, you really don't have a bloody clue what you are talking about:. hitting any area in urban warfare leads to civilian casualties.

 

What do you think the insurgents go? Helpfully paint a line around the buildings they occupy? The zeal with which the US armed forces deploy overwhelming force is a matter of record. Go away and grace another thread with your ignorance.

[Volourn]

You missed hte point . Youw er eimplying that the US was extrmely careless and was just unlaoding guns elft and riht. If that wer eso, there'd be THOSUANDS of dead Fallujahan CITIZENS. That is simply not the case. Your delusions are showing your ignorance.

 

Once again, i don't even support the Amerikan attack on Fallujah. i think theyw ent too far in their repsonse. However, extremes and streches of the truth like you posted helps no one. Period.

[Tigranes]

Do you think there is a consistent, accurate figure of any casualties or such in the entire affair that is released to the general public? Doubtful.

[Colrom]

You missed hte point . Youw er eimplying that the US was extrmely careless and was just unlaoding guns elft and riht. If that wer eso, there'd be THOSUANDS of dead Fallujahan CITIZENS. That is simply not the case.

Vol,

 

There *have* been at leat a thouosand Iraqis killed in and around Fallujah. We know of about a thousand already. More will be found as they dig out the rubble. The US has been using some very large bombs there - even before the recent events.

 

The real issue is that we are engaged in a race/religious war and our soldiers are acting as one could reasonably expect soldiers to act when they are given that kind of mission.

 

If you doubt that we are engaged in a racial religious war then I challenge you to go to your local bookstore and compare how many books have good and bad things to say about: Arabs or Islam, Christianity, Judaism. I challenge you to compare how many quotes you can get from George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, and most anybody else from American society that have good and bad things to say about the same.

 

It is a clue and guidance on expected behavior for ourselves and our soldiers when most speakers who include the words "Arab" or "Islam" or "Muslim" cannot finish a paragraph without also including words like "Sept 11", "terrorists", "radical", "war", "extreme", and so on.

 

The sometimes expressed premise that we need to teach Arabs and Islamics how to live and govern themselves is also rediculous.

 

The post that started this thread is a fine example of propaganda work that could just well have been prepared by Doctor Joseph Goebel talking about the fine work of Nazi soldiers in Poland or Russia or any nhumber of other places.

 

The fact is that we cannot make good from evil - and this is somewhat more evident now, when truth is more revealed, and our fantasies of conquest and occupation are destroyed by undesired evidence of reality.

[Volourn]

Colrom, true, there's been many casualties in Falklujah, but accoridng to the doctors after the toruble has somewhat died down the majority of said casulties were fighters not unarmed civilians. Monet was saying that the US was just bombing everywhere and anywhere. Sure, they used bombs but it wa stargeted bombing (of course even targeting bombing isn't going to be perfect). And, oh, for the third time, I do not agree with what happened in Fallujah at all. The US handled that entire situation wrong. No exuse for what happened; but there is no need to make things up to get the point across.

 

True, the first post could e considered propaganda. But, the main point is while there is bad stuff going on Iraq (Fallujah, Prison Scandal as eamples0 there are also good things happening. That's the main point I take out of it.

 

As for it being a racist/religious war; I'm sure it is for many people on both sides. But, if it was really one that why do many Arabs/Muslims either support the war outight ( see Kuwait as one and that includes a sizeable majority of Kuwait's popualtion)) or support in roundabout ways. Remember, the whole thing about WMD starting out with lies seemingly by actual Iraqis who wanted the invasion to occur. I think it's tad of a stretch to call this a race/religious war. You do relazie that in the majority of race/religious war; it usually ends up being mass genocide. As horrible as some things in iraq have been done; that has not happened. And, while I guess it is a possibilty I seriousy doubt it will happen ..

 

Our fantasies? I have no fantasy of conquest and occupation. Please don't put me in any group that wishes or dreams about it. Thankyou.

