Namutree Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Yes, the subject. IF you want to say that a welfare state such as they exist in Western-Europe is socialist (which I don't really think constitutes socialism, but okay, let's accept that for debate's sake - I would personally say they have merely been influenced by ideas from socialist theory) then I don't see how you can say that socialism and capitalism are opposite ends of a spectrum. At best you can say that capitalism in these countries is limited, but it's like there is a single country in the world where there really exists such a thing as pure capitalism. If you would allow pure capitalism to reign, in the end you'd just replace the all powerful government you'd get in communism with an all powerful megacorp that'd you'd get in a purely capitalist world. The welfare state is as much socialist as it is capitalist, if you want to talk in such terms. The choice "Capitalism or Socialism" is much too simplistic. It's making things out to be black and white when there are many shades of grey. Between the different countries in Europe there are quite vast differences in how far they lean to either doing things collectively or putting the burden on the individual, and between allowing people choice or trying to protect people from themselves. When I think of Capitalism vs. Socialism; welfare isn't really my focus. When I think of socialism; I tend to think of the government controlling how people run their lives. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 ps that were our whole point about the real estate housing bubble bursting and the effect it had. many people viewed the equity in their home as an investment akin to a savings account, but better. those folks were correct until only a few years ago. your house has value. ignore the value o' a person's home would be a rather suspect approach to determining the person's overall net worth. say a person is not a millionaire but ignore the $500k equity they got in the crakerjack box sized condo they own would be odd. HA! Good Fun! You may come up with any conclusions you like. It could be from real estate, it could be from 401k, it could be from rare artwork, it could be from drug dealing, it could be from a prostitution ring, it could be from a prostitution ring where the hookers bring you drugs. Im going to take the article at face value: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". I was 1 of the 24 Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) ps that were our whole point about the real estate housing bubble bursting and the effect it had. many people viewed the equity in their home as an investment akin to a savings account, but better. those folks were correct until only a few years ago. your house has value. ignore the value o' a person's home would be a rather suspect approach to determining the person's overall net worth. say a person is not a millionaire but ignore the $500k equity they got in the crakerjack box sized condo they own would be odd. HA! Good Fun! You may come up with any conclusions you like. It could be from real estate, it could be from 401k, it could be from rare artwork, it could be from drug dealing, it could be from a prostitution ring, it could be from a prostitution ring where the hookers bring you drugs. Im going to take the article at face value: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". is irrelevant where and how the wealth is created in the present context. many wall street folks went bankrupt and suffered foreclosures o' their homes in past few years. making your home your primary investment were a common if foolish practice in hindsight. you wanted to discount the value of equity in home as part o' determination o' millionaire status. were an odd pov. how revenue is generated and who in NY benefits is an interesting question, but it is still largely irrelevant. we got a friend that lives in the same building where liz lemon, the character from the 30 rock tv show, s'posed lives. we didn't think the place were particular special when we visited him. http://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/riverside-dr-west-end-ave/160-riverside-drive/1058 two-bedroom apartments in that building go for $1,850,000. HA! Good Fun! Edited September 17, 2014 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 All of this is irrelevant since we will soon be moving towards a non-scarcity based economical model. As soon as our new overlords get here....any day now. 1 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 you wanted to discount the value of equity in home as part o' determination o' millionaire status. No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonymous Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 making your home your primary investment were a common if foolish practice in hindsight. No. Building your business around the predatory loans that were given to people that couldn't possibly pay them off was foolish; your home is the best investment you can possibly make as it's really an investment in yourself and your quality of life. The question that needs to be asked is what is so bad about nationalizing the "too big to fail" banks and using the profits to pay for the houses that were foreclosed on to keep people in their houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) The question that needs to be asked is what is so bad about nationalizing the "too big to fail" banks and using the profits to pay for the houses that were foreclosed on to keep people in their houses? 1: The government is incredibly incompetent and would make no profits. 2: It would be a brazen act of theft that would kill the stock market since investors wouldn't know which industries are safe from nationalization. 3: Why should the government keep down the good actors in the economy. Not all banks were the bad guys, and they deserved a chance to advance in the place of banks like AIG & others. Nationalization is like the bailouts, but even worse. 4: The extreme unconstitutionality of such an act would cause a major national crisis. One far worse than the recession. 5: Like all services of the government the new state run banks would be politicized; that can be very destructive. Edited September 17, 2014 by Namutree "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barothmuk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) When I think of Capitalism vs. Socialism; welfare isn't really my focus. When I think of socialism; I tend to think of the government controlling how people run their lives.Not to be mean but that's pretty ****ing dumb. By this logic the Republicans are being "socialist" for trying to restrict women from getting abortions or opposing gay marriage. When determining capitalism or socialism you look at the economy not vague notions of "the government controlling people's lives". Edited September 17, 2014 by Barothmuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 you wanted to discount the value of equity in home as part o' determination o' millionaire status. No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". actually, you said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." started here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68579-capitalism-socialism/?p=1510334 reread as you seem to have forgotten. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 you wanted to discount the value of equity in home as part o' determination o' millionaire status. No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". actually, you said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." started here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68579-capitalism-socialism/?p=1510334 reread as you seem to have forgotten. HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 you can repeat that ad infinitum that you didn't say what you did, but review thread, AND we actual posted your quote: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 When I think of Capitalism vs. Socialism; welfare isn't really my focus. When I think of socialism; I tend to think of the government controlling how people run their lives.Not to be mean but that's pretty ****ing dumb. By this logic the Republicans are being "socialist" for trying to restrict women from getting abortions or opposing gay marriage. When determining capitalism or socialism you look at the economy not vague notions of "the government controlling people's lives". I have thought of republicans as socialists many times for both of those things. Abortion is especially important as it lies at the very center of property rights. If the government can control your body; can you really own anything? Marriage is an expansion of property rights; by opposing gay marriage, they are opposing the expansion of private property rights. There is a reason virtually everyone who calls themselves a capitalist are for gay marriage. I think you are getting us confused with conservatives. The authoritarian buffoons who call themselves conservatives, but push that Judeo-Christian nonsense aren't capitalists. They are something different entirely. They certainly don't give a crap about private property. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 you can repeat that ad infinitum that you didn't say what you did, but review thread, AND we actual posted your quote: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barothmuk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I have thought of republicans as socialists many times for both of those things.Oh god...Abortion is especially important as it lies at the very center of property rights.Wat. Are you under the impression a woman's body constitutes private property? Do you know what private property means? If the government can control your body; can you really own anything?Umm, yes? Are you under the impression that the wealthy industrialists 100 years prior were poor oppressed folk with no property because the government didn't allow gay marriage. There is a reason virtually everyone who calls themselves a capitalist are for gay marriage.This thread man. This thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shallow Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 There are far better ways to fix the banking system than nationalization, governments are just to bought out by bankers to do them. A. Inform the people that fractional reserve banking is badly broken, and that banks rely on more money being put in them than will ever be withdrawn at one point, they only have to be capable of providing a tiny sum of that money, after the initial fallout of all banks going bankrupt people will probably try out less prone to blowing up forms of banking. B. When a bank goes bankrupt, anyone earning more than a very minor percentage of the companies money, should be stripped of a very significant portion of that money to compensate the people who had money in the bank, this way we won't have banks declaring bankruptcy with everyone running them still being rich. C. Don't bail out banks, buy them out, if a company gets the government money check, they have no right to cry about big government oppressing them, if we absolutely have to give banks money for the sake of our countries not blowing up in our faces (personally I believe the companies can go to hell even if it means we all starve to death), we should force them to adopt whatever policies we want. The end goal should also be either slowly destroying the bank in a safe and proper manner as responsibly as possible, or earning back what we lost and then letting it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 All of this is irrelevant since we will soon be moving towards a non-scarcity based economical model. As soon as our new overlords get here....any day now. I am looking forward to this moment. Come, Overlords! Come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Abortion is especially important as it lies at the very center of property rights.Wat. Are you under the impression a woman's body constitutes private property? Do you know what private property means People's bodies are personal property, and yes; I know what private property means. Are you under the impression that the wealthy industrialists 100 years prior were poor oppressed folk with no property because the government didn't allow gay marriage. No. How could they be wealthy AND poor? They did however, have less property rights than they could have. If they would have been allowed to enter homosexual marriages they would have more financial options would they not? Marriage is a financial institution. It's an institution that is capitalistic and it's expansion is an expansion of capitalism. Those who oppose it's expansion are acting against capitalism. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 All of this is irrelevant since we will soon be moving towards a non-scarcity based economical model. As soon as our new overlords get here....any day now. I am looking forward to this moment. Come, Overlords! Come! The spacecraft was delayed. We have to wait a few more months. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barothmuk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 People's bodies are personal property, and yes; I know what private property means.Thus you realise this has absolutely nothing to do with the socialist's opposition to private property and thus opposition to abortion has little to do with socialism, yes? No. How could they be wealthy AND poor?Evidently these government restrictions made their property null. Worthless. Can't own anything if the "government's controlling your body". They did however, have less property rights than they could have.From what I gather you seem to be under the impression support for property in any form is "capitalist" and to deprive others of property in any form is to be anti-capitalist. This rationale is exceptionally fallacious because the overwhelming majority of people (the "99%" if you will) do not have private property. Does this mean capitalism is anti-capitalist for depriving these people of property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." from your link: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html home and real estate ownership is a major factor. regardless, what you actual said were: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." and this were in response to multiple posters observing that ny real estate ownership would inflate numbers. again, 'cause you seem bent on repeating, you said: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." you were inexplicably reluctant to work real estate ownership into the equation. weird. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." from your link: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html home and real estate ownership is a major factor. regardless, what you actual said were: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." and this were in response to multiple posters observing that ny real estate ownership would inflate numbers. again, 'cause you seem bent on repeating, you said: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." you were inexplicably reluctant to work real estate ownership into the equation. weird. HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." from your link: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html home and real estate ownership is a major factor. regardless, what you actual said were: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." and this were in response to multiple posters observing that ny real estate ownership would inflate numbers. again, 'cause you seem bent on repeating, you said: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." you were inexplicably reluctant to work real estate ownership into the equation. weird. HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". actual quote: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 *chuckle* should you not chastise yourself for spam? largest single investment an ordinary american typically has is in their home, which is REAL ESTATE investment, a point you were fighting against in numerous posts. scroll-up. and again, you actual said, "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." from your link: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html home and real estate ownership is a major factor. regardless, what you actual said were: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." and this were in response to multiple posters observing that ny real estate ownership would inflate numbers. again, 'cause you seem bent on repeating, you said: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." you were inexplicably reluctant to work real estate ownership into the equation. weird. HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". actual quote: "None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated"." HA! Good Fun! No. I was simply stating that: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated". "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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