Pumping MIGHT, CON, and DEX? You're playing it wrong!

[Ink Blot]

Okay, tongue firmly in cheek with regard to the topic title, but here's a thought that has occurred to me over the past few days when considering different aspects of the game and the beta:

 

- in convo checks, your main character's stats are the only ones the game looks at. Companion stats don't matter. What does this mean? Well, it appears to mean that if you really want to have any hope of passing those moderate to high PER/INT/RES checks, you need to build a character with high stats in those areas. This means moderate to low in the 'combat' stats. Good thing or bad?

 

- so you want to be able to open all or most of the options in the conversation trees, and this means a 'weaker' combat character. But you can build your own companions to hire later. That's where you build your combat specialist, I guess.

 

So you want to build a good, effective, strong Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian etc. as your main, but you also want to be able to handle the convo trees? Good luck with that. I'm obviously making some big assumptions here based on the limited amount we've seen in the beta. But taking that as an indicator, I'm thinking the player is pretty much pigeonholed into building a character that's weaker in the combat stats unless they want to just forget about being able to navigate most of the extra options in the convo trees.

 

But this may not be a big deal since, other than gaining a bit more marginally useful information, in the beta there doesn't seem to be a huge advantage to running through the extra options opened up by the convo checks.

 

And for those of you wondering: No, I don't want to be able to do everything with a single character, but I would like to be able to do almost everything with the entire party. If the game only looks at the main's stats in convos with NPCs, I don't see how that's going to be possible unless you build your main as the 'diplomat'.

 

Any thoughts? (Hopefully I've gotten the gist of my point across)

[wanderon]

I think you are correct that you need to pump those stats to be "the diplomat" and get to use all those extra conversation options but I'm not sure that means you can't still be a viable Paladin, fighter, barbarian type.

 

Obviously you can't be as "strong" as one who dumps the diplomat line but I'm getting the feeling from the beta that a character with middle of the road stats may still be quite viable.

[Ink Blot]

I think you are correct that you need to pump those stats to be "the diplomat" and get to use all those extra conversation options but I'm not sure that means you can't still be a viable Paladin, fighter, barbarian type.

 

Obviously you can't be as "strong" as one who dumps the diplomat line but I'm getting the feeling from the beta that a character with middle of the road stats may still be quite viable.

Good point, but it seems to me that you're pretty much pointed in the direction of making a middle of the road character with the way the game works right now.

[prodigydancer]

This means moderate to low in the 'combat' stats. Good thing or bad?

Depends on how much mandatory combat we'll see in the final game. With no XP for kills... if, say, 90% of encounters are skippable, then pumping combat stats may be precisely what "doing it wrong" means.

Edited September 7, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Matt516]

Good thread, nice points.

 

2 counterpoints:

 

1) PER/INT/RES are not the only stats used in conversations. Theoretically, all 6 of the stats should be used in conversations to some degree, such as Intimidate (MIG), Act Quickly (DEX), and... yeah I dunno what CON would be used for. But it could be used for something. Anyway, I find the suggestion that PER/INT/RES are the "primary conversation" stats to be suspect - there's no reason the other 3 stats can't be used for something in conversations, and I believe that they will.

 

2) Thinking of PER/INT/RES as "non-combat" stats is also wonky to me. Yes, PER and RES are vastly underpowered in combat right now (inc thread from Sensuki and I on how to fix that), and OE has acknowledged this and plans to do something to fix it. INT is also a combat stat, just not directly related to dps or survivability. But in any case, all the stats are supposed to be "combat" stats. The fact that they aren't is indicative of a problem with the stat system atm, not a foregone conclusion.

 

So I guess TL;DR is... your thread is more suitable as a "here's what's wrong right now" thread than a "this is how it will be in the end" thread. All 6 stats should be viable both in and out of combat. The BB is limited in scope, so my first point may not be addressed in it (though I'd expect it to be in the main game), and my second point has already been acknowledged as a problem by OE and will hopefully be fixed. In the end, if OE does their jobs right, you should be able to build whatever kind of character you want and play the game the way they would play it. So if being witty in conversations is important to you, yeah you'll probably want to up PER and INT - but that'll be you playing a smart character. If you play a dumber character with other strengths, I'd expect that they will be able to solve conversation problems in different (but equally viable) ways.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Matt516

[Ink Blot]

Awesome post, Matt516! This is why I threw this thread onto the boards: to try to get my thinking cleared up, and to see things from a different angle. You've resolved a lot of it in this one post. Yeah, I can see how they could use the other attributes in convos, and hopefully that's what we'll see.

 

As to the 'non combat' stats: that's actually not really how I think of them, it was just a way to categorize how differently those three (perhaps with the exception of INT) look in the current build.

 

So, yeah, your post: /Thread as far as I'm concerned. Kudos.

[prodigydancer]

a combat stat, just not directly related to dps or survivability.

Don't you see what's wrong with this statement?

[Matt516]

 

a combat stat, just not directly related to dps or survivability.

Don't you see what's wrong with this statement?

