Capitalism & Socialism

[JadedWolf]

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

"I hate socialism, because the nazi's were socialists". Boom. Well, no one can disagree with hating the nazi's. Guess we all have to hate socialism too now. And since other people in this thread insist countries like Sweden are socialist, guess we have too hate them too now. Sorry Sweden.

[Namutree]

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

It can serve as a warning for how out of control socialism can get. It also helps demonstrate that the "Socialist care about the poor; the capitalists only care about the rich!" narrative is BS.

[JadedWolf]

 

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

It can serve as a warning for how out of control socialism can get. It also helps demonstrate that the "Socialist care about the poor; the capitalists only care about the rich!" narrative is BS.

 

 

Well, yeah, I really don't think that much debate is needed to come to that conclusion. We don't have to look at nazi Germany for that, we can just look at Venezuela. Both extreme socialism and extreme capitalism is bad, in my mind. You have to find a middle ground that everyone is happy with.

 

And no matter what, always keep an eye on the politicians. Even if they start off young and idealistic, before you know it they're cynical bastards who are merely acting out their part in order to get re-elected. And then it doesn't matter what ideology they profess.

[BruceVC]

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

"I hate socialism, because the nazi's were socialists". Boom. Well, no one can disagree with hating the nazi's. Guess we all have to hate socialism too now. And since other people in this thread insist countries like Sweden are socialist, guess we have too hate them too now. Sorry Sweden.

 

You sound like a Neo-Nazi Jadedmeister, are you a Neo-Nazi?

 

It wouldn't surprise me considering how much you hate minorities and don't want them to be represented in games

[JadedWolf]

 

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

"I hate socialism, because the nazi's were socialists". Boom. Well, no one can disagree with hating the nazi's. Guess we all have to hate socialism too now. And since other people in this thread insist countries like Sweden are socialist, guess we have too hate them too now. Sorry Sweden.

 

You sound like a Neo-Nazi Jadedmeister, are you a Neo-Nazi?

 

It wouldn't surprise me considering how much you hate minorities and don't want them to be represented in games

 

 

You know, Bruce, I am not sure if you're joking or serious at this point.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Honestly guys, even if we do accept that nazi Germany had some form of socialism, although underpinned by a completely different ideology, does that really tell you anything about current day social democrats? It's just such a weird argument, whatever way you spin it.

 

"I hate socialism, because the nazi's were socialists". Boom. Well, no one can disagree with hating the nazi's. Guess we all have to hate socialism too now. And since other people in this thread insist countries like Sweden are socialist, guess we have too hate them too now. Sorry Sweden.

 

You sound like a Neo-Nazi Jadedmeister, are you a Neo-Nazi?

 

It wouldn't surprise me considering how much you hate minorities and don't want them to be represented in games

 

 

You know, Bruce, I am not sure if you're joking or serious at this point.

 

 

I'm being very serious, only a Neo-Nazi wouldn't want minorities in games !!!!

 

 PS : The usage of  or  I thought indicates that a person is joking or teasing, so in other words of course I don't think you are a Neo-Nazi

[JadedWolf]

For the record, I have nothing against minorities in games, and I think it's a bit odd how you've come to that conclusion. But that's something for another discussion. If you really have that view of me, shoot me a PM and I will give you my actual views.

Edited September 20, 2014 by JadedWolf

[Namutree]

I never understood the term neo-nazi. Do they have glow in the dark uniforms or something?

[JadedWolf]

I never understood the term neo-nazi. Do they have glow in the dark uniforms or something?

 

Yes, yes - they do. Rather nice of them, because it makes it much easier to tell them apart.

 

Rather like neoclassicism, the decorative movement that drew its influences from the Ancients, but added glow in the dark columns for that extra effect.

[BruceVC]

For the record, I have nothing against minorities in games, and I think it's a bit odd how you've come to that conclusion. But that's something for another discussion. If you really have that view of me, shoot me a PM and I will give you my actual views.

 

Don't you think I'm funny, my mom doesn't think I'm funny and some of my g-friends don't think I'm funny. My sense of humour is definitely an acquired taste,  you should  meet me in person..I think you'll find me funny

[Orogun01]

 

For the record, I have nothing against minorities in games, and I think it's a bit odd how you've come to that conclusion. But that's something for another discussion. If you really have that view of me, shoot me a PM and I will give you my actual views.

 

Don't you think I'm funny, my mom doesn't think I'm funny and some of my g-friends don't think I'm funny. My sense of humour is definitely an acquired taste,  you should  meet me in person..I think you'll find me funny

 

You don't really come highly recommended.

[BruceVC]

 

 

For the record, I have nothing against minorities in games, and I think it's a bit odd how you've come to that conclusion. But that's something for another discussion. If you really have that view of me, shoot me a PM and I will give you my actual views.

 

Don't you think I'm funny, my mom doesn't think I'm funny and some of my g-friends don't think I'm funny. My sense of humour is definitely an acquired taste,  you should  meet me in person..I think you'll find me funny

 

You don't really come highly recommended.

 

 

 

 

Okay now you funny, I want to be funny like you

[Zoraptor]

No one I have ever seen says that the Nazi's are socialists just cuz' they don't like them. I call them socialist because:

 

A) They called themselves socialists.

Not because they regarded themselves as socialist though, it was a branding exercise entirely aimed at attractinglower socio economic people. And again, the socialist wing of the nsdap got liquidated faster than any other group. And again, Democratic People's Republic of Korea shows how what people call themselves has no relevance.

 

B) They opposed the concept of private property rights.

 

No they didn't. They were opposed in some circumstances based on being authoritarian and not wanting challenges to their power, and from being a racist and supremacist ideology. They were not philosophically or practically opposed except to those they didn't like for those other reasons. A rich Jew was at risk of having his stuff seized, a rich German- so long as he didn't rock the boat- was fine and could accumulate wealth to his heart's content.

