Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[Namutree]

I noticed I can now zoom in/out with the - and + keys! Just like the IE games! Good job Obsidian! Keep it up.

 

Also, it seems they've changed the spells on my spell casters and it got me killed. No big deal though; I'll just need to get used to these new spells. 

[DCParry]

About the nudity: Could Obsidian please add some default clothing beyond the cloth scraps currently in the game? It's really creepy watching what looks like mounds of flesh-colored wood shavings running around on the screen.

 

Prude! What are you ashamed of the pixelated beauty of the humanoid body! Glorify in it!

[Jon of the Wired]

I don't think it's necessarily a problem for characters off the front-line to wear clothing instead of armor. Wizards have been wearing robes forever. I do think back-line characters should be under enough threat that it's not crazy to consider putting them in light armor, and I think that can be accomplished through encounter design and better enemy AI. For front-line characters, the current system makes choosing armor weight a choice between specializing in damage output or defense (or achieving balance between the two), and I think that's a totally reasonable way of handling things. The numbers may need tweaking, but I think the concept is sound.

 

One thing I'm concerned about is how DT interacts with fast, low-damage weapons. I think the idea is good in theory, but for light weapons to have a place they need to do significantly more damage against lightly armored enemies than heavier weapons and there needs to be enough lightly armored enemies, even at high levels, so that light weapons are viable throughout the whole game. Otherwise there's just no point in ever using them.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jon of the Wired

[Cantousent]

Sadly, I haven't read the whole thread, which I'll admit now.  I'm going to contribute my opinion and where it overlaps with other views, take it as supportive.

 

I didn't want to get too far into the beta at first, but folks kept saying that it wouldn't spoil the game.  When I did first start it, I thought combat was clunky and it was hard to get into it, but that's usually true of most RPGs for me.  RPGs require more from the player than most other games.  It's not just learning the ropes for combat, but getting into the setting and developing a feel for the characters and whatnot.  This is especially hard in a beta, particularly if the devs keep out the juicy stuff soas not to spoil the fun for folks who don't want to get into the juicy stuff until the full product ships.

 

After the beta patch I started again.  Unlike before, I'm using my spells and developing tactics.  I'm really getting into it now.  I probably won't play anything other than normal for the beta, but the battles are fun right now.  I won't play like a murderous wretch in the full game, but to get a feel for combat I killed Nyfre and her mooks as well as Medreth and his thugs.  Then I killed off a bunch of beetles and then a bunch of cultists.  I appreciated the various ways of getting into the ruins.  I have not been more optimistic about the game as I am right now.  It has warts, but it's coming together.

[Namutree]

Been playing the beta some more. It seems like I have less hp than before. Strange. Also, the trash mobs are somehow even more tedious than before. Either the beetles need less hp, or they need to give us more health. No matter what the fighter needs more health. I don't want to be going back and forth to use the inn every other fight.

[Ink Blot]

Been playing the beta some more. It seems like I have less hp than before. Strange. Also, the trash mobs are somehow even more tedious than before. Either the beetles need less hp, or they need to give us more health. No matter what the fighter needs more health. I don't want to be going back and forth to use the inn every other fight.

Is the issue that they' need fewer HPs, or is the poison from the beetles taking your fighter out?

[Namutree]

 

Been playing the beta some more. It seems like I have less hp than before. Strange. Also, the trash mobs are somehow even more tedious than before. Either the beetles need less hp, or they need to give us more health. No matter what the fighter needs more health. I don't want to be going back and forth to use the inn every other fight.

Is the issue that they' need fewer HPs, or is the poison from the beetles taking your fighter out?

 

Both really. The fights take too long and the enemies can dish out too much damage because they take too long to kill. Reducing their hp kills two birds with one stone.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

One thing I'm concerned about is how DT interacts with fast, low-damage weapons. I think the idea is good in theory, but for light weapons to have a place they need to do significantly more damage against lightly armored enemies than heavier weapons and there needs to be enough lightly armored enemies, even at high levels, so that light weapons are viable throughout the whole game. Otherwise there's just no point in ever using them.

 

And that's a bad thing? That you can upgrade to better weapons instead of continuing to use your 'viable' butter knife against enemies near the end of the game? Please no, none of this making everything viable balancing philosophy.

 

Been playing the beta some more. It seems like I have less hp than before. Strange. Also, the trash mobs are somehow even more tedious than before. Either the beetles need less hp, or they need to give us more health. No matter what the fighter needs more health. I don't want to be going back and forth to use the inn every other fight.