 

 

Not really. AoE and Duration are huge in combat (especially Duration). They just can't be purely broken down into damage or health. The combat system has enough depth for there to be considerations other than "am I making their numbers go down faster than mine are going down". Or to put it a better way, that's still the ultimate goal of combat but there's enough depth for there to be all sorts of ways to do it. So no, I don't think there's anything wrong with that statement.

[Matt516]

Awesome post, Matt516! This is why I threw this thread onto the boards: to try to get my thinking cleared up, and to see things from a different angle. You've resolved a lot of it in this one post. Yeah, I can see how they could use the other attributes in convos, and hopefully that's what we'll see.

 

As to the 'non combat' stats: that's actually not really how I think of them, it was just a way to categorize how differently those three (perhaps with the exception of INT) look in the current build.

 

So, yeah, your post: /Thread as far as I'm concerned. Kudos.

 

Haha thanks!

[nipsen]

..actually, it seems that if you play a complete brute, you have a couple of role-playing options that are exclusive to you, and favor the stats you've picked.

 

(By the way - have had some success with that dex/int/perception based fighter build. Has a laughably high critical range, and can entertain 4 enemies at a time with superior dodge and resistance with the talents and so on. Plus that he interrupts spells, and stabs (and hits) things trying to get past him. So, traded base damage and damage treshold for higher critical range, better dodge, and increased attack speed/recovery, extra skills, different dialogue options, and so on.

 

Only problem seems to be that the game tends to teleport enemies behind me if I haven't actively engaged them when they arrive. Pretty sure there's something going on there that complicates things for soak-builds as well. In that you're probably not actually meant to be pounded for a full round before hitting back.)

[Matt516]

Yeah, they need to fix the teleporting enemies bug. Makes proper positional play kind of pointless.

[Azrael Ultima]

 

a combat stat, just not directly related to dps or survivability.

Don't you see what's wrong with this statement?

 

Yes. Your perspective. Combat is more than just hitting things hard enough that they die faster than you.

[Karkarov]

Well one of the core design concepts behind the stats is that there are no stats that are useless outside of combat and there there are no stats that are useless for combat.  So yeah, expect some shifting about.

 

That being said I don't think any front liner should ignore Resolve, that interrupt resistance is very nice for a tank.

[Qiushui]

 

And for those of you wondering: No, I don't want to be able to do everything with a single character, but I would like to be able to do almost everything with the entire party. If the game only looks at the main's stats in convos with NPCs, I don't see how that's going to be possible unless you build your main as the 'diplomat'.

I don't see how this (the PC being the ONE checked in all convos) is a problem. So play the game again with a different build and get different options the second time. I guess people hate replay value?

[Ink Blot]

 

I don't see how this (the PC being the ONE checked in all convos) is a problem. So play the game again with a different build and get different options the second time. I guess people hate replay value?

 

No, I love replay value. You missed my point (or, more likely, I just expressed it badly). My point was, it looked like you'd only get convo options aimed at very specific stats, not spread out over the whole array. In other words, it was looking like if you didn't have high PER/RES/INT, you wouldn't get many extra convo options at all, which meant you wouldn't have any replay value unless you wanted to skip all the roleplay opportunities on your subsequent run and build a combat-oriented character. But this was rendered moot by Matt's point in the 5th post in the thread. I don't often jump the gun and make assumptions, but in this case it looks like I did. Egregiously. But after playing the beta over and over, it began to seem like there were only a very limited range of character stats that were going to offer anything extra to the player.

[LordFess]

Now I understand why it doesn't matter which character starts conversations..... I thought it strange that the nearest character would initiate conversation.

Edited September 8, 2014 by LordFess

[Hiro Protagonist II]

No, I love replay value. You missed my point (or, more likely, I just expressed it badly). My point was, it looked like you'd only get convo options aimed at very specific stats, not spread out over the whole array. In other words, it was looking like if you didn't have high PER/RES/INT, you wouldn't get many extra convo options at all, which meant you wouldn't have any replay value unless you wanted to skip all the roleplay opportunities on your subsequent run and build a combat-oriented character. But this was rendered moot by Matt's point in the 5th post in the thread. I don't often jump the gun and make assumptions, but in this case it looks like I did. Egregiously. But after playing the beta over and over, it began to seem like there were only a very limited range of character stats that were going to offer anything extra to the player.

 

 

I've seen at least one Might dialogue option in the Beta as well as Per, Int and Res. There may be a Dex dialogue option but I don't recall, but will probably be in the final game. Con seems to be the only one that's out of place. It may be in the final game though to balance^TM everything out so there's no dump stats even in dialogue choices.

 

If the game's design with it's flaws will be the same in the final game as it's in the Beta and going by the lack of meaningful and bizarre responses of late from Obsidian (Josh), I'll just edit my stats via a save game editor and bump them up to get all the dialogue options. I'll probably play it once and that's it as I can't see myself replaying this. It really depends on how the final product will ship.

[Ink Blot]

If the game's design with it's flaws will be the same in the final game as it's in the Beta and going by the lack of meaningful and bizarre responses of late from Obsidian (Josh), I'll just edit my stats via a save game editor and bump them up to get all the dialogue options. I'll probably play it once and that's it as I can't see myself replaying this. It really depends on how the final product will ship.

