Boys will be boys on the internet (<- sarcasm)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well, *-ism's are fairly nebulous, and I am skeptical of many that say it means one thing but in their practices it sure seems as if it means another.

Stow it, Gamer. Accept your feminist overlords.

[Namutree]

I tend to think that traditional feminism wants equal rights, but so do gender equalists or whatever they call themselves. The difference isn't the goal, but what they think the problem is. As far as I can tell; feminists seem to believe that men have a superior position in society, and women are being suppressed by men. The other camp seems to feel that neither gender is getting better treatment, but rather that both genders are equally shoe-horned into roles they may or may-not want to be in. 

 

They are like two doctors trying to heal a sick patient:

 

Both want the patient to be well, but they don't agree on what is causing the problem. Thus they come up with different solutions. Unfortunately, since the doctors disagree they have a bad habit of accusing the other of not wanting to solve the problem.

[BruceVC]

 

Well, *-ism's are fairly nebulous, and I am skeptical of many that say it means one thing but in their practices it sure seems as if it means another.

Stow it, Gamer. Accept your feminist overlords.

 

 

This type of comment is unhelpful to this debate, all it does is encourage more invective against the campaign for gender equality which is not the same thing that radical feminists believe. And radical feminists are really what most people are opposed to. Its never good to paint everyone with the same brush KP

[Malcador]

Stow it, Gamer. Accept your feminist overlords.

Nah, I prefer the term "misogynerd".

 

Its never good to paint everyone with the same brush KP

Hmmmm......

[Blarghagh]

 

 

What's your definition of the word feminist Malc?

Well from the name, it's an advocate for women. Usually the case anyway, though these days I am told it is to mean someone who wants "equal rights".

 

Okay well I'm glad you aren't  suggesting it means a hatred of men  or the marginalization of men. Please can you explain this to Volo, he will listen to you as you guys are both from Canada

 

 

 

Bruce, counter question:

 

Emmy-award winning indie developer Wolf Wozniak claims to have been sexually harassed by Zoe Quinn. He was viciously assaulted and harassed for making this claim by people self-identifying as feminists.

 

What do you think their definition of the word feminist is?

 

Well I know what the word means, it means where people believe in equal rights for women in the eyes of society and in the law. This is of course campaigned and implemented in different ways based on the individual case

 

I don't know about that Wolf Wozniak case, do you have a link?

 

 

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2014/09/wozniak3.png

 

It has been removed since, but the entire lead up and aftermath can be found here, up to the point where he apologizes for bringing it up.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E3BZP3PHeQE/U_qaRte_a1I/AAAAAAAAAr0/giIdTegX16w/s1600/zqsexualharassment.PNG

 

The problem with cases such as these is that they tend to get removed out of fear of (more) backlash.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

Well, *-ism's are fairly nebulous, and I am skeptical of many that say it means one thing but in their practices it sure seems as if it means another.

Stow it, Gamer. Accept your feminist overlords.

This type of comment is unhelpful to this debate, all it does is encourage more invective against the campaign for gender equality which is not the same thing that radical feminists believe. And radical feminists are really what most people are opposed to. Its never good to paint everyone with the same brush KP

And stuff like this....

 

And I agree about the truth being subjective for some, there are several people on this forum who are desperate to believe and convince themselves that the cause for gender equality isn't real and there aren't real instances of sexism and misogyny that exist in society and in gaming culture. So for example this article about Zoe Quinn and how she was victimised is automatically dismissed and excuses are made for how people treated her because it doesn't suit there narrative. Also despite the fact that " gamers" doesn't mean all gamers people just continue to give there own definition of the word and express "outrage" and "anger" . They aren't interested in the what the word really means

is?

 

You and your strawmen are hilarious. Suppose I can tell my friends I don't think there is any problems with equality because I think some internet activists are full of ****.

[Longknife]

You and your strawmen are hilarious.

 

 

This.

 

 

Bruce I think you mean well, but at the same time you seem to overreact to anyone simply not agreeing with a point made by a feminist. I mean name where excuses were made on behlaf of the people harassing her. If anything, the most common voice has been "she's irrelevant to the main issue anyways so I don't see why people bother harassing her."

 

   If I may...??

 

Why are you so passionate about the feminist movement? Why does it interest you so much? I don't mean that to sound like a pandering attitude, rather I'm merely curious about your backround and what your personal motivation is for liking and supporting the feminist side of things so loyally.  I mean, you aren't a woman. Not being a woman doesn't mean you can't show interest (I would show interest in supporting equality for gays, blacks, women and klingons, and I'm none of those) or support, but it does mean your reasoning isn't as straightforward as "it benefits me," thus I'm curious.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

regardless, we learned that the truth in such scenarios is almost irrelevant. many people who want to advance a cause will abandon truth when it is inconvenient.  again, one need not look very far on these boards to find similar examples.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That's a good story Gromnir and I'm also glad you  were cleared. I must say you do seem to have been exposed to some of the worst aspects of human nature, like when you use to  walk with your sister and protect her  after she was attacked at Varsity.  But generally you don't seem that jaded with humanity and that's an impressive character trait

 

 

 

 

am thinking you is having misrecollection of a Gromnir story. we were not particular close with our sister til after we went away to college. 

 

*shrug*

 

is various reasons. 

 

our sister lived in a place called rochdale in berkeley, a housing cooperative that is immediate adjacent to people's park. one night while returning from school, she were attacked by a homeless person in the park.  

 

am not certain what prompted us to bring up the story previous. could be any number o' reasons. most likely reason for sharing were having to do with how we realize women got a different perspective... women is forced to have a different pov. we went to berkeley and never once feared for our safety in the immediate environs o' the campus. in point o' fact, all Gromnir's tales o' misfortune from our time at Cal were occurring off-campus. our forensics team coach story happened at a nearby high school. our close-call with cops were actual in danville. when our sister considered attending Cal, we never gave her safety a second thought 'cause we mistaken used our own experience as a guide. 

 

statistics show that 1 in 4 women who attend college will suffer a sexual attack o' some kind, yes? am suspecting many folks has a sister story like ours, but don't even know they have such as their sister or mother or other close friend or relative is unlikely to share the details of such.

 

we actual got closer with our sister after her attack as we frequent visited her on weekends... after the fact. we were in southern CA doing our bfa and mfa work at the time, so those trips up the 101 or i-5 were exhausting, but we never regretted. 

 

am s'posing if you wanna tie this tangential sharing back into the thread, it can be a recognition that women is different and that they are forced to see the world different. particular in the westernized 21st century world wherein stuff such as upper body strength and other qualities that might aid in primitive hunting activities is largely irrelevant, it is easy to view women and men as equals. on a message board such as this, there is no reason to treat women different. nevertheless, women is different, and they got real world concerns that is different. is easy to forget, or ignore, the different.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blarghagh]

I believe the 1 in 4 claim has been debunked, being closer to 1 in 40. That's still way too much - that translates to 2,5% of women in college, and women in college is a huge group - but at least it's not 25%.

 

Still sucks about your sister getting attacked, though. As always, we should condemn all abuse.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

What's your definition of the word feminist Malc?

Well from the name, it's an advocate for women. Usually the case anyway, though these days I am told it is to mean someone who wants "equal rights".

 

Okay well I'm glad you aren't  suggesting it means a hatred of men  or the marginalization of men. Please can you explain this to Volo, he will listen to you as you guys are both from Canada

 

 

 

Bruce, counter question:

 

Emmy-award winning indie developer Wolf Wozniak claims to have been sexually harassed by Zoe Quinn. He was viciously assaulted and harassed for making this claim by people self-identifying as feminists.

 

What do you think their definition of the word feminist is?

 

Well I know what the word means, it means where people believe in equal rights for women in the eyes of society and in the law. This is of course campaigned and implemented in different ways based on the individual case

 

I don't know about that Wolf Wozniak case, do you have a link?

 

 

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2014/09/wozniak3.png

 

It has been removed since, but the entire lead up and aftermath can be found here, up to the point where he apologizes for bringing it up.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E3BZP3PHeQE/U_qaRte_a1I/AAAAAAAAAr0/giIdTegX16w/s1600/zqsexualharassment.PNG

 

The problem with cases such as these is that they tend to get removed out of fear of (more) backlash.

 

 

Thanks, I'll  go through it

 

 

And stuff like this....

 

And I agree about the truth being subjective for some, there are several people on this forum who are desperate to believe and convince themselves that the cause for gender equality isn't real and there aren't real instances of sexism and misogyny that exist in society and in gaming culture. So for example this article about Zoe Quinn and how she was victimised is automatically dismissed and excuses are made for how people treated her because it doesn't suit there narrative. Also despite the fact that " gamers" doesn't mean all gamers people just continue to give there own definition of the word and express "outrage" and "anger" . They aren't interested in the what the word really means

is?

 

You and your strawmen are hilarious. Suppose I can tell my friends I don't think there is any problems with equality because I think some internet activists are full of ****.

 

 

I'm missing your logic? I said to you that generalisations are unhelpful. In the post you quoted I used the word " several"  not "all", I am not generalising

 

That doesn't mean my post is directed at everyone., Your post about feminist overlords is just fatuous and cannot be substantiated by a rational mind. Its just done to get a reaction where people will say " yes those annoying feminist overlords...the nerve of them"

[Gromnir]

dunno. the cdc says the number is 19%. white house has used 1 in 5. more than a few women's groups says 1 in 4.  the debunking that took place regarding cdc numbers had to do with the cdc methodology.  14% were closer to genuine study results due to ignoring o' overlapping o' some o' their numbers. 

 

so conservative says 14% and women's groups says up-to 25%. by comparison, 2.5% is a bit off target.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

You and your strawmen are hilarious.

 

 

This.

 

 

Bruce I think you mean well, but at the same time you seem to overreact to anyone simply not agreeing with a point made by a feminist. I mean name where excuses were made on behlaf of the people harassing her. If anything, the most common voice has been "she's irrelevant to the main issue anyways so I don't see why people bother harassing her."

 

   If I may...??

 

Why are you so passionate about the feminist movement? Why does it interest you so much? I don't mean that to sound like a pandering attitude, rather I'm merely curious about your backround and what your personal motivation is for liking and supporting the feminist side of things so loyally.  I mean, you aren't a woman. Not being a woman doesn't mean you can't show interest (I would show interest in supporting equality for gays, blacks, women and klingons, and I'm none of those) or support, but it does mean your reasoning isn't as straightforward as "it benefits me," thus I'm curious.

 

 

I am a  liberal and due to the fact I grew up during Apartheid I have experienced first hand what happens when bigotry and discrimination become institutionalized. Its destroys people and severely impacts there dignity

 

So I am opposed to any form of bigotry that includes sexism, homophobia and racism. As far as sexism is concerned in the gaming industry I am not saying the entire industry needs to change and misogyny is rife  but there are  certain changes that should happen purely in the interest of  inclusivity. I don't think this means a paradigm shift in the development of all games but developers need to be aware of there entire fanbase. And many companies like Bioware and Obsidian are already aware of this and  ensure there games are inclusive to all demographics

[Blarghagh]

You may be correct, Gromnir. In any case, here's the source I listened to: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture

 

I believe Christina Sommers quoted the study sourced here in her recent "Feminist Myths" video as well. Supposedly the CDC study never even asked about sexual assault, instead it would ask a question about "having intercourse while inebriated (drunk, on drugs)" and if the respondant said yes, the CDC qualified it as sexual assault. As far as I could tell, the CDC study only had a 40% response rate among college students whereas the Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey (the study sourced in the article I posted) had an 80% response rate.

 

Either way, I'm not going to pretend I have read the studies myself so I'm taking their word for it. You're welcome to show me if I'm wrong, I can't debate properly if I'm misinformed so I'd like to know but at the same time I can't fact check everything.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm missing your logic? I said to you that generalisations are unhelpful. In the post you quoted I used the word " several" not "all", I am not generalising

I didn't say you were generalizing, I said you were making strawmen.

 

And I agree about the truth being subjective for some, there are several people on this forum who are desperate to believe and convince themselves that the cause for gender equality isn't real and there aren't real instances of sexism and misogyny that exist in society and in gaming culture. So for example this article about Zoe Quinn and how she was victimised is automatically dismissed and excuses are made for how people treated her because it doesn't suit there narrative. Also despite the fact that " gamers" doesn't mean all gamers people just continue to give there own definition of the word and express "outrage" and "anger" . They aren't interested in the what the word really means

This is a strawman. People aren't denying that sexism exists in society, they just don't like the armchair activists who want to preach to them about ethics. No one in this thread has said that harassing anyone is ok, pointing out that trolls harassing someone =/= a campaign of misogyny is not excusing the actions of trolls. At best you're being obtuse, at worst you're a troll.

 

Gamers does mean all gamers. Duh. If the folks who wrote the articles about how awful "gamers" are didn't mean all Gamers, they should have qualified their statements in the articles they appeared in. It isn't that hard to do.

 

That doesn't mean my post is directed at everyone., Your post about feminist overlords is just fatuous and cannot be substantiated by a rational mind. Its just done to get a reaction where people will say " yes those annoying feminist overlords...the nerve of them"

You're right, it was an over the top remark intended as a joke. I'm sure most would understand that, but I know you SJWs like to outrage first and think later.

[Gromnir]

You may be correct, Gromnir. In any case, here's the source I listened to: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture

 

I believe Christina Sommers quoted the study sourced here in her recent "Feminist Myths" video as well. Supposedly the CDC study never even asked about sexual assault, instead it would ask a question about "having intercourse while inebriated (drunk, on drugs)" and if the respondant said yes, the CDC qualified it as sexual assault. As far as I could tell, the CDC study only had a 40% response rate among college students whereas the Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey (the study sourced in the article I posted) had an 80% response rate.

 

Either way, I'm not going to pretend I have read the studies myself so I'm taking their word for it. You're welcome to show me if I'm wrong, I can't debate properly if I'm misinformed so I'd like to know but at the same time I can't fact check everything.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

 

is long, but worth a read. 

 

doj study is actual excellent, but if you read the linked pdf you will observe the differences in methodology. the ncvs is an extreme useful but necessarily blunt tool, which is precisely why the cdc took a different approach. go into randomn homes and ask 'bout crime in general with interviewers who don't specific know how to talk to sexual assault victims, people who is notoriously taciturn about their victimization, may lead to deflated results, no? is just one flaw in ncvs. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blarghagh]

Looks like that one was published far after the article I posted so I'm guessing this is a newer study. I'll give it a read, I checked out the questions posed and the methods and it seemed pretty sound to me on a glance so I guess yours is going on top of the list for now. Thanks for the link.

[Volourn]

"So I am opposed to any form of bigotry that includes sexism, homophobia and racism."

 

Unless that bigotry is towards white males, right? RIGHT.

[Gromnir]

Looks like that one was published far after the article I posted so I'm guessing this is a newer study. I'll give it a read, I checked out the questions posed and the methods and it seemed pretty sound to me on a glance so I guess yours is going on top of the list for now. Thanks for the link.

we had no argument with ncvs methodology when we first read it.  that being said, after reading the cdc linked study, we understand why a different approach were utilized. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

"So I am opposed to any form of bigotry that includes sexism, homophobia and racism."

 

Unless that bigotry is towards white males, right? RIGHT.

 

 

No Volo, I am opposed to any form of bigotry

[Volourn]

Then why do you continually state that you believe white male gamers are a bunch of rapists? So much so you try to twist the word 'gamer' to belittle little and make them out to be a bunch of scumbags who hate women which is NOT the case. Only bigots do that.

[BruceVC]

Then why do you continually state that you believe white male gamers are a bunch of rapists? So much so you try to twist the word 'gamer' to belittle little and make them out to be a bunch of scumbags who hate women which is NOT the case. Only bigots do that.

 

No Volo, that is not what I am saying

 

But I will say I think white, heterosexual males are the least most discriminated group in the world. I don't feel the need to defend this demographic because generally its unnecessary. Normally we aren't the targets of  hate groups or religious persecution, like the way gay people are targeted by some religious organisations

[Volourn]

So, you  admit to being a bigot. Okay.

[JadedWolf]

 

Then why do you continually state that you believe white male gamers are a bunch of rapists? So much so you try to twist the word 'gamer' to belittle little and make them out to be a bunch of scumbags who hate women which is NOT the case. Only bigots do that.

 

No Volo, that is not what I am saying

 

But I will say I think white, heterosexual males are the least most discriminated group in the world. I don't feel the need to defend this demographic because generally its unnecessary. Normally we aren't the targets of  hate groups or religious persecution, like the way gay people are targeted by some religious organisations

 

 

I think what you mean to say is that they are, outside of some countries in Africa, rarely discriminated against for being white. Discriminated against for being male? Could argue that being sent to another country to wage a war you had no interest in, or facing execution is something that happens to males a lot more than it does to females, but eh. In most of our countries that was a few generations ago, so let's let that slide.

 

People are often more than just white and male though, and they can certainly be discriminated against those other things which they also are. Because they have red hair, because they are short, because they have asthma and can't run very fast, because they like to play with trains, because they have an accent, because they are jewish, because they are catholic ... or protestant ... or atheist .... Ad infinitum.

 

So... Saying that white males are never discriminated against is just not very helpful.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Then why do you continually state that you believe white male gamers are a bunch of rapists? So much so you try to twist the word 'gamer' to belittle little and make them out to be a bunch of scumbags who hate women which is NOT the case. Only bigots do that.

 

No Volo, that is not what I am saying

 

But I will say I think white, heterosexual males are the least most discriminated group in the world. I don't feel the need to defend this demographic because generally its unnecessary. Normally we aren't the targets of  hate groups or religious persecution, like the way gay people are targeted by some religious organisations

 

 

I think what you mean to say is that they are, outside of some countries in Africa, rarely discriminated against for being white. Discriminated against for being male? Could argue that being sent to another country to wage a war you had no interest in, or facing execution is something that happens to males a lot more than it does to females, but eh. In most of our countries that was a few generations ago, so let's let that slide.

 

People are often more than just white and male though, and they can certainly be discriminated against those other things which they also are. Because they have red hair, because they are short, because they have asthma and can't run very fast, because they like to play with trains, because they have an accent, because they are jewish, because they are catholic ... or protestant ... or atheist .... Ad infinitum.

 

So... Saying that white males are never discriminated against is just not very helpful.

 

 

I would have thought my perspective would be obvious but its clear I need to explain further

 

Firstly I never said "white, males are never discriminated against ". I said they are the least  discriminated demographic in the world

 

So answer a few questions for me,

• How many anti-white supremacist groups do you know about ? Please list some groups that exist that explicitly state in there manifesto that the objectives are to ensure the survival of the  black race or for that matter any other race apart from the white race and they are fundamentally opposed to white males ? Even Al-Qaeda will accept white males who follow there religious doctrines
• Please list the countries that have outlawed heterosexual relationship and  where the death penalty exists for anyone engaging in  heterosexual relationships. This is the reality that gay people face in certain countries
• Please list the countries where men can't work or cant drive ? I can list countries where women have no rights whatsoever
• Please tell me  what countries in the world ban marriage  between a man a women and refuse to recognise these types of unions, these are the realities many gay people face who want to get married

I can continue to list examples but I think my point should be clear. When I say "white, heterosexual males are the least discriminated group in the world" I'm talking about the big picture in the world. Not just the gaming industry.

 

And I stand by my point that its an absurd suggestion that white males are generally the victims of discrimination and bigotry

 

We are not, we have it easy.

[Volourn]

"How many anti-white supremacist groups do you know about ?"

 

Feminists opposes white males.

 

SJW do.

 

The western courts do.

 

The Black Panthers do.

 

 

Just admit it. You have in the past. You hate white males and beleive they are all rapist bigots.