[taks]

perhaps if iraqi insurgents didn't have a habit of hiding among civilian areas (thereby using civilians as shields) there wouldn't be such an issue. also, the fact that the civilians allowed the rebels to set up camp in their town implies complicity. if these civiliancs really are "innconent," then maybe they should be handing over the rebels?

 

taks

[Judge Hades]

I don't particularly give a crap about Iraq. All that money we are pouring into that country would be better spent on US schools, infrastructure, and US Citizens. Iraq is simply a money pit that has given Bush dreams of grandeur. Manifest Destiny and all that bullshat.

 

We need to get our troops home and our tax money spent here in the US. Screw Iraq. Let them take care of them own damn selves.

[Darque]

As much as I'm happy Iraq is better off... the US isn't in that great of shape.

 

You need to save yourself before you can save the world.

 

The US needs to focus on itself.

[Volourn]

I don't care about the US. It's in better shape than most of the world. Iraq, and countries in the same shape as it should get top priority.

[Darque]

You're missing the point Volourn.

[Morgoth]

Again the US government proved how foolish and irresponsible they were to think they could bring democracy in an other (and different) country. Democracy is something the people have to fight and earn for their own...

An what's now? Suffering and costs are raising to the skies, and if the US are leaving Iraq, there are only shattered remained, an ideal base for breeding new terrorists... and so the cat beats in her own tail.

[Gorth]

On a less serious note. Most of what transpires in Iraq today is pretty predictable. A couple of friends and I tried figuring out possible scenarios and placed small bets. I was two events short of being completely correct. They did manage to capture Saddam alive and Turkey didn't invade northern Iraq. Both of which were surprises to me.

 

Ah well, Saddam can still escape from prison, and the Turks haven't had their final word yet, I might still win

 

Edit: That was predictions made before the invasion btw.

[Judge Hades]

I don't care about the US. It's in better shape than most of the world. Iraq, and countries in the same shape as it should get top priority.

Then let the UN do it or let the Iraqis do it for themselves.

[Morgoth]

Then let the UN do it or let the Iraqis do it for themselves.

If it would be that easy...

Iraq is already lost. That's a major fault of the inconsiderately behaviour of the US. There's no way out of this mess... Bush wants to keep his troops for decades if necessary, to ensure to establishing "Democracy". HAHA! Iraq is the second Vietnam...there're only losers...and deads.

[Judge Hades]

I remember back in the days of the first Bush saying that Iraq wouldn't be a second Vietnam. Boy, was he so wrong. Gawds, I can't wait for W. Bush and his thugs are out of the office.

[Morgoth]

Yes, but the question is: Would it be really that different if "**** & Doof" are out?

[Volourn]

LOL Depsite how bad things seem to be going in iraq to actually compare it to Vietnam goes to show some people don't know the history of Vitenam.

 

And, the UN, Hades? Double LOL. The same Un who is "rumoured" to have very important members who accepted bribes from Hussein so he can continue to starve the Iraqi people in spite of the 'food for Oil" program? The same UN who only does lip service to helping innocent people? Triple LOL

 

Also, to those who don't know, I'm not a bif fan of Bush. he's obviously made some horrendous mistakes. On top of that, i didn't even want him to win the last election. Al Gore all the way!

[Morgoth]

I don't think that comparison with Vietnam is bad... Vietnam was a sign for unconquerably worldwide, and it seems that despite one year after the official "the war is over" statement there's still war in Iraq, more terror, more suffer and more deads...Tendency rising. So tell me how the US will straighten this mess?

[Volourn]

There was no "war is over" statement. Why do you say that/ I heard a 'major combat is over' statement which is vastly different. Perhaps your perception is skewered. By and large, releatively speaking major combat has been over with the whole Fallujah mess being the main exception.

 

As for how the US cna fix the mess? Who knows. They need to clean up the messes they made as lots of screw ups have been made. 'Tis a shame too.

[Morgoth]

Call it whatever you want. There were still more US soldiers killed after the "major combat is over" than during the invasion... Such statements are one way or the other for the ass if it comes out of Bush's mouth.