 

Can't argue with that.

 

 

I don't recall the Might option in the convo trees. I'll have to do another run...

[Fiebras]

The PER/INT/RES options Ive seen (Blood Legacy, Wurm Slayers, Ogre) have all been decently crafted and seem geared towards you not needing a combat build.

 

Using high INT option with the Ogre lets you avoid combat so theres not that much need for a full on specialized combat build there, which is nice since fighting the Ogre is a challenge best suited for combat-oriented builds.

The wurm slayer wizard thats meant to flee when you use the INT option regarding drake eggs doesnt actually flee as of yet and still fights you but the intent of making the fight easier through INT is there.

PER/INT/RES in the Blood Legacy quest are more geared towards giving you more information to solve the mystery and some world lore which is pretty nice but that quest has all manner of ways of being solved not dependant on stats but on player exploration as it is and the way of having high mechanics (10 mechanics to avoid almost all combat, 7 to only have to do half the temple) is the fastest way of solving it, though you miss out on combat loot so its not "the best" method if you want loot but it is "the best" method if you care more about finishing it faster or avoiding combat.

 

So if I were to use the examples Ive seen so far to judge the final game Id say PER/INT/RES builds would end up being more diplomatic and geared towards avoiding combat or making combat easier through dialouge options so you wouldnt really be "gimping yourself" by going a dialouge-stat-heavy build.

 

And even a dialouge-stat heavy build is still useful in combat its just th you wont be a meathead bashing skulls but a ranged character that makes use of INT/RES/PER like a Cipher, a Ranger, a Wizard, a non-melee Priest, a ranged Paladin, a Chanter, or whatever really. Not everything needs to be about autoattack DPS and the game so far seems flexible enough to acomodate those options.

Also, MIG/CON/DEX options kinda have their dialouge options. They are the default ones. Though Im sure they will get some options as well, just not in every quest or conversation as that might get silly.

 

Heres hoping the rest of the quests and areas are as well or better designed than the ones in the beta.

 

EDIT: Also for things like Mechanics and Stealth you have Party members that are taken into consideration for regular play and certain events like the Dragon Egg. So its not that you gotta have 100 in every stat.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Fiebras

[constantine]

In response to the topic  . . . . .

 

 

Good thread, nice points.

 

2 counterpoints:

 

1) PER/INT/RES are not the only stats used in conversations. Theoretically, all 6 of the stats should be used in conversations to some degree, such as Intimidate (MIG), Act Quickly (DEX), and... yeah I dunno what CON would be used for. But it could be used for something. Anyway, I find the suggestion that PER/INT/RES are the "primary conversation" stats to be suspect - there's no reason the other 3 stats can't be used for something in conversations, and I believe that they will.

 

2) Thinking of PER/INT/RES as "non-combat" stats is also wonky to me. Yes, PER and RES are vastly underpowered in combat right now (inc thread from Sensuki and I on how to fix that), and OE has acknowledged this and plans to do something to fix it. INT is also a combat stat, just not directly related to dps or survivability. But in any case, all the stats are supposed to be "combat" stats. The fact that they aren't is indicative of a problem with the stat system atm, not a foregone conclusion.

 

So I guess TL;DR is... your thread is more suitable as a "here's what's wrong right now" thread than a "this is how it will be in the end" thread. All 6 stats should be viable both in and out of combat. The BB is limited in scope, so my first point may not be addressed in it (though I'd expect it to be in the main game), and my second point has already been acknowledged as a problem by OE and will hopefully be fixed. In the end, if OE does their jobs right, you should be able to build whatever kind of character you want and play the game the way they would play it. So if being witty in conversations is important to you, yeah you'll probably want to up PER and INT - but that'll be you playing a smart character. If you play a dumber character with other strengths, I'd expect that they will be able to solve conversation problems in different (but equally viable) ways.

 

 

. . . . . Matt516 covered me !

 

 

But I'd also like to add that it's nice to try and role-play than seeing all from a technical viewpoint. Think of a character & create her with flaws and strong points alike, then see what this playthrough has to offer.

 

 

.

.

.

 

That's how 'I' would enjoy playing the game.

Edited September 8, 2014 by constantine

[Ink Blot]

 

But I'd also like to add that it's nice to try and role-play than seeing all from a technical viewpoint. Think of a character & create her with flaws and strong points alike, then see what this playthrough has to offer.

 

 

.

.

.

 

That's how 'I' would enjoy playing the game.

I don't want to get into a drawn out "This is how you properly roleplay" debate, but I disagree. The two are not mutually exclusive (if this is not what you meant, then my apologies) When I play an RPG, I like to know the mechanics of the game so I can make the most effective character possible. I like to play my characters as completely exceptional as compared to the regular denizens of the game world that have no or as few flaws as possible. The technical viewpoint determines how I build my characters. The opportunities that arise during the game determine how I roleplay them. The more options I can open up with my character's build (stats, skills, talents, etc), the more choice I have in how I roleplay him. To each their own though.