New build feedback

[Matt516]

True, but they can be built to primarily deal damage, or to take damage, or to support, or some combination. If you take those 3 "front-liner" archetypes, you won't find a single attribute that isn't useful for at least one of them.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Matt516

[Hormalakh]

Monks and Barbarians especially (Fighters too) don't have ranged archetypes.

 

Fighters with bows. Barbarians with throwing axes. It would be nice for monks/barbarians to have "sprint" abilities where they can immediately close the gap between enemies (Think like Chaos Knight's Reality Rift from Dota2) and this would be based on ranged. That was off the top of my head, but hopefully they can come up with other abilities that have a range in effect.

[Sensuki]

There are no throwing axes. Fighters with bows are awful. You're thinking ideologically rather than realistically (as in what the game actually offers).

[Hormalakh]

 

I absolutely HATE the new mouse over highlighting, is there any way we can turn that off ? Why the hell was that added in, it's totally unnecessary ...

 

(Edit: Well actually if it was changed so that it only showed when using certain actions that would be better, all the time is overkill)

I do agree that it's a bit jarring at first, especially to a player expecting an IE game experience. We've internally talked about possibly making it a combat only feature, which I think is reasonable. So far from my experience the highlights help a lot when trying to pick out a character in chaotic combat situations, and works wonders with AOE placement.

 

 

I actually really like the highlight for other things like finding ingredients and selecting villagers. I would keep it in, and perhaps have a timer before it starts highlighting or an option to turn it off. I think it's a great idea Kaz, I'd be sad to see it only be used in combat.

[Sensuki]

In combat would be silly, it's unnecessary for mousing over people to inspect them. Combat only would also not cover the clause where you initiate combat yourself against a neutral enemy.

 

It should be attack, ability and spell cursor/highlights only.

[Hormalakh]

There are no throwing axes. Fighters with bows are awful. You're thinking ideologically rather than realistically (as in what the game actually offers).

 

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability, not because of the ranged aspect but because of the accuracy aspect. Rangers probably should really consider perception, but you are looking at range without considering the fact that it is only one side of the coin that is perception.

 

So, ACTUALLY, you're thinking ideologically not realistically. I think it might have to do with the fact that you didn't get exactly what you wanted, but I'm not a psychiatrist.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Razsius]

Hmm I miscounted for that first pull of yours Sen they did take away a single wood beetle (well I was counting the stray wood beetle) and moved the second stone beetle along with the only wood left.  But as far as I can tell at least two of the other beetle encounters are exactly the same. No, wait, looks like they moved that wood beetle to the top pack so it's a 3 pull now.

 

So not really nerfed all around just tweaked.

 

I'm not sure I like the new health bars.  The neon green makes it easier to see but... 

[IndiraLightfoot]

-The first areas in the BB seemed to have been touched up significantly, graphically and sound-wise. I love the footstep sounds now. Unfortunately, the exaggerated heat waves still remain in the tavern and elsewhere on large fires.

-Our char models are more distinct now (but not enough - they need outlines or contours, I reckon, ever so slightly)

-Combat felt significantly better, even if I get over that constant sense of urgency, like every value is always ticking down - it's like that "in need of a surgeon"-timer in WL2 - but on plenty of stuff, it's rather stressful for a CRPG of this kind. Still, on Normal, it all was clearer, and seemingly the DT was lowered overall.

-I played a Bleakwalker paladin with a fire-godlike, and I pumped dexterity, followed by lots of strength, constitution and perception - then I dropped the rest to bad levels. I picked damage enhancing skills on top of that, and got a beast in combat.

-Spell icons, a big thumbs-up!

-You get xp for small task updates now (even smaller, I think, than in the last patch) - even though the xp given is clearly too much just to make us level faster for the beta.

-The new UI with 16 slots is fine, but that's were it will stop. It will never get any better than that. I reckon a WL2 invo UI, a bit like Sensuki's last suggested UI with tabs and an invo for each character, is what is needed. And please, please, make the items we find bigger - I hate these 5 mm x 5 mm mini squares fitting everything from plate mails to war hammers. Once again, steal the WL2 layout, at least.

Edited September 26, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability

Yes it does because range is not a combat stat that is useful for all classes and builds and therefore fails to meet the system design goals.

 

I'm not sure I like the new health bars.  The neon green makes it easier to see but...

I agree it's pretty ugly.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[BlueLion]

Some of the new icons are awesome, yet some seem lower res? Are these intentional.

[Sensuki]

If they've made the icon at a larger size and shrunk it down, they've probably lost quality. The game also doesn't handle downscaling very well.

[archangel979]

 

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability

Yes it does because range is not a combat stat that is useful for all classes and builds and therefore fails to meet the system design goals.

 

I'm not sure I like the new health bars.  The neon green makes it easier to see but...

I agree it's pretty ugly.

 

Neither does AoE increase. So what? 

The problem here is not the attributes but classes not having enough build options based on their own abilities/talents.

[Sensuki]

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

[Matt516]

 

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability

Yes it does because range is not a combat stat that is useful for all classes and builds and therefore fails to meet the system design goals.