 

(Somehow I expect I'm going to be told that authoritarianism is a fundamentally leftist tenet, Pinochet et alia be damned)

 

C) They heavily regulated industry's output and prices.

 

There ain't a single 'capitalist' society that doesn't do that, only the extent differs. Mostly with agriculture rather than industry, but there's tons of pork barrel politics everywhere. In any case though, that was primarily to do with nazis being authoritarian and running their economy on a permanent low grade war footing than being socialist.

[teknoman2]

i just want to make a clarification here, in case nobody said it already. comunism is not USSR! that was a military dictatorship, that used comunism as a front to keep people from rebeling. same goes for china, north korea and others

the teachings of Jesus were about comunism (he who has 2 robes, should offer 1 to whoever has none). comunism is about equaly sharing the work and the reward of that work, instead of having 1 guy collect 99% of the reward and the rest divide the remaining 1% while each did the same amount of work. unfortunatelly, the second is closer to the human nature, because in the end, all that matters to me is me and all that matters to you is you

Edited September 21, 2014 by teknoman2

[Namutree]

 

No one I have ever seen says that the Nazi's are socialists just cuz' they don't like them. I call them socialist because:

 

A) They called themselves socialists.

Not because they regarded themselves as socialist though, it was a branding exercise entirely aimed at attractinglower socio economic people. And again, the socialist wing of the nsdap got liquidated faster than any other group. And again, Democratic People's Republic of Korea shows how what people call themselves has no relevance.

 

B) They opposed the concept of private property rights.

 

No they didn't. They were opposed in some circumstances based on being authoritarian and not wanting challenges to their power, and from being a racist and supremacist ideology. They were not philosophically or practically opposed except to those they didn't like for those other reasons. A rich Jew was at risk of having his stuff seized, a rich German- so long as he didn't rock the boat- was fine and could accumulate wealth to his heart's content.

 

(Somehow I expect I'm going to be told that authoritarianism is a fundamentally leftist tenet, Pinochet et alia be damned)

 

C) They heavily regulated industry's output and prices.

 

There ain't a single 'capitalist' society that doesn't do that, only the extent differs. Mostly with agriculture rather than industry, but there's tons of pork barrel politics everywhere. In any case though, that was primarily to do with nazis being authoritarian and running their economy on a permanent low grade war footing than being socialist.

 

I think there is some confusion here. I am talking about what the Nazi's DID; not what Germany was like. Big difference. Since Germany wasn't a socialist country before the Nazi's took power socialism was being introduced gradually.

 

Many of the Nazi's had more than a bit of pro-socialist propaganda and they put some of their socialistic ideas into practiced. Yes, they didn't turn Germany into a 100% socialist society, but the trend was clear. They were moving the country into being more and more socialistic.

 

EDIT: Spelling errors!

Edited September 21, 2014 by Namutree

[Namutree]

i just want to make a clarification here, in case nobody said it already. comunism is not USSR! that was a military dictatorship, that used comunism as a front to keep people from rebeling. same goes for china, north korea and others

the teachings of Jesus were about comunism (he who has 2 robes, should offer 1 to whoever has none). comunism is about equaly sharing the work and the reward of that work, instead of having 1 guy collect 99% of the reward and the rest divide the remaining 1% while each did the same amount of work. unfortunatelly, the second is closer to the human nature, because in the end, all that matters to me is me and all that matters to you is you

I had already said that the USSR was not a fair representative of communism. I went so far as to guess that Karl Marx would have opposed the Soviet Union.

[Gorgon]

Germany was sorely in need of those socialist policies too, but that doesn't make the Nazis socialists.  We have those two different words  for a reason. 

 

The goal was to bring the economy on a war footing within 4 years. Socialist theory doesn't normally count on conquered countries paying the bill. Military spending is not usually seen as a socialist policy, although of course it contains tangible benifits for german arms manufacture, which was largely the point. 

[Namutree]

Germany was sorely in need of those socialist policies too, but that doesn't make the Nazis socialists.  We have those two different words  for a reason. 

 

What two different words?

[Gorgon]

Nazis and Socialists ?

[Gorgon]

By that logic Ronald Reagan would be a socialist. (military spending) I'm sure Reagan would call FDR one, FDR is in reality a democrat responding to a crisis (the first great depression). The devil is in the details. 

[Namutree]

By that logic Ronald Reagan would be a socialist. (military spending) I'm sure Reagan would call FDR one, FDR is in reality a democrat responding to a crisis (the first great depression). The devil is in the details. 

I wouldn't call the Nazi's socialists just because they increased military spending. It was there disregard for property rights that makes me think of them as socialists. If they thought price control was good for the country; they would implement them. If they thought some one's land should be seized by the state for some project; they just took it. No regard at all for the rights of property owners. 

 

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't consider Reagan a socialist, but he definitely isn't a capitalist.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Namutree

[Meshugger]

A lot of confusion in this thread could be averted if everyone read Shirer's book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

[Namutree]

A lot of confusion in this thread could be averted if everyone read Shirer's book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

What does the book say; that the Nazi's are capitalists, socialists, or neither?

[BruceVC]

 

A lot of confusion in this thread could be averted if everyone read Shirer's book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

What does the book say; that the Nazi's are capitalists, socialists, or neither?

 

 

You guys are all wrong, the Nazi's were fascists. I win 

[Namutree]

 

 

 

You guys are all wrong, the Nazi's were fascists. I win 

 

Got us. You magnificent bastard. I'm glad that's over. Discussing the Nazi's is tedious anyway. I prefer to compare capitalism & socialism at their core. It's more interesting than comparing the obviously flawed implementations of the past anyway.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Namutree