A different view on the whole XP controversy

[Immortalis]

 

I would agree with that.. although I do agree with some of the nay sayers of combat xp on other topics.. When I see how disrespectful and rude they get I almost feel dirty agreeing with them on anything..

 

 

 

As a neutral on the whole XP issue, I don't think either side can claim to have the moral high ground.

 

 

I didn't say that did I? Not sure how neutral you are being.

[Immortalis]

@Gromnir I get brain hemorrhage from reading your posts.

 

But now Gromnir will state you're the schmuck for not being able to comprehend the semi-invented language and lax spell checking he does in almost any post.

 

It's like if I post in pig Latin and you tell me "wtf are you talking about" then I say that my pig Latin post is a detector for retards who I don't need to talk to anymore.. This literally makes sense to him and he even believes he's the mature one on this board.

 

I used to like Gromnir because I thought he didn't take himself too serious.. After 5 years.. I see this man has some deep seated issues I wouldn't even begin to try and tackle..

[Ganrich]

Of course, you still haven't explained in your Obsidian apologist way why PE's xp system is garbage but SRR's xp system is pretty darn good. Weird that.

 

Hard to do if you don't believe the PE system is indeed garbage.  I am leaning, at present, toward thinking the system could use more Objective XP dumps for exploring the maps, completing major map objectives (killing the spider queen maybe or sub-boss mobs in general), clearing the fog of war, etc.  I don't believe that just going back to a more pure kill XP system (I know the IE games had Quest XP too) is the necessary, nor necessarily the right, answer at present. 

 

Unrelated to your comment, Volourn, but I have seen people say that the fact that being able to skip clusters of enemies is bad.  I am kind of thinking it is an ok thing tbh.  Why would any rational being, from an RP perspective, wipe out an entire clearing of beetles?  Sure, they are hostile, but if you were trying to move through that area in RL wouldn't you avoid some of the clusters as well?  Isn't avoiding sections of combat a good thing?  It isn't like killing a couple of beetles is challenging?  A player playing on a harder difficulty looking for challenge may wipe EVERY map in the game of enemies, and their fun is in that challenge.  Another thing is that if you come across a crafting recipe that requires something the beetles drop then you may have a logical, in-game reason to clear them out.  You may also have one of those boring gather quests at some point (I hope not).

 

Eh, this is how I feel about it anyway.  To each their own though. 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

[Seari]

I don't really care about this debate. For me combat xp is fun. If combat isn't fun, then there not being combat xp is a good thing, so I can skip it and storyfag through the game.

 

As long as combat isn't fun, I'm okay with there not being combat xp.

[Zansatsu]

 

 

Hard to do if you don't believe the PE system is indeed garbage.  I am leaning, at present, toward thinking the system could use more Objective XP dumps for exploring the maps, completing major map objectives (killing the spider queen maybe or sub-boss mobs in general), clearing the fog of war, etc.  I don't believe that just going back to a more pure kill XP system (I know the IE games had Quest XP too) is the necessary, nor necessarily the right, answer at present. 

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

See now this is an Idea. This thread was about ideas not yelling at each other. We can do that in all the other xp threads.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Cantousent]

Please, folks, don't turn this thread into a Grom battle thread.  If you put aside his brusque manner, he is right about the fact that Obsidz has been pretty determined to stay the course.  I personally think there are some incremental things that they could do to improve the system that wouldn't cause much grief, but I think it's hard to get a good feel for these things from a beta or demo anyhow.  I mean, with a new system and brand spanking new setting, there's no way they can draw people into the story aspects in the scope of a beta, and so combat is even more important and it's a new system that will require time to decipher.

 

Grom, I swear if you attack me for sticking up for you, I'll... probably run away.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

 

I can see that being abused. Clear the appropriate percentage or most of the percentage that doesn't have enemies and get the xp reward. Yes, Obsidian please implement this now!

[Seari]

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

See now this is an Idea. This thread was about ideas not yelling at each other. We can do that in all the other xp threads.

 

How is that different or easier to implement than combat xp. I mean if you make it a marginal xp gain, might as well not have it, and if you make it substantial, then there might as wel be combat xp. At least that's how I understand it, but I'm half asleep so.

 

edit: Might as well have rare or "elite" enemies give xp or something. But this is pointless, you either have combat xp or you don't, no point in half arsed solutions.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[Ganrich]

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

 

I can see that being abused. Clear the appropriate percentage or most of the percentage that doesn't have enemies and get the xp reward. Yes, Obsidian please implement this now!

 

 

Fair, but not really any worse than completing a quest through diplomacy and killing them anyways for maximum XP.  Eh, it was one idea.  When I say Percentage I mean the majority, and only less than that on maps that are coastal that don't allow you to clear the Fog completely. 

 

The FoW needs to be fixed for this to work of course.  You shouldn't be able to see over rocks/walls/trees/ect. 

[Seari]

Oh you meant fog of war, well I don't like that, and no way they would implement something like that. Not that I'm against you guys and your ideas, but as I've said in the previous post.

Fair, but not really any worse than completing a quest through diplomacy and killing them anyways for maximum XP. 