 

 

Recall though that the design goals were regarding attributes, not just any combat stats. Range isn't useful for all classes, but Accuracy is. And again, the goal wasn't for all attributes to be useful for all builds (AKA archetypes), but for all attributes to be useful for all classes. It's an important distinction.

[Hormalakh]

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

So limited AoE is OK, but fighting with bows is out of the question? If I'm not mistaken BB Fighter has an Arbalest.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hormalakh

[archangel979]

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

[Matt516]

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

So limited AoE is OK, but fighting with bows is out of the question? If I'm not mistaken BB Fgihter has an Arbalest. WTF are you talking about?

 

 

He's saying that Fighters have crappy base Ranged Accuracy, therefore Ranged is really not a good option for them. Which is true. You can build a ranged Fighter, but it's going to be inferior to a ranged Ranger pretty much every time. The Fighter class is designed for the front.

 

That said, I still don't think PER is a bad option for Fighters - even though Range is a bad stat for them, Accuracy makes up for that. So IMO the design goals do not fail in that instance.

[Matt516]

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

 

 

It's not about ranged weapons' power, it's about the inherent Accuracy boni and abilities Fighters get (or don't get in the case of ranged). The Fighter class is not designed to do well with ranged weapons - therefore counting "Range" as a good combat stat for Fighters is silly. Again though, the argument is moot because not every stat attached to every attribute has to be useful for every class - just every attribute as a whole. Range is bad for Fighters, but Accuracy makes up for it. Why are we still talking about this?

Edited September 26, 2014 by Matt516

[Hormalakh]

 

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

 

 

It's not about ranged weapons' power, it's about the inherent Accuracy boni and abilities Fighters get (or don't get in the case of ranged). The Fighter class is not designed to do well with ranged weapons - therefore counting "Range" as a good combat stat for Fighters is silly. Again though, the argument is moot because not every stat attached to every attribute has to be useful for every class - just every attribute as a whole. Range is bad for Fighters, but Accuracy makes up for it. Why are we still talking about this?

 

 

So then this is definitely a place where talents are required. There needs to be talents that make fighters (once, the most versatile of combat-oriented right-clickers) viable ranged attackers. This should not be the purview of rangers only. If a fighter and barbarian have talents that make ranged combat viable and "inherently effective" this would be further of a non-issue.

[Marinus]

I would love to see a movie or at least some screenshots with the improvements in this new beta update, could one of you gents be suaded to post some.

 

pretty pretty please.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

So then this is definitely a place where talents are required. There needs to be talents that make fighters (once, the most versatile of combat-oriented right-clickers) viable ranged attackers. This should not be the purview of rangers only. If a fighter and barbarian have talents that make ranged combat viable and "inherently effective" this would be further of a non-issue.

 

^This deserves to be underlined. Plus, I really, really would like to play a fighter that specializes with a bow, without having an animal in tow.

[Sensuki]

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

Dude, stop arguing for the sake of it. Monks do not do ranged, because they NEED to be attacked to get wounds. Melee will be better for them 99% of the time. Fighters also are required to draw aggro, they don't really have anything that gives them range. Barbarians are the same.

 

Range is awful, you need to be close to your other party members to be in the AoE buff ranges anyway. It's like the tackiest bonus ever (and if you read the patch notes, it's actually not working yet). It does nothing to help balance Perception against Might.

 

It's one of those "thrown in for the sake of it" things.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Matt516]

I mean... The PoE Fighter is not the D&D Fighter. While I also think having a Ranged specialist who is not the Ranger would be nice, I don't think it has to be the Fighter by any means. Do any of the classes have a base 20 Ranged bonus? I don't remember. If there are any, that's a good secondary Ranged specialist right there.

 

EDIT: Cipher does. There ya go!

Edited September 26, 2014 by Matt516

[IndiraLightfoot]

Matt516: Agreed. Perhaps the Rogue would be the better option. What base ranged damage does it have?

[Razsius]

 

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

So limited AoE is OK, but fighting with bows is out of the question? If I'm not mistaken BB Fgihter has an Arbalest. WTF are you talking about?

 

 

He's saying that Fighters have crappy base Ranged Accuracy, therefore Ranged is really not a good option for them. Which is true. You can build a ranged Fighter, but it's going to be inferior to a ranged Ranger pretty much every time. The Fighter class is designed for the front.

 

That said, I still don't think PER is a bad option for Fighters - even though Range is a bad stat for them, Accuracy makes up for that. So IMO the design goals do not fail in that instance.

 

 

Actually, might want to check out character creation in the latest patch as they've either accidentally forgotten to give ranged and melee accuracy or they rolled it all into one stat thus normalizing the baseline accuracy the classes get.  That aside i'd still give the arbalest to my Rogue right now.

 

I'm just happy the combat log is finally starting to make sense.  I did kind of suspect last patch that armors had some sort of DT % reduction due to lore on mobs.  Still, would it be too much to ask to not have 1 handed weapons *not* totally suck .

 

Edit:

 

 

 

What base ranged damage does it have?

 

25 now I guess...

Edited September 26, 2014 by Razsius