 

The beetles are like armored tanks. I thought they were too big but appears to be to scale going by the concept artwork. Very much not the same beetles from IWD. However, they still carry the concept of trash mobs imo. I know it's a beta^TM but I would expect better loot from them in the final game with going up against an armoured tank. If they're still the same trash mobs in the final game, then I'll probably avoid them as much as I can. Crafting supplies might be a goal and I'll obviously come across some on the most optimal route on these maps and get some of their shells, but the incentive to go after more of them isn't there for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sensuki]

Be cool if you could make an Adra Beetle Shell Shield

[Cantousent]

I've now gone through several groups of cultists without resting.  I'm sure that wouldn't be exactly feasible on hard, but I don't care.  I always run every game on normal to get a feel for the 'baseline' gameplay.  I thought resting would be more of a burden going by what I'd read.  However, combat still feels... weird.  It's enjoyable, especially as I'm using spells and making choices that work out, but my party's health keeps ticking down and I'm running out of people who can realistically tank.  I created a wizard, who is sadly inferior to the generic wizard, partly because he doesn't have as many spells and, frankly, because I was ignorant of spells I would most need.  I hired a paladin who has come in handy for healing and can tank decently also.  The fighter is the best tank by far, and I often end up running like hell with someone who's getting the chop.  The beetles, as it seems to me, are tougher than the cultist, but the cultist are far more ubiquitous.  Anyhow, still clearing out this ruins place.  I found a place to use the grappling hook but I'm saving it until everything else is cleared.

[Namutree]

Been playing even more. I carelessly walked around a bit and my team was killed by beetles. This game was supposed to be about as hard as BG2, but right now I'd say it's at least twice as difficult. It's going to be hard to enjoy exploration if I can't let my guard down for even a second while trying to explore. Also, I've noticed they changed healing and it's made things even harder. 

 

These enemies really need to be toned down.

 

Not sure if this is just for the beta, but the areas seem to be even more dense with enemies.

[Justinian]

Been playing even more. I carelessly walked around a bit and my team was killed by beetles. This game was supposed to be about as hard as BG2, but right now I'd say it's at least twice as difficult. It's going to be hard to enjoy exploration if I can't let my guard down for even a second while trying to explore. Also, I've noticed they changed healing and it's made things even harder. 

 

These enemies really need to be toned down.

 

Not sure if this is just for the beta, but the areas seem to be even more dense with enemies.

 

 

I agree. Too dense with mobs both in overworld and dungeons. There's little feeling of exploring a "place". Not enough scale or distance between encounters, and therefore little to no pacing. I hope this is just a beta thing, where the've crammed as many enemy types and encounters in as possible to make the most of the maps.

[Sensuki]

It's a combination of really small maps, larger character and creature sizes, fast movement speed and the Health damage ratio being wrong.

Combination of the above totally ruins the wilderness exploration feel

 

Oddly enough it makes it feel more like an Icewind Dale 2 map. Icewind Dale 2 did a lot of things way worse than the BGs/IWD so it's not a good example to follow in many cases.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Zierry]

Curious: has anyone had issues with crashes/corrupted saves in this build? I had an issue in a game last night where I couldn't loot a drop from the wizard at the dragon's nest. Loaded that game up this morning and it froze/crashed. Tried again and couldn't turn in the quest to Hendyna. Wiped the saves, and restarted Steam. I'll see if it makes a difference. I reported it in the bug thread, but was wondering if anyone has had similar issues?

Did you try serious pixelhunting for pick loot from wizard.

[samm]

My second impressions on the patched build have been way more positive than the first ones. Sure, there may be fundamental design issues still, but the game seems very playable now, and it looks (except the characters at creation time / in inventory) and reads and sounds good. Really pleased with the new lvl 1 Spell icons

 

Now optically, the one thing that bugs me is the 1px-circles around the characters when in Scout mode, especially the two around the NPCs and the yellow ones where the party is supposed to move to after clicking on the floor. I hope these areas will be shown in a more attractive manner in the final game.

 

Regarding gameplay, the movement speed is still annoying, especially the one of the enemies (Spiders!), even though they seem to have improved the game's flow - or my tastes have adapted. Also, the areas are to busy / crowded with enemy groups - yes, reminiscent of IWD 2 in a bad way, as Sensuki mentioned above.

 

 

 

All in all I'm quite confident that I'll be able to enjoy it a lot upon release, mostly by ignoring potential improvements to the game's design mentioned in these forums, and play it for how it is

Edited September 6, 2014 by samm

[morhilane]

 

 

Been playing the beta some more. It seems like I have less hp than before. Strange. Also, the trash mobs are somehow even more tedious than before. Either the beetles need less hp, or they need to give us more health. No matter what the fighter needs more health. I don't want to be going back and forth to use the inn every other fight.

Is the issue that they' need fewer HPs, or is the poison from the beetles taking your fighter out?

 

Both really. The fights take too long and the enemies can dish out too much damage because they take too long to kill. Reducing their hp kills two birds with one stone.

 

 

It's not that they have too much HPs because they don't have that much. Beetles have high DT against everything but crushing damage. Use the Priest's Pillar of Faith on them or any crushing weapons and they die fast.

[Ink Blot]

 

Curious: has anyone had issues with crashes/corrupted saves in this build? I had an issue in a game last night where I couldn't loot a drop from the wizard at the dragon's nest. Loaded that game up this morning and it froze/crashed. Tried again and couldn't turn in the quest to Hendyna. Wiped the saves, and restarted Steam. I'll see if it makes a difference. I reported it in the bug thread, but was wondering if anyone has had similar issues?

Did you try serious pixelhunting for pick loot from wizard.

 

Eventually found it on the third run. Seems to be only a couple pixels in size for that particular drop.

[Jon of the Wired]

 

One thing I'm concerned about is how DT interacts with fast, low-damage weapons. I think the idea is good in theory, but for light weapons to have a place they need to do significantly more damage against lightly armored enemies than heavier weapons and there needs to be enough lightly armored enemies, even at high levels, so that light weapons are viable throughout the whole game. Otherwise there's just no point in ever using them.

 

And that's a bad thing? That you can upgrade to better weapons instead of continuing to use your 'viable' butter knife against enemies near the end of the game? Please no, none of this making everything viable balancing philosophy.

 

I'm not suggesting a butter knife should be viable, but that I should be able to get some mileage in the late game out of my +5 Dagger of God-slaying. I do think it's a bad thing for the set of viable tactical options to narrow in the late-game. It should, if anything, be the opposite.

[Bulkbu]

 

It's a combination of really small maps, larger character and creature sizes, fast movement speed and the Health damage ratio being wrong.

Combination of the above totally ruins the wilderness exploration feel

 

Oddly enough it makes it feel more like an Icewind Dale 2 map. Icewind Dale 2 did a lot of things way worse than the BGs/IWD so it's not a good example to follow in many cases.

 

You remind me of how weird I find the general tendency of finding people who praise Icewind Dale 2. In my opinion, Icewind Dale 2 is by far the worst game out of the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games. The UI is inferior, skill icons lack quality, the maps and level design are inferior, the atmosphere is not even close as good and even the highly praised combat is not as fun as in Baldurs Gate 2 to me.

[siril_dana]

Ok, so, you still can't center the camera to a character with shortcuts, or I don't know how to do it. I still find the transition circles super anoying. Besides individual stealth and the stealth circles I think everything else is enjoyable.

 

Edit: I forgot, still can't split party when entering a house... lame!

Edited September 7, 2014 by siril_dana

[Sarex]

You remind me of how weird I find the general tendency of finding people who praise Icewind Dale 2. In my opinion, Icewind Dale 2 is by far the worst game out of the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games. The UI is inferior, skill icons lack quality, the maps and level design are inferior, the atmosphere is not even close as good and even the highly praised combat is not as fun as in Baldurs Gate 2 to me.

 

Strange, to me combat and atmosphere are head and shoulders above any IE game, even the soundtrack is up there. Though IWD2 was my first IE game so our impressions may differ there.

[PrimeJunta]

More second impressions.

 

I managed to play almost to the end with a druid until I got bored and quit. (I don't save games because of the... risks involved.)

 

The druid is one of the cool and interesting classes to play, although the Wild Shape thing doesn't work ATM. As in, when I apply it, I turn into a completely useless pile of meat. I don't attack anything, instead I just twitch, and eventually get beat down. I look forward to that working like it should.

 

But the spells are cool. There are lots of possible synergies with the wizard; use one spell to depress a defense and another to attack it. The DoT's are pretty lethal too. The spell selection also feels more imaginative and varied than the wizard's basic repertoire of (damage type) in (point/cone/line/circle). The effects are pretty neat too. So yay for the druid, up there in the "want to plays" with the cipher, chanter, barbarian, and paladin.

 

I've gone on enough about the lack of combat feedback that I'll complain about something else.

 

By now I'm fairly confident that I'm not playing the game completely wrong although I'm sure I can get a lot better. I'm thinking about which defense to attack, using debuffs where applicable to lower that defense, and attacking. I'm also winning most fights fairly easily. This at Normal difficulty. And... those fights do drag on. Some of the enemy DoT effects seem overpowered (Deep Wounds, stacking spider poison), but other than that I get the feeling that hit points could be slashed in half all around (or, if you prefer, damage doubled), and the game would get a good deal more enjoyable. Or speed up the rhythm so we attack and cast about a quarter faster, and only nerf hit points by a quarter.

 

The combat lacks dynamism simply because it takes so long to bring down a target, even if you're doing it mostly right. For the bigger fights, that makes crowd control and area effects king; at least they can whittle down several targets at once. The overall rhythm also feels wrong because of the movement speed. Combat is a combination of frantic and tedious, as the characters scoot all over the place, then proceed to stab each other to death with what appear to be toothpicks for all the damage they do.

 

So, as this second impression: nerf the hit points, attack faster, and move slower. And make sure those DoT effects are in line with the regular attacks.

 

I believe this, plus better combat feedback, in particular engagement indicators, will go a long way to making the combat not feel like a chore.

[Sensuki]

Yeah it's either faster attacks, or reduce HP bloat. DT above 10 really amplifies HP bloat.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[Fiebras]

Be cool if you could make an Adra Beetle Shell Shield

Cyclopedia mentions the locals making shields and armor from beetle shells so Im sure we will at least see those in the final game.

[Tartantyco]

Like Ankheg Plate from Taerom Fuiruim.