 

This right here is the main problem with the mentality behind designing this game. If the players don't have the self-constraint to not do something like that, well then maybe they should **** off and play an mmo, instead of a Role-Playing Game.

[Ganrich]

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

See now this is an Idea. This thread was about ideas not yelling at each other. We can do that in all the other xp threads.

 

How is that different or easier to implement than combat xp. I mean if you make it a marginal xp gain, might as well not have it, and if you make it substantial, then there might as wel be combat xp. At least that's how I understand it, but I'm half asleep so.

 

edit: Might as well have rare or "elite" enemies give xp or something. But this is pointless, you either have combat xp or you don't, no point in half arsed solutions.

 

 

You think adding a system that gives XP on a map to map basis is equally difficult to balance than on an enemy to enemy basis?  What about harder difficulties with different enemy compositions (more, less, or different enemies)?  Maps remain constant across any play through.  Enemies don't which is something I am really excited about in PE.  I tend to play on normal on my first go, and then make it harder after that.  So new enemy comps/numbers = AWESOME.  I think we need to make some concessions based on the time Obsidian has to get it working...

 

I keep looking at Gromnir's quote in his signature:  "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."-George Bernard Shaw

 

I am trying to make concessions that are at least feasible given the time we have until this game launches.  Completely overhauling the XP system may, or may not, be feasible.  I am leaning toward it not being feasible.  I am trying to be reasonable.  I do agree that the system needs some work for sure, but I refuse to scream about it being broken and tell Obsidian that the game needs Combat XP.  It isn't helping.

[Ganrich]

Oh you meant fog of war, well I don't like that, and no way they would implement something like that. Not that I'm against you guys and your ideas, but as I've said in the previous post.

Fair, but not really any worse than completing a quest through diplomacy and killing them anyways for maximum XP. 

 

This right here is the main problem with the mentality behind designing this game. If the players don't have the self-constraint to not do something like that, well then maybe they should **** off and play an mmo, instead of a Role-Playing Game.

 

I don't disagree, but I could say the same thing about people who want kill XP to justify combat need to **** off and play an MMO instead of a RPG. 

[Zansatsu]

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

See now this is an Idea. This thread was about ideas not yelling at each other. We can do that in all the other xp threads.

 

How is that different or easier to implement than combat xp. I mean if you make it a marginal xp gain, might as well not have it, and if you make it substantial, then there might as wel be combat xp. At least that's how I understand it, but I'm half asleep so.

 

edit: Might as well have rare or "elite" enemies give xp or something. But this is pointless, you either have combat xp or you don't, no point in half arsed solutions.

 

It isn't. I didn't highlight it because of that. This thread was, assuming combat xp would never happen, to be about ideas that Obsidian might bend on and get in. So if we had any common ground between the Hard core Quest XP's and Combat XP's to meet in the middle with Objective xp ideas. I think there is some.

[Ganrich]

Ah, my bad Zansatsu... I completely misread your post.  I am special.  Forgive me.

[Zansatsu]

I simply want more ways to gain experience than flat out questing. I would prefer the old tried and true fun as hell IE way but that is off the table. So where can we go from there?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Zansatsu]

Ah, my bad Zansatsu... I completely misread your post.  I am special.  Forgive me.

I didn't mean it like that. I like the fact that you put forth something instead of just shouting people down.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Ganrich]

I simply want more ways to gain experience that flan out questing. I would prefer the old tried and true fun as hell IE way but that is off the table. So where can we go from there?

I agree with this 150%. 

[Seari]

You think adding a system that gives XP on a map to map basis is equally difficult to balance than on an enemy to enemy basis?  What about harder difficulties with different enemy compositions (more, less, or different enemies)?  Maps remain constant across any play through.  Enemies don't which is something I am really excited about in PE.  I tend to play on normal on my first go, and then make it harder after that.  So new enemy comps/numbers = AWESOME.  I think we need to make some concessions based on the time Obsidian has to get it working...

 

I keep looking at Gromnir's quote in his signature:  "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."-George Bernard Shaw

 

I am trying to make concessions that are at least feasible given the time we have until this game launches.  Completely overhauling the XP system may, or may not, be feasible.  I am leaning toward it not being feasible.  I am trying to be reasonable.  I do agree that the system needs some work for sure, but I refuse to scream about it being broken and tell Obsidian that the game needs Combat XP.  It isn't helping.

 

I didn't really say the game needs combat xp, but maybe you're not talking about me. It's not broken and it doesn't need overhauling, it's time-saving desingwise, and unfortunately it is also boring. I'll miss it, but it isn't a deal breaker.

 

I don't disagree, but I could say the same thing about people who want kill XP to justify combat need to **** off and play an MMO instead of a RPG.

 

 

Well that's not really the same now is it, kill xp is a big part of any rpg, and it's understandable that people would be upset.

[Seari]

I simply want more ways to gain experience than flat out questing.

How about lockpicking.

 

I think people don't understand why obsidian decided to only have quest xp. It's easier to control the party level and whatever. Adding more ways, any way and not just combat, to gain xp makes it harder to control the experience level.

 

So my point is that combat xp wasn't removed because of the hassle of implementing it, but the hassle of controlling xp, character scaling. It takes a long time to balance it.

 

If there were to be any other xp gain, it would have to be marginal, and that's why I said it's pointless.

 

My eyes are barely open, so hopefully something makes sense.

 

Edit: IE games were about fun, the xp gained from combat/lockpicking/disarming/quests wasn't balanced that well. And that bring us back to the main problem with the mentality behind designing this game. Because apparently some people can't live with "exploits" or whatever, and balance precedes everything.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[Ganrich]

 

Well that's not really the same now is it, kill xp is a big part of any rpg, and it's understandable that people would be upset.

 

 

No, it is a big part of "most" RPGs.  Not all paradigms need to be replaced, but neither do all paradigms need to be upheld with impunity.  This debate is hot because it is (like the Health/stamina debate) fundamentalists vs progressives.  Instead of fighting we should look to compromise, and suggest something that would make both sides at least somewhat happy. 

 

It is very much the same though.  People do what they do because of XP incentives in an RPG.  If the developer/DM wants players to beat all the baddies in an area they go with combat XP.  If they do not then they don't give XP for it.  People clear maps in BG because of XP.  They wouldn't have with a quest/objective XP system.  MMOs give you combat XP, the whole genre is built around it.  Not all RPGs are, nor should they be.  Role Playing Game is not synonymous with Combat XP simulator.  You play a role, and to some that means a role in combat, but to others it means a character archetype within a setting.  Neither is wrong, because an RPG is built around both of those things.  However, in cRPGs those 2 sides can clash. 

 

In PnP games most DMs I have played with, and myself included as a DM, do not give out xp after every combat.  Most tally it after the session, before the session, or after certain sections of the campaign.  This is to keep from interrupting the flow.  Even though handbooks show XP amounts for enemies the DMs work on a more quest/objective based system.  I don't reward combat as a whole because sometimes I have laid an encounter that allows fairly simple ways to bypass a fight (leveling a building with a bad guy in it instead of combat, stealth, diplomacy, etc). 

 

You can't do this in a cRPG nearly as well as a DM can.  However, you can get away with not requiring your players to kill everything on every map and remain equally rewarded to a player that does.  This system doesn't have a balance there atm, and I admit that.  However, a compromise can be found. 

 

Ideas for Objective XP dumps other than clearing FoW and sub-boss XP:

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ganrich

[Ganrich]

 

 

So my point is that combat xp wasn't removed because of the hassle of implementing it, but the hassle of controlling xp, character scaling. It takes a long time to balance it.

 

If there were to be any other xp gain, it would have to be marginal, and that's why I said it's pointless.

 

 

 

I agree with this, for the most part.  However, Objective XP are stagnant.  They never change from game to game, or difficulty setting to difficulty setting.  Quests are the same way.  They can easily be managed.  Much easier than combat XP in PoE since the enemies change based on Difficulty.

 

I don't know if those XP gains have to be marginal, but I understand your point. 

 

Also, I am also bleary eyed.  Thanks for hanging around to discuss this.  I am enjoying it.  Cheers. 

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

 

I made similar suggestions here. Especially as it pertains to the Cyclopedia because as I see it Lore is pointless atm.  Really all the enemy Information will be posted online not far from launch so by giving some reward for filling it out seems right to me.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68164-a-different-view-on-the-whole-xp-controversy/?p=1500282

[Ganrich]

 

 

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

 

I made similar suggestions here. Especially as it pertains to the Cyclopedia because as I see it Lore is pointless atm.  Really all the enemy Information will be posted online not far from launch so by giving some reward for filling it out seems right to me.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68164-a-different-view-on-the-whole-xp-controversy/?p=1500282

 

Yup!!  I agree.  Lore is a conversation/scripted event skill atm as far as I am concerned.  It is for people who want to play the Hermione Granger type of know-it-all.  I do like playing those types of smarties though. 

 

As long as Obsidian makes it so an NPC with Lore also helps fill out the Cyclopedia entries... I am fine.  I wouldn't be crest fallen if they gutted the link between lore and the Cyclopedia though. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Ideas for Objective XP dumps other than clearing FoW and sub-boss XP:

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

 

 

 You're substituting combat xp which people argue can be abused with other systems that can be abused? The Cyclopedia? Lure one beetle and kill it with a party of 6. Then lure another beetle and kill it. etc. The same with other enemies. Lure one enemy, kill it. Lure the same enemy on its own and kill it. That page is now complete and you're rewarded with xp by luring one enemy out at a time. And with awarding Crafting with xp, that can be abused as well.

 

The way I see it, the more you go from the current system in PoE and introduce other suggestions like the Cyclopedia or crafting while ignoring the xp systems that were in the IE games like combat xp, the more players will find ways to abuse that system. And Obsidian probably knows this.

[Zansatsu]

See we can agree on things! Also giving xp for filling out the Cyclopedia is sort of a nice objective that gives people on both sides a more satisfying reason to engage in combat.  For the quest Xp people it is tied to a real ingame reason for doing such things and it would also help satisfy people who feel that they have made combat